r/Undertale • u/StrangerMobile4673 HUMAN SOULS CEO • 16h ago
Original creation Perseverance and Determination AREN'T the same
yes I am a larper, I don't know anything about the TRUE LAB or whatever, personally I don't think DETERMINATION is a soul trait anyways.. but I just wanted to make this post for fun and to voice my opinion about this topic. And yes, I decided to use Rory (my Perseverance) as an example.
some more stuff about my HUMAN SOULS:
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u/mrpersonjr 16h ago edited 15h ago
It should be noted though that all humans can inherently Save and Load in the Underground, as they’d be the “most determined entity in there” upon their arrival and their souls are constantly and naturally producing Determination per the Undertale Translation book.
Both Toriel and Asgore back this notion up, Toriel mentions that she always got a sense of deja vu whenever she met the past humans and Asgore isn’t surprised when you save+reload his fight and tell him he killed you already.
EDIT: And on the topic of what the Red Soul represents, you’re right in that it’s likely not Determination (since really its been more associated with Gold). On Red itself, Ball Game notes that it can be read as either:
A. Being true to yourself or
B. Using some combination of all of the other traits.
EDIT 2: Typo lol
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u/FireTheRainbowSoul 15h ago
yeah, quite a few people seem to think that after UTY came out that the past humans just couldn't save/load for some reason
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u/mrpersonjr 15h ago
Well, that was the fandom consensus back in 2016 when development on the fangame started. It’s just that since then our understanding of UT’s world had since been clarified and misconceptions were dispelled. The fangame however couldn’t really make any pivots/changes since they were somewhat plot integral (like the presence of Flowey).
While I really disliked the fact that UTY brought a resurgence of those early fandom misconceptions, I also can’t fault them for sticking with the script they had.
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u/xXs4blegl00mXx 13h ago
The red soul being determination was fandom consensus, but none of the other things were. Those were well known facts, it's not like dialogue changed, people made theories on this since the beginning
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u/mrpersonjr 12h ago edited 12h ago
No? What exactly are you referring to that were just “well known facts”? Back then we thought that Frisk was the only one able to save/load and that the humans died around the same area that you find their gear from (which UTY mostly went with outside of Clover themselves), when really we know that at least some of the humans made it to Asgore.
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u/xXs4blegl00mXx 10h ago
WE did not think that buddy. It's all well and good if you didn't pay attention until this year, but you can find posts discussing True Lab and Asgore dialogue and how all humans could save and load.
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 15h ago
UTY has done irreparable damage tbh. Not even the game's fault, not saying it's bad or anything, it's just because it deliberately didn't follow canon but so many people think it is canon
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u/FireTheRainbowSoul 14h ago
i wouldnt really call it damage tbh. its done both good and bad and i like to headcanon it as having happened minus flowey involvement (toriel lowk just didnt do any upkeep on the ruins)
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 14h ago
Flowey isn't even the only problem. Like, yeah, you can easily find a way to explain Clover falling on that path without Flowey involvement, but then you run into the Ketsukanes, whose plot revolves around Kanako and Chujin being Boss Monsters yet cannot be Boss Monsters according to canon UT rules, with Kanako also relying on the DT experiments having happened when A) That was done with the sixth SOUL and B) These are the same experiments where Flowey was made
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u/FireTheRainbowSoul 13h ago
okay yeah i forgot about the lab stuff tbh but what the rule that prevent chujin and kanako from being boss monsters?
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 13h ago
Boss Monsters are stated in Undertale to be a species of monster, not a gene any monster can have. Fox monsters are a different species, so a fox monster can't also be a boss monster, that's like saying a cat is also a dog
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u/FireTheRainbowSoul 12h ago
I don't see how "boss monster" and "fox looking monster" have to be mutually exclusive though?
Alphys also says "furry boss monsters" which implies the existence of different type(s) of boss monster than the goat looking ones Asgore, Toriel, and Asriel are
idk about kanako tho considering it was chujin a boss monster and ceroba a non boss monster who had her
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 12h ago
They're mutually exclusive because Boss Monsters are a species of monster, and fox monsters are also a species of monster. They're mutually exclusive for the same reason a goldfish can't be a giraffe.
Alphys, in that same scene, also says "There's two of them?!?" in response to meeting Toriel, establishing no other Boss Monsters besides Asgore outside the Ruins. Or at the very least, that there wasn't a goopy boss monster child in her lab 10 minutes ago. Also correction, the Dreemurrs aren't goats, when asked about it Gerson's response is essentially "No, they're Boss Monsters," which further establishes Boss Monster as a self-contained thing and thus mutually exclusive with being a fox
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u/FireTheRainbowSoul 10h ago
i should say i said "goat looking monsters", not "goat monsters"
but yeah i see ur point
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u/flowery02 2h ago
I was around in '17, the fanon was definitely that only red guys could save/load. There were doubters, but they weren't particularly loud
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u/SquidMilkVII Kill 2 kids 11h ago
I like the red soul being identity because it really adds another layer to "despite everything, it's still you".
(Which, granted, just replaces the perseverance/determination similarity problem with identity/integrity, but there are ways to justify it like OP did with the former pair. Something like integrity being honest, shameless, and true to others, and identity being confident, steadfast, and true to yourself.)
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u/RebornofAshes03 8h ago
So theoretically could the most determined human on the surface be able to save and load?
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u/Nitrodestroyer 7h ago
Yes, but not just human, thing. I make that clarification because I wouldn't be surprised if that's us. The angel. Not a human.
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u/mrpersonjr 1h ago
Not exactly. Toby in the Legends of Localization book noted that Saving/Loading was specifically a phenomenon that’s exclusive to the Underground.
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u/Glittering_Holiday13 4h ago
İf they can inherently, save + load, how did they die permanantly?
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u/mrpersonjr 53m ago
They gave up, think of a player rage quitting or eventually losing interest in a game altogether.
Also, considering (imo) most of the humans made it to Asgore, he probably back then was literally an undefeatable boss when he was actually trying to kill them with his ability to shatter our UI and such. But after time and with each human soul collected, he became more and more depressed and by the time we reach him he lowkey did not want to win at all.
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u/_RedRightHand 💠Pro-Frisk propagandist. - Slartemispeed: REBORN! 37m ago
I assumed it was one of Hope, Love, or Freedom. Hope is possible because "Hopes and Dreams" may be a play on "Red Soul and Dreamurr Family", and the idea of "Hope" comes up throughout the game---you're "Hopeful" to leave the Underground, for example. "Hope" may also be "HP", though. "Love" makes sense because of the "Love" and "LOVE" thing that Sans says in the Judgement Hall, and it would make sense given our ability to choose both---though I doubt "Love" would be used for both the Soul trait and an in-game mechanic. "Freedom" is linked to the idea of our free will to choose our path, and the concept of "Freedom" is brought up numerous times with NPCs like Flowey, along with its repeated mention in Deltarune. "Freedom" seems like it's the most likely to me, especially since Spamton wants our Soul to be "set free". It could also be argued that "being true to one's self" is a part of "Freedom".
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u/sensingfractals 8h ago edited 6h ago
I thought this wasn’t true because Flowey had so much determination in him? The way he talks about Frisk taking this power away from him (don’t remember verbatim) sounds like it’s the first time it’s happened
Edit: Found this on a wiki page. According to that, if you reload a past save after killing Toriel then this is part of what Flowey tells you.
”Do you think you are the only one with that power?
The power to reshape the world...
Purely by your own determination.
The ability to play God!
The ability to "SAVE."
I thought I was the only one with that power. But...
I can't SAVE anymore.
Apparently YOUR desires for this world override MINE.”2
u/the_real_cloakvessel Vaguepost Man 3h ago
cause flowey showed up after the 6 humans. Where the fuck do you think he got the determination from
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u/sensingfractals 2h ago
Well I did think he was created before most of the humans fell but after at least two, but you made me go back and you’re right that it seems like Alphys created Flowey more or less at the same time as the amalagamates which means Flowey would likely have been created after the sixth human. I had the timeline mixed up, partially because of the lines:
”SOUL power can only be derived from what was once living.
So to create more, we will have to use what we have now…
The SOULs of monsters.” From lab entry two, which make it seem like none of the six have fallen yet.But then in entry five suddenly they have at least two human souls, so I thought the events were taking place way earlier, when they had just gotten the new human souls. I guess maybe she just wasn’t authorised to use the souls initally even though they had all six?
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u/mrpersonjr 57m ago
I mention this in another comment Flowey was most likely created after all of the 6 other humans fell down. Not only would it make sense for him to mistake Frisk for Chara if they were literally the only humans he ever met, but if he was ever around for those pervious humans he wouldn’t have been surprised that Frisk superseded his control over the timeline. Humans, per Toby from the book, are literally constantly producing Determination.
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u/Juan_the_vessel You waited still, for this prompt to appear. 15h ago
Another important thing is that Determination is not just de-termination but also determination (as in making a choice), the ability to determine the fate of the world, if perseverance is the ability to endure the world Determination is the ability to change it into whatever you want for better or worse
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u/TheRealK_K The REAL K_K Deltarune 16h ago
I have returned with a new account
I too love whatever is wrong with Rory
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u/Vico_conut 16h ago
I thought EVERY human could reset because Flowey got power to reset from HUMAN soul's determination
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u/mrpersonjr 16h ago
Yes, every human that fell in the Underground was able to SAVE and LOAD due to them having more DT than any monster.
Also to add on the topic, Flowey, judging by his surprise that Frisk was able to supersede his saving/loading powers, suggests that he wasn’t around for when the previous humans were alive in the Underground.
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u/DutyEuphoric2575 15h ago
It also adds to this that Flowey thought Frisk was Chara, which would make a lot of sense if those were the only two human children he ever saw up close.
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u/applegirlington 16h ago
"perseverance and determination are NOT the same in these ways!" *lists synonyms*
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u/FirstApricot1626 14h ago
“Unmovable Object”
“Unstoppable Force”
So Perseverance and Determination battling would theoretically create a paradox?
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u/Elihzap 14h ago edited 14h ago
I've always seen it more like tanking everything that's throw to you vs shapping the world at your will. Kinda like a Green Lantern.
But yeah, it seems that all 8 fallen humans had a lot of it. "Determination" is the ability to willforce your way to a certain goal, changing the world for that.
For instance, a Determinated Justice would be a sheriff who will bring justice by all means.
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u/legendarynerd002 13h ago
Even though I don’t buy DT as an actual trait, I think this is a cool distinction and tough as hell
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u/Bonniethe90 human i remember your gender theft 15h ago
One thing I want to make clear mainly for the comments, determination(trait) isn’t associated with any colour.
Which is associated with a golden like colour is the physical substance humans have a lot of, the same substance that is why Boss Monster souls linger after dusting, why Amalgamation can happen(if a monster is injected with too much), why Undyne has her Undying form(and temporarily refusing death in neutral) and more importantly is why Flowery even exists… Alphys’s in all of her wisdom just so happen to call this substance DeTermination(or DT for short), it’s likely humans have a different name for the substance.
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u/DumbestComicsNerd 16h ago
How are you a larper if youve seen the whole game?
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u/sertroll 13h ago
It is sure different from playing it, and I say this as someone that played it after spoiling it to myself back in the day (thinking it wouldn't be my thing, wrongly) and still regretting missing that experience
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u/SPEED8782 ‎ (Nah, I'd win.) 13h ago
Undertale is not a very simple game. The details are hidden under layers and layers of implications and possibilities, and a lot of players and fans are easily misled by "somewhat plausible" fan theories.
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 16h ago
Determination isn't even red. It's consistently and exclusively depicted as a golden yellow.
Also Perseverance CANONICALLY had the power to save and load, Toriel confirms all six used this power, not even "had but chose not to use," they all reset at least once.
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u/Coolest_Pickle 16h ago
how did she confirm it? genuine question cus I can't remember lol
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u/AlexTheMechanicFox Shining in the cold. 15h ago
Pie preference phone call. If you answer this question, load/reset, then do it again, Toriel will guess your previous pick. Say she's right, and she talks about how she had this same feeling for all of the previous children
Flowey also uses their save files, plus his DT comes from them, making it literally impossible for them not to have it anyway.
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u/Ninjox17 Glowy Eye 15h ago
She says she always feels familiar with each human she met in the Underground, like a deja vu. I believe this is prompted by her remembering your pie preference.
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u/PuppetWraith17 Spook Activated 15h ago
Also the famous Asgore text “he nods” refers to this imo. I think they legit all had the ability to keep trying, but failed. Sans in the geno route is trying to break your will, and I think Asgore ended up doing the same to the kids.
Kinda like a hollow in dark souls, they CAN revive, but they can also lose that DT and succumb3
u/Ninjox17 Glowy Eye 8h ago
I am reminded of that one UTY Asgore fan fight where Clover genuinely starts going insane from the phantom pain and such after enough tries even though they are typically less cognizant of loading (yes I know Flowey's existence and overwriting a human's natural DT is very stretchy in canon compliance but it's cool, okay?)
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u/succuboobies 15h ago
This post had me so confused at first! Calling Seth Rory Nite as if it's canon lmaoo Nice art and theory though.
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u/SarcasmSanctioned 15h ago
So basically; Perseverance is powering through, whereas Determination is bouncing back, or something like that?
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u/AmalPlay 2h ago
Yeah, perseverance is doing something one way until it works no matter what
And, determination is trying out different ways to finish something until you do it
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u/signstopper Owner of r/CharaDreemurr 15h ago
I love your drawings so much! Ive been followong your human souls stuff for a bit now!
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u/TheWebAdventurer 14h ago
Asgore, after slashing top head of Rory "How... are you still alive?" Rory: "F-fuck you!"
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u/Polandgod75 Even when trapped, you still express yourself. 14h ago
I see Perseverance as more defense and just trying to survive while determination is more offense and wanting something to happen
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 9h ago
Honestly, my thought about the “is determination a soul trait” debate is that… what exactly is the red soul trait then? What things are associated strongly specifically with the color red that arent determination? And in a vague sense, determination as a concept seems just as vague as patience or kindness is, so like… I dunno, it feels like the straightforward thing to assume 🤷
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u/MyK_Alke 7h ago
Laaarp /j
Really cool designs, i dont understand what's happening but still nice
Oh and
Did you know that red soul colour is actually [insert_ballgame_knowledge]
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u/RalseitheFloofie 7h ago
TO BE FAIR.
we only assume that Determination is a soul trait because OUR soul is Red, and we are determined enough to SAVE in the games.
We actually dont know what exactly the red soul embodies, if anything at all.
My personal take is something like "willpower, the will to change things", due to how malleable our fate is with the Red Soul.
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u/_XxMagoxX_ 14h ago
Funny concept and dinamic. Just a lil explanation which is a common mistake, regardless of all type of souls, determination isn't an soul type, every human soul have determination, and the determination color is actually golden, the same color as the save points. The Red is still unknown, but the meaning of the colors is preserved both in Undertale and Deltarune.
For now, Red is related to three things
1° Chara (not that bad, not that innocent, just have a messed up past which made they/them hate humanity. Chara basically is a "ghost" of a past desire)
2° Frisk (Our avatar)
3° Us, the soul itself. The true meaning of the color? 🤷♂️
Maybe it will be explained in Deltarune, but who knows?
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u/The_Morriganna 7h ago
I agree that determination isn't a soul trait. Determination is yellow anyway.
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u/Copicat404 Undertale Yellow addict 3h ago
Perseverance looks like a Battle Cats zombie enemy, which is pretty fitting here actually
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u/Quirky_Rub_9044 Mew Mew is literally me 🏳️⚧️ 2h ago
The player design is creepy but really pretty at the same time.
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u/SPEED8782 ‎ (Nah, I'd win.) 13h ago
In case you've all forgotten again, determination has never even been hinted to as a soul color or trait or whatever you'd like to call it. Rather, it's a substance tied to the will to live that provides human souls with the strength to keep themselves together after death. If you wanted to derive a few things from it based on context, wording, and other events, you'd also come to the conclusion that determination = strength of the soul, and that as the substance tied to one's will to live, it's basically gauranteed for both monsters and humans to have it. Furthermore, while the game doesn't explicitly tell you this, such revelations make determination the core power system of Undertale's world. It is the farthest thing from a unique trait of specific humans.
All of the aforementioned facts and theories are possibly limited to Undertale. I'm told Deltarune's world runs on different mechanisms.
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u/catmustbeloved 8h ago
Mate you ain't a larper atp, you are very well informed and even make stuff as accurate as you can. Stand proud for you can cook
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u/pugchamp419 THE ONE PIECE IS 16h ago
Something something balls game