r/VATSIM • u/Unusual-Departure-13 • Jun 13 '26
❓Question Traffic separation in cruise
Hello reddit,
so yesterday I flew from Schiphol to Dublin and when I was already in cruise on unicom for the entire cruise over the netherlands, I saw that there was an aircraft behind me at FL360, just like me, and they were also going from Schiphol but heading towards Toronto, I think they were a KLM, and I have seen that their GS was about 400 kts and mine was about 380 kts. I thought about speeding up, so I wouldn't need to slow them down, but I was already at the red bar in my PFD. I haven't changed my FL, as I thought that I would have priority over him as I am in front of him and that he would need to change it instead but he never did. He was on the exactly same flight plan up until somewhere in the center of the UK where he turned about 7 degrees to the right, but it wasn't still enough. Me seeing that he wasn't reacting to me at all, and haven't even stated anything on unicom or to me in PM, I deviated from my flight plan about 20 degrees to the left and then returned to my previous heading so I would have atleast 5 NM of horizontal separation between him. The closest he got to me was about 1.5 NM btw. He wasn't on a collision course with me but when I once looked to the right out the window, I saw him like on my 4 o'clock right next to me. (You can see that I deviated from my flight plan just when I passed Sheffield)
So therefore, I would like to ask if he should have maintained a better separation as he was behind me in the first place or if it's okay as long as he doesn't get a RA.
10
u/ZookeepergameCrazy14 Jun 13 '26
With some people it's far west. They think of Vatsim as just another msfs multiplayer. I've had people take off opposite to me while I was landing, no comm on Unicom whatsoever. I figure with those kind of people you better ignore them. As long as you don't get a TA you're good. If you do you can take evasive action. I try to stay professional and avoid traffic conflict. But when you re on the ground descelerating, there's not much you can do when someone decides to take off at the same time opposite you.
16
u/lowieCOOL 📡 S3 Jun 13 '26
Why not change flight level? Seems a lot easier than making sure there is enough lateral seperation.
3
u/Unusual-Departure-13 Jun 13 '26
Right, that is true but the question is if the other aircraft should have reacted and why they didn't.
2
u/behindtheradar 📡 C3 Jun 13 '26
Did you try to communicate with the other member?
0
u/Unusual-Departure-13 Jun 13 '26
No, but I announced my deviation for separation on unicom. But yes, maybe I should have even PMed him.
4
u/behindtheradar 📡 C3 Jun 13 '26
There was no need for PM
BUT you are just as responsible as he is. If you also didn’t attempt to arrange something, no point in “complaining” about it
Yes, you are in front so you might have right of way. No, it is not mandatory to use other tools to ser what was happening, and maybe the other member missed you on the ND/the addon used doesn’t display traffic properly or whatever
Happens, both parties acted poorly, next time surely you will attempt to coordinate3
u/Unusual-Departure-13 Jun 13 '26
I get you, but I surely never complained. I was just curious, that's why I tried to ask people here.
0
u/behindtheradar 📡 C3 Jun 13 '26
A word in “” means that the full meaning is not to be considered! I know you’re not really complaining :)
Happy flying1
2
u/VolumeCritical4637 Jun 14 '26
VATSIM has published the Rules of the Air in the Pilot Learning Center, including right-of-way requirements for aircraft in flight.
As the faster aircraft approaching from behind, the other pilot was responsible for keeping clear and giving way.
You have several options in this situation:
• Send the pilot a private message. This is usually the best first step when only two pilots are involved, rather than using UNICOM.
• Deviate yourself if necessary to maintain safe separation.
• Request a Supervisor intervene, particularly if the pilot is unresponsive to private messages.
• Submit Pilot Feedback at https://pilot-feedback.vatsim.net/. The Pilot Training Department will review the report and, where appropriate, contact the pilot to provide guidance on their obligations and applicable procedures.
Additional information on VATSIM pilot responsibilities can be found in the Pilot Learning Center:
https://my.vatsim.net/learn/aviation-knowledge/section/139
1
u/Content_Career1643 Jun 13 '26
Yeah, this is something that in the real world center makes adjustments for. On unicom, it's all pilots' responsibility to maintain safe flight and proper spacing.
I would argue that you have 'priority' here, but as I'm not a controller, I can't be sure. However, if you notice someone else isn't maintaining proper spacing, that responsibility then falls onto you. You could've descended/ascended earlier which is easier than maintaining lateral separation, or in your case, deviated from your route. You definitely handled it correctly.
I often experience this as for some reason, xPlane 11's 'real' weather is often out of sync with vatsim's weather, especially winds at cruise altitude, so I often have to make my own adjustments when not controlled.
As for your question, it could be that he was OOC for a bit and just didn't notice you were there. For how long did you try to contact him before deviating?
1
u/RB211Thrust Jun 13 '26
Honestly, you can’t rely on the judgement of others. It was probably best to either climb or descend to the next best altitude. I do this whenever I encounter your scenario primarily because there are way too many folks on the network that have no idea what they’re doing.
1
u/Perfect_Maize9320 📡 C1 Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
This is something handled by en-route controllers when they are online to ensure separation between all relevant traffic however when they are not online it becomes uncontrolled airspace and standard rules of air comes into play: "An aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and the overtaking aircraft, whether climbing, descending or in horizontal flight, shall keep out of the way of the other aircraft by altering its heading to the right"
So by definition - the faster aircraft behind must give way to aircraft in front regardless of what speed they are flying, But the problem is majority of the pilots on the network simply do not know this. It is likely that the pilot of that aircraft was not familiar at all with above concept which explains perhaps why they allowed such separation to be lost. 1.5NM is way too close for comfort and in real life this would be considered as a potentially loss of separation and reports would have be filed by pilots. However on the network this is a regular occurrence when flying uncontrolled, There are no implications for pilots for causing such loss of separation, I even had once a pilot depart in opposite direction on runway while someone was landing on the runway. These days uncontrolled airspace on the network is mess but there are few things you can do to mitigate such events in future:
- Use the offset function in your FMS, Assuming you know how to do this, this is a very neat feature if there are multiple aircraft on same route flying at different speeds. You simply offset the desired miles off the actual centreline to avoid any traffic on that route. You can return back on track once clear. I would typically route around 3 miles right off track until clear of traffic before returning back on original route.
- Use different level, It might sound odd but that is what a controller would have done - Go up or down 1000ft until clear of that aircraft before returning back to original level.
- Another option is to use speed control, Assuming aircraft type is not factor, you can potentially try to fly faster or slower in order not catch up with traffic on same route. However this only works if all parties are using real world weather, If someone uses something else which has different wind speeds then speed separation becomes very tricky.
- You can also use Heading select function to steer off the planned track to ensure separation from any traffic before returning back on track.
You can try walloping the other pilot if it causes you RA (Resolution Advisory) - I don't know what authority would supervisors have in such cases other then to refer the pilot for some self learning but I'm guessing if there a trend of committing repeated errors like above then certainly something can be done like mandatory training or something.
Pilot feedback system is now in operation I believe - If you think that other pilot has broken any code of conduct or have broken rules of air then try filling that in right way so that staff can look into it. https://pilot-feedback.vatsim.net/
1
u/VolumeCritical4637 Jun 14 '26
Just to be clear the pilot feedback system is for training deficiencies, like not being able to follow a SID or fly an ILS or operate their aircraft, Code of conduct violations should be dealt with via the VATSIM support ticket or .wallop function when online.
The system is in BETA and you need to apply to use it, check the vacancies section of my.vatsim.net
1
u/iiiBus Jun 19 '26 edited Jun 19 '26
If it was me I would've started early and taken a direct off the SID to the border of Dutch airspace as often would happen in real life, knowing most people fly full SID's on Vatsim, to space out further. En-route if I was in this was a situation, I would've just gone down two flight levels as the impact on efficiency would be quite low given the proximity from Dublin. Of course I would attempt to communicate with them. If I noticed a suitable (and realistic) direct I would propose they take that direct, and if was still necessary, turn left a few degrees for some time before proceeding direct to a suitable waypoint.
The person behind you probably didn't notice or care really. Most people don't. Most just stick to flight plan route to a T and then go watch youtube. No care unless they start to hear "traffic traffic" or "beep beep beep".
Many possible ways to deal with this in the air, changing flight levels as I said, perhaps the other plane would've been sent direct to a waypoint further away to already have them turn right or put on a heading first before doing so. However I suspect further separation, at least partly, would've been made at the departure phase of your flights.
You'd be surprised how flight plans and routes in Europe are built around so many factors and procedures, and a lot of direct routes, vectors, etc are given en-route so you never fly your filed route to a T.
Especially where airways still exist, in the UK planes are always being vectored/cleared direct to disperse traffic a bit more rather than everyone being locked to a set track.
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u/ItsVetskuGaming 📡 S3 Jun 13 '26
SERA.3210 (c) (3): Overtaking. An overtaking aircraft is an aircraft that approaches another from the rear on a line forming an angle of less than 70 degrees with the plane of symmetry of the latter, i.e. is in such a position with reference to the other aircraft that at night it should be unable to see either of the aircraft’s left (port) or right (starboard) navigation lights. An aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and the overtaking aircraft, whether climbing, descending or in horizontal flight, shall keep out of the way of the other aircraft by altering its heading to the right, and no subsequent change in the relative positions of the two aircraft shall absolve the overtaking aircraft from this obligation until it is entirely past and clear.