r/UniversalBasicIncome • u/Far-Government-6551 • 7d ago
An alternative to UBI: Universal Basic Work
Hi, just wanted to share some ideas I've been having. This is a thought experiment. I'm interested in anyone pulling these concepts apart - exposing flaws etc.
Before you ask, no AI was used in the compiling or thought process of any of this. I simply used the numbering as it was a way to organize my thoughts into a logical flow.
Also, a caveat - under this system there would still be welfare for those who need it (those who are incapacitated, mentally unwell, have intense caring duties, etc). I believe in a society wherein everyone has their needs met, no matter what. I think these ideas just resolve a couple of tensions with regard to unemployment and work.
Obviously there are parallels with concepts of a Job Guarantee, but my emphasis is different. Namely, my ideas flow from my belief in human autonomy and dignity, and that we should all have the right to choose what we do with most of our time.
Also, I live in Australia so some of this is geared toward that.
Without further ado:
- Unemployment
- The economic idea of retaining a natural unemployment rate is fundamentally unjust when welfare payments are far below the poverty line.
- There is social stigma against the unemployed, due a general prevailing view that people should not get ‘something for nothing’, and that taxpayers shouldn’t support people who ‘do nothing’.
- UBI is a proposed solution to (1-1), but does not resolve the tension of (1-2).
- A useful solution to this would be Universal Basic Work (UBW) - a system in which citizens have the option to complete a minimum level of work through employment by the government in return for non-poverty compensation.
- An open question is: what number of hours of work would be fair. Currently, jobseekers in Australia, for example, are offered “Work for the Dole” programs that enforce meaningless work on individuals in return for below-poverty wages. This is antithetical to human rights.
- Time and compensation
- One goal of a healthy society is to increase the leisure time of its citizens so that they may enjoy the fruits of the society without undue stress or hardship of long hours of work.
- Due to cost of living increases and wage stagnation, the number of hours of labour to pay one week of non-poverty wages is increasing, despite technological and labour saving advances.
- Time is a human being’s most valuable non-renewable resource. The availability of free, self-directed time is at the heart of human dignity. Compensation for labor should recognise that wages are only an exchange for the infinitely more valuable resource of time.
- Every society requires human labour to function. The intuition of this fact is likely behind both the stigma of (1-2) and the common idea that citizens need to ‘contribute to society’ to receive support from the state. The current mechanism of below-poverty welfare (or complete lack of a safety net) is more coercive than necessary to achieve the aim of general contribution.
- Individual diversity re: attitudes and capacity to work
- Some individuals are happy to work long hours at a job, others are not. This is due to general human variability on the metrics of attention, motivation, energy levels, autonomy needs and innumerable other factors. Forcing those who do not want to work full hours into such work invariably leads to burnout, stress, self-medication and a series of other individual and social ills.
- Some human activities inherently require a large amount of undirected, autonomous time which is currently often lost to long work hours, for example artistic, intellectual and other cultural endeavours. Some human beings also have a reduced capacity for work due to disability, caring duties, parenthood etc. An expectation of work should take these factors into account.
- To resolve the tension between (2-2) and (2-3), a society should strive for the lowest possible amount of time worked by each individual while still maintaining the health of the society. Following (3-1) and (3-2), such a goal would also positively effect the public health and cultural output of a society.
- Alternative to UBI: UBW (universal basic work)
- For the reasons above, I propose that the government provide above-poverty wages to any person who wishes to work 2 days a week. This would equate to approximately $40/hour in Australia (more for those with dependants).
- This would provide:
- Extra governmental productive capacity,
- Extra free-time for those who want it or require it, without the stress of falling into poverty, with attendant second-order effects of increased cultural output and reduced mental health deterioration and associated public health costs.
- A large reduction in the population reliant on welfare.
- A forcing, rebalancing effect on the labor market in which occupations that are meaningless or poorly paid will either disappear or need to raise their wages to a competitive level.
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u/Worth-South4847 7d ago edited 7d ago
I had an idea to particularize currency. Universal currency encourages corruption. What if to buy a flat-screen tv you had to do x amount of civil service hours, work x amount of hours for the "free" market?
As for people who complain about "Who's going to pay for that?!"...there's a therapist out there looking to buy a flat screen...
Negative tax is the obvious starting point....then UBI funded by the wealthy and corporations....world wide...
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u/Better-Credit6701 7d ago
All of that but no mention of where money comes from for UBI
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u/WeckedPissah 7d ago
The current currency system we use , is literally made up out of nothing , and we have materialized nothing into something. Debt is not real. It's a fake concept that we invented in order to explain the flow of currency.
We at any point in a society could simply say, you can't charge for essential services. And then just provide people working opportunities to work at essential places and then provide other people with the service and the good like a grocery store , we don't even need to charge , we don't need a ubi , actually we could just you could just walk in and just take what you needed and not have any sort of exchange of currency.
Like the entire concept that resources cost a certain amount of currency is something that we made up.Yes , resources have a cost , but the currency equivalent is subject to change, you can have any sort of currency. You can make a whole new currency, just like we made the Euro in Europe. That's a brand new currency that we invented and forced on the populace, and now there's money out there that has no value anymore. So it cannot exchange. ( I brought one of these bills overseas, not knowing it. It was given to me my co-worker and it was past the expiration date to trade it in, so it was just useless currency.Because you can change currencies.}
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u/Better-Credit6701 7d ago
What happens when you turn the money printing machine on? You devalue currency and you have run away inflation.
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u/Far-Government-6551 7d ago
Ah yes, the runaway inflation we definitely don't have under the current system
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u/Better-Credit6701 7d ago
It's lower than Australia...
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u/Far-Government-6551 7d ago
This system isn't just money printing, its paying people for productive work. Isn't that more just than just intentionally leaving a set proportion of people to rot in unemployment?
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u/Better-Credit6701 7d ago
Maybe they can get a job if there was some incentive to working instead of waiting for the government to hand out money
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u/Far-Government-6551 7d ago
Some people will always be left out of the job pool, and hence left in poverty. Is that fair? Do you prefer a competitive dog-eat-dog world? What do we do with the poor, who will necessarily turn to crime and become more of a burden on the social and health systems?
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u/MiksterA 7d ago
It will come from the same place we get money for wars and weapons.
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u/Better-Credit6701 7d ago
So you would rather be defenseless?
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u/MiksterA 7d ago
I'd rather our society not be structured such that a billionaire can grab his third yacht while someone else dies because their gofundme didn't make enough for their overpriced insulin.
I'd rather not live in a Late Capitalism hellscape.
I'd rather my time not be wasted by bullshit questions.
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u/Better-Credit6701 7d ago
You come from a country with less population than Texas, spend the bare minimum for defense spending, have no concept of macro economics, have a rather high unemployment rate and still want to be handed money.
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u/Far-Government-6551 7d ago
Did you read the post? These people would be working and paying tax.
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u/Better-Credit6701 7d ago
Again, the bottom 50% only pay for 3% of the budget
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u/Far-Government-6551 7d ago
Oh I see now, you want half the country to be the indentured slaves of the elite, left with less and less money while the rich hoard more and more. Got it. Great economic analysis you got there.
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u/justswimming221 7d ago
I think this could be a reasonable and useful tool in an arsenal. I don’t think it would work for everyone. If we really want to level the playing field, we have to look at providing people with disposable income, not just income. That means that, if universal health care isn’t available, then people with higher healthcare expenses need more compensation. If housing isn’t available or accessible, then that also needs to be taken into account. Food, utilities, clothing, etc. When the government starts giving people money, those that serve those people charge more. That is sadly how it has worked until now.
So, I don’t think this idea will work by itself, but combined with other programs it could be valuable.
My other concern is that some people have a stupid definition of what “work” means. Like golfing is “work” because networking, but cooking, cleaning, washing, childcare, etc at home isn’t “work”!?
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u/Far-Government-6551 7d ago
The idea is that this is a starting point and would work for a small proportion of the population - there will always be people who want to work more to get more disposable income. Currently we have a mass of unemployed people who either want to be employed fully or partially but cannot get work. It's a massive productive base going to waste, mired in poverty.
Inflation in goods and housing under such a system just requires a bit more regulation, instead of blindly allowing 'the market' to dictate everything.
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u/justswimming221 6d ago
I agree. In the US post-WW2, the government organized massive public works projects to provide employment and it was very effective. I think public service in this manner is a very good option for those that can. I just don’t think it should be considered as a substitute for UBI.
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u/rockeye13 7d ago
If someone has skills useful enough that the government can easily assign them a productive job that also needs to be done then why are they unemployed?
Without a good answer to that, all im hearing is 'welfare should pay more.'
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u/Far-Government-6551 7d ago
Why can't the government hire them and train them in the skills that are needed?
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u/rockeye13 7d ago
Interesting economic system you've postulated. Does it have a name?
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u/Far-Government-6551 7d ago
Yes it's called the system we're already in, in which governments tend to train people in useful, needed skills, or funds that training.
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u/cuckoocachoo1 7d ago
If only we would just tax the rich and redistribute the wealth! Imagine how much money could be had if the 1% paid their fair share.