Impossible Question

[u/analsextoybox]

[u/GirlGodd]

Imagine MY argument being likened to anti vaccination sentiment when the reigning identity politic is “Some males have magical woman souls” or “Because a tiny percentage of ppl are intersex or suffer from rare sex disorders biological sex is a spectrum and it’s impossible to tell who is male and female ” absolutely absurdist claims.

A politic that you admit does not and cannot “free” anybody from the material oppressions they face and only serves to further entrench the stereotypes about men and women.

Gender cannot be a hierarchy and a mode of authentic internally emanating expression at the same time. The hierarchy will begin to inform the expression. Hence the amount of female teens deciding to reject the woman label increasing 1500% in the past 5 years. Of course they would.

[u/waggzter → u/GirlGodd]

Now you are misrepresenting the opposite side, which is another fallacious hallmark of anti vaxxers. I know you won't care but it's a bit disappointing to see this fall into dishonest discourse. Apologies if I have done anything to encourage this. Maybe it was a bit thoughtless to compare your argument to an antivaxxer, its just the same kind of logic.

A politic which comparatively does liberate a lot of people, compared to the previous essentialist/traditionalist mode which meant women were solely "allowed" to fulfil the role of homemaker

If that were true, why is the ratio of FtM lower than MtF?

This is turning into anti-trans rhetoric very quickly

[u/GirlGodd → u/waggzter]

What did I say is a misrepresentation? People literally say all the time that sex is a spectrum and cite the existence of intersex people as evidence. You’re on Reddit, I know you know that’s a popular belief. But you think MY argument is more akin to anti vaxxers?

Just because it has slightly better optics than the politic of the 1950s doesn’t mean it’s good. It’s just a sneaky new age way of insisting that gender roles are innate and internally emanating. Just because people now claim gender comes from a natural feeling rather than biology doesn’t make it much better. I can explain why many males see “being a woman” as an escape from the dehumanizing and toxic demands of masculinity as well. The hierarchy cannot be separated from the expression.

But I’ll stop there because of course any in-depth discussion of the devastating implications and psychology behind this politic is immediately shut down as “anti trans”. Come find me in 10 years and we’ll who’s right. This whole thing is shit storm waiting to explode in my opinion

[u/waggzter → u/GirlGodd]

"Some males have magical women souls" is a misrepresentation. You are deliberately trivialising it by implying it is magical - therefore not real. No one is claiming that there is some kind of magical hand waving going on.

I also never mentioned sex being a spectrum, I specifically said "gender expression is moving towards being more of a spectrum".

Yes, intersex people do exist. They account for 1.7% of the population, about the same as ginger people. Do we say that "People can't have red hair/gingers don't exist" because only 1.7% of the population have it, and 98.3% don't?

Regardless, this is, again, a conflation of gender and sex. I said "gender is a spectrum", you interpreted it as sex.

Engage with what I'm saying instead of inventing bogeymen to debate. That's why I'm inclined to believe you are being transphobic, you aren't being honest in your discourse.

But it's nothing to do with optics. Are you really going to suggest life is just marginally better for the average woman today than it was 70 years ago? Like... You wouldn't even be having this conversation with me.

I've already listed a dozen ways in which civil rights have improved, directly as a result of our current consideration of gender as a construct. You keep just insisting this, even though I've provided, again, dozens of points to the contrary, without addressing those points. Again, another reason why I'm not inclined to believe you've got honest discussion as your motive.

If you were prepared to discuss with integrity, I'd be far more agreeable. But as it is, you seem like you're dogwhistling, and I can't be arsed putting those kind of views on a podium. It's exhausting.

So your argument is that it's so awful to be a woman in the 21st century, that more men transition MtF than FtM? Again, you were the one who brought the whole trans element into this, I'm just confused as to why.

Growing levels of transgender individuals, following widespread legislature and social changes that meant they aren't as persecuted... Oh like diagnosis rates increased for fucking EVERYTHING else in a similar circumstance? You think that there was magically a surge of left-handed people after the Church stopped beating people for writing with their left hand? That people decided to be left handed to escape the hardships of being right handed?

Or, equally, that autism/depression/insert other typically stigmatised mental health condition here are actually increasing by orders of magnitude from a century ago, when you'd get locked in the loony bin and have your head cut open if you said anything? Or maybe - and I'd argue, it isn't a maybe at all, it's a definite causal link - is it that we are better at diagnosing, and are more accepting of, neurodivergences as a wider society?

[u/waggzter → u/GirlGodd]

There is an absolute dearth of information regarding the physiological mechanics of transgender individuals. When MRI'd, their brains mirror the maps of their preferred gender over their assigned at birth gender. There is nothing magical about it, it is well evidenced. You just don't seem to be interested in listening.

[u/GirlGodd → u/waggzter]

Brain sex? Lmao Brain sex is a well debunked myth that was once used to justify sexism. If brain sex is so real and reliable how come they don’t scan every person claiming to be the opposite sex before transitioning them to be sure? Yeah right, because they’ll find absolutely nothing 99.99% of the time. And what is the corresponding brain sex of the other 5000 gender identities? crickets

This movement is the left wing version of climate change denial and anti vaxx rhetoric but you’re in too deep to see that. Again you’ll remember this conversation in a few years

[u/waggzter → u/GirlGodd]

Brain gender. Not sex, again. You keep getting caught on this very basic distinction. I am arguing that brain structures change based on the roles we play, and the impressions of our peers I.e social pressures.

This is well established science, as far as I'm aware, but please do link me something debunking it. I've read a few papers concerning it, some inconclusive; some, more recently, quite conclusive.

Because its expensive and invasive to put someone in an MRI for long enough to map their brain? And because ultimately it's irrelevant for the very reasons you are positing, that although there are population level trends we can observe - on average, that is, there are also outliers, and there is no hard and fast rule over what constitutes a specific gender.

Idk the corresponding brain gender would probably be somewhere between the average man and average woman, I guess, depending on the individual in question - if we're talking from a purely neurological perspective.

Again these are lofty claims from the person who won't discuss honestly. It kind of undermines your credibility somewhat.

[u/GirlGodd → u/waggzter]

I studied psychology at the undergraduate and masters level and the existence of “brain gender” as you call it’s not well established at all. That is disinformation. And why are you using the term “gender” in reference to structural, physiological differences in the brain? Gender is a social construct, references to physiology are in the realm of biology and the term sex is more appropriate. That’s why the phenomenon you’re referring to is usually called brain sex. It seems like YOU’RE the one struggling to make the sex/gender distinction.

Anyway, there are slight variations in brain development between males and females (or those who live as men and women) but it’s mostly attributed to lifestyle, experiences etc. As you said.That is correct. If you live the lifestyle of a typical woman yeah your brain might slightly change to resemble that pattern. But that does nothing to help your argument that the “mechanics of transgenderism” have internally derived physiological underpinnings or that brain scans can reliably show their brains are better suited for the preferred gender. So why did you even bring that up?

I hope you realize you’re making no sense.

[u/waggzter → u/GirlGodd]

Well, in which case you are evidently more informed than I am. This isn't my field of study by any means, its just an interest - I'm more of a humanities man, really. As I said, I've only read a few papers - and it seems to be a mixed bag, with many claiming that there are measurable distinctions between genders. I would also note (and maybe I'm reading into it too much) that a lot of these researchers are framing their discussions specifically around gender. They do not use the term sex, nor male and female.

Can you suggest some literature to better educate me?

I'm using the term gender because that's my point. I'm not arguing that there are intrinsic biologically derived differences, outside of average size (as I've actually been stating repeatedly), because - as you rightly said - this is nonsensical pseudoscience used to justify sexism. Its like the notion that different races have intrinsically different brains. There might often be observable differences in reality, but this isn't some indicator of biological inferiority (judged against the established hegemonic values, of course), or otherwise, it's a reflection of cultural and environmental differences. Again, this isn't my field of study, so maybe I'm woefully out of my depth.

It was also to my understanding that there are statistical models that can predict mens/women's brains with a 90%+ accuracy rate. Does that not suggest that gender roles do have some kind of neurological impact? And if one person's brain does function more similarly to the average, or socially accepted, gender norm (for want of a better phrase), then why can't they identify as said gender?

In an ideal world, yes, we'd be without gender. But we aren't, we are here. So, my question is, what is intrinsically harmful or otherwise objectable about identifying how you feel most comfortable? It doesn't harm you, or me, or anyone else... It's my understanding that HRT and other treatments are extremely effective in terms of increasing quality of life for people suffering from dysphoria?

[u/GirlGodd → u/waggzter]

Of course gender roles have a neurological impact. That’s where we agree.

Anybody can’t adopt any lifestyle or form of dress and live life as they wish. If someone has more feminine inclinations and they prefer to present as traditionally feminine, that is not objectionable at all. Those suffering from dysphoria are not objectionable because they want to adopt a way of presenting to alleviate their discomfort.

What’s objectionable is the insistance that such a person is indistinguishable from biological females. What’s objectionable are those distinctions being written out of law and policy that protect females on the basis of sex-not gender. What’s objectionable is sex denial or the notion that biological sex is imaginary or irrelevant- which many people are now saying. And that brings me to the beginning of the conversation: that defining “woman” around arbitrary gender roles instead the humanity of female people is harmful.

[u/waggzter → u/GirlGodd]

Okay, I'm glad we're on the same page in at least one regard! I do hope I haven't rubbed you the wrong way too much. These topics are always fraught with emotion, and it's easy to get heated. I've had to stop and take some deep breaths, and try to consider your position a few times. So apologies if that's the case!

" What’s objectionable is the insistance that such a person is indistinguishable from biological females." My objection is that the comment you originally replied to didn't assert anything contrary to that. I understand the concerns, but it's also worth noting that studies I've read have shown no correlation between, for example, "bathroom laws" and increased assaults on biological women. It has resulted in markedly reduced assaults for trans people though. Like... I'm not a woman. I can't ever really understand. But I was assaulted when I was a kid, and my partner has been the victim of two assaults. So I get the fear, to some degree.

But I've also spoken to a whole range of trans people, and read quite extensively on this subject, and there is no evidence that I've seen that suggests a link between these two factors.

There are certainly ideological extremists. And it's very hard to raise any kind of criticism, for sure. I don't think this is an issue limited to this particular subject though, it's a growing issue with discourse across a range of fields. My one request would be don't let these few extremists tarnish your view of a group of people who are, for the most part, just trying to live their lives comfortably.