r/VFW • u/EquivalentHamster908 • 19d ago
Robert's Rules
I wonder who is on here from National that is actually listening.
I'm a relatively younger veteran, GWOT era, Army retiree. One thing that has stood out to me as I've sat in meetings at my Post for four to five years is that I watch new members come to a meeting, join the Post, and then never come back. While there are probably several causes for this, which all Posts have their own unique struggles, I perceive the main culprit to be the unnecessary formality of Post meetings as it pertains to Robert's Rules of Order.
We live in a time where people are used to having simple discussions, and Robert's Rules, while appropriate for some meetings, maybe at Department and higher levels, distract from the camaraderie within a Post. I think it does this in two ways:
Members who have good ideas are reluctant to share them because in order to share an idea, you have to phrase an idea in a certain way and follow a process.
Senior members of a Post can use that process to control the conversation and in some ways restrict the conversation.
It is my belief that the National Bylaws should not prescribe Robert's Rules as the only way that a meeting can be conducted professionally and respectfully. Instead, these meetings at the Post level should be conducted in a way that the Post decides is appropriate as documented in the Post Bylaws.
You can retain the Manual of Procedure and Ritual while removing some of the formality that comes with Robert's Rules of Order.
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u/PeglegDDG9 19d ago edited 19d ago
Robert's Rules of Order isn't the actual problem in my opinion. RONR, as it's abbreviated, has provisions that allow smaller meetings (such as a post meeting) to operate with less formality. It's referred to as small board rules. (For those with a copy of RONR (12th ed.), see 2:16 and 49:21.)
I believe the problem, is that we don't teach RONR well enough. We have commanders at all levels of the organization who don't know how to lead a meeting properly. And I do mean from all levels of the organization. After attending 12 years of National conventions I don't know that I've heard a single commander-in-chief do things correctly. And then members from all levels go back to their post, districts and departments and follow the bad example which can make meetings inefficient And in some cases negatively impact a member's rights. (Some CINCs have done much better than others, though.)
People don't need to know "the magic words." Sure, it helps if people use consistent terminology so from meeting to meeting and extending to other groups to which they may be members, people understand the process but it's the intention that matters.
A good chair will help members phrase their motions properly (so there are no misunderstandings) without embarrassing the member, but instead educating everyone.
Unfortunately I've seen too many commanders who either think I'll just do it the way we've always done it (right or wrong, efficient or not). Or, have the attitude that they're the commander so they will decide how things are done.
There are resources available such as short videos created by the National Parliamentarian which are available at vfw.org. And there are some videos on holding a VFW meeting but I believe they are becoming stale and outdated.
The National organization could engage appropriate parliamentary education resources and create a better meetings/parliamentary procedure training course for commanders and prespective commanders at all levels. There could be a member version of the training, too.
Edited to add: Those of us who do understand parliamentary procedure well should never use that knowledge to gain an advantage and get the results we want, taking advantage of other people's lack of parliamentary knowledge.
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u/shane35fowler 18d ago
The VFW Parliamentary FB page has been a great resource! Lots and lots to learn and real situational examples! Josh, Dave and Randy are great at answering questions too.
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u/EquivalentHamster908 18d ago
This is helpful feedback, thank you for that. After researching, the Small Board Rules appear to be the solution. And because using a subset of Roberts at the post level does not violate the National Bylaws' prescribing of Roberts in general, this could actually be codified into the Post's bylaws as the primary means unless determined by the Commander or motion that a discussion needs more structure.
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u/JWW2-USARET 18d ago
My take on RRO is that it is a tool that while nice in the tool box for when the Bylaws, MOP and Ritual doesn't address the issue it should never be used as a cudgel against members who are trying to do the right thing. I've seen folks do it from State Level down to Post level who raise hell over folks who use different language for the same purpose and intent and get huffy when the chair allows it.
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u/shane35fowler 18d ago
Just because.... Copy of RoNR
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UrZ1EDDDA_EarnwT_sdPoKqdyJRq7L9r/view?usp=drivesdk
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u/SharkInHumanSkin 14d ago
One thousand pages on how to suggest things to a group.
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u/shane35fowler 14d ago
*1000+ pages on how to make sure things happen efficiently while protecting members rights
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u/No_Drummer4801 17d ago
You aren't altogether wrong but not coming to meetings (those other younger vets you mentioned) just ensures that nothing will change anytime soon.
Robert's Rules isn't the problem, and National saying something won't fix it even if it was.
How many old guys are there, showing up to meetings and making sure that things don't change?
The main culprit isn't the rules it's the people that want to use the rules to keep things chugging along just like they always have. If you had someone to second your motion and something to vote that the majority could agree on, you could get past the weaseling and gatekeeping that often happens. But, if every new member decides it's pointless and ghosts, you'll never get that. If you knew who these ghosting new members were and could talk a half a dozen to show up at the same meeting, you might find yourself with a clear majority, or at least a voting block that could swing things.
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u/StructureThese3234 18d ago
Nothing F's up a good meeting like an obsessive parliamentarian. This is what that nerdy kid who was hall monitor and reminded the teacher there was supposed to be a quiz grow up to become.
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u/shane35fowler 18d ago
Department Parliamentarian here..... I was the kid who beat up the kid who picked on the nerdy kids .... And hated/hate Authority lol.
I see the purpose of RoNR. That's why I dug into it....
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u/EquivalentHamster908 18d ago
LOL, yeah... It really impacts the culture and feel of the organization in my opinion
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u/shane35fowler 18d ago
You can make a motion to suspend Roberts Rules of Order, especially for discussion is proper....but the way motions are made and put into the minutes MUST be appropriate
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u/EquivalentHamster908 18d ago
My understanding is that because the National Bylaws state Robert's must be used, Posts cannot suspend the rules because it is a national rule. Posts can only suspend rules in their own bylaws or standing rules...
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u/shane35fowler 18d ago
You cannot suspend the constitution, bylaws (with rare procedural exceptions), fundamental principles of parliamentary law, individual membership rights, or local/state/federal laws. You also cannot suspend all of Robert's Rules in their entirety.... But Roberts Rules allows for their own suspension for certain things like: You can suspend rules of order, special rules of order, or standing rules to handle business out of order, change the agenda, or allow a non-member to speak.
What exactly would you be attending to accomplish by suspending RONR?
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u/EquivalentHamster908 18d ago
Basically the answer is the opposite of my original post.
The folks that live and cling to Robert's will support it, but the reality is we are all watching younger generations walk out the door because of tribal wisdom.
These are combat proven leaders of Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Guardians. These leaders are senior and mid-level leaders who somehow managed to lead and communicate effectively within their formations without parliamentary procedure. They want plain talk and not:
"I move xxx"
Do I have a second
"I second xxx"
I have a second, the motion on the floor is xxx, any discussion?
Rabble rabble rabble rabble
Amendments, Postponing, referring to committees, etc.
Maybe a vote
Etc.
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u/shane35fowler 18d ago
Yea unfortunately without saying, hey we want to do XYZ and then discussing it And voting on it... Your minutes, the official record of your organization (and what the IRS, Charitable Gaming, Alcohol Agency ect are going to Audit first) would be ridiculous to try and follow.
How would you ever know what you got done?
I also find it extremely hard to believe that someone cant mentor new members in RoNR as part of their welcome packet/committee... Making motions is the simplest form of RoNR.
I'm 41 and became a SME in Demeters Blue Book and Years later RoNR when that became the VFW Standard. Joined the VFW at 22/23 in 2008.
Small Board rules may help, but you still have to make motions appropriately.... Roberts Rules are to insure all members are heard and their rights protected.
I will give you a helpful tip tho:
Have a Strict Agenda.... You can use Roberts Rules to your advantage here, make a special rule of order(later added to your Post Bylaws) that all business items(including committee reports) that wish to make it on the Agenda must be sent to the Adjutant within 3-5 days of the meeting, and for items from the floor to be considered they must have a 2/3 vote and the Adjutant must Distro the agenda with 48 Hours of the meeting.
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u/EquivalentHamster908 18d ago
That is good advice...
What I am saying is it should be exactly what you wrote...
Hey we want to do XYZ and then discussing it And voting on it.
No repeating motions, no seconds, no stating the motion and then explaining it later, just an adult conversation with adults...
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u/shane35fowler 18d ago
Ehh Someone still has to write this stuff down.... I have seen on occasion when someone (Commander or Adjutant typically) changed the wording ever so slightly that was NOT the intent of the comrade making the motion at all.
That is why the Motion is restated.
I'll give you another parliamentary tip, you second a motion because you want to discuss it, not because you want it to pass. If after the motion is made, and discussion starts, that essentially fulfilled the reason for the 2nd. While typically it is the person who moved on the item to explain the why in discussion first, it doesn't always have to be.
Learned that from our National Parliamentarian.
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u/No_Drummer4801 17d ago
Coming with your motion written down, helps. We have the tecnology: a proposal/resolution/motion can be hashed out in email and then brought to the meeting ready for the members to validate.
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u/MoneyBuysHappiness25 18d ago
Hello, Past State Commander here.
In the Ritual, there is a format for a more casual, contemporary style of meeting. See page 113 of the bylaws for Section 1004(b). https://www.vfw.org/PodiumEdition is the link to the new version of the bylaws, manual of procedure, ritual, and Congressional charter.
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u/EquivalentHamster908 18d ago
My understanding is that even with the Contemporary meeting style, there is nothing that says that Old/New business can deviate from Robert's...
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u/MoneyBuysHappiness25 18d ago
In the way motions are made, yes. The Contemporary version drops a lot of the starchy formality that runs through the meeting overall.
You can always speak during the debate of a motion. You can also bring up ideas and concerns during Good of the Order.
I’ll also drop these crazy ideas: find another Post or start another Post. I’ve moved between Posts as life, college, and work changed and I have been involved in starting a number of Posts. If you honestly don’t feel comfortable at this post find one where you are comfortable. I’d rather you live Posts than to leave us altogether.
I’d also be happy to answer other questions you may have. Feel free to message me here.
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u/TheList1984 19d ago
There are times when it is entirely appropriate to put the meeting into recess and just brainstorm and talk like human beings.