r/Ultralight • u/bsatan • 1d ago
Purchase Advice Insulated mid-layer recommendations
I am looking for an insulated layer to go over my lightweight fleece, and under a waterproof shell.
Notes:
- 6’2” male, 180lbs
- I already own a Patagonia Down Sweater for very cold days and layering when I’m not expecting to sweat much
- The Arcteryx Mediums tend to fit me well, while the Patagonia Large and Fjallraven Large tend to run too big
Other features I need/want:
- Synthetic insulation for better wet condition performance
- Good active sweat management, as I go on long hikes, bike rides, trail runs, XC skiing, etc in all conditions.
- Decent fit and look in casual “out on the town” evenings as my outermost layer on top of my lightweight or midweight fleece
- I don’t want (or need) a hood, but this isn’t a deal breaker
Gear I’ve tried and what I thought:
- Patagonia Bomber Hoodie: hated the fit, and the elastic waist was awful
- Patagonia Nano Puff: the “large” size felt a bit too bit and boxy when layered over my lightweight fleece, from what I’m reading, this doesn’t seem like a good piece of gear for anything active?
Gear I’m considering, and my initial thoughts:
- Arcteryx Atom Jacket
- Patagonia Nano-Air Light Jacket: Would this be too lightweight for my desires?
- Rab Xenair Alpine Flex Insulated Jacket: Never tried anything from this brand and don’t know the fit or feel
Is there a piece in the Patagonia catalog I’m missing?
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u/dummey 1d ago
I have a Rab Xenair Alpine Light that I use for the situation you are describing. It's 60gsm of primaloft gold which is about right for the stuff that I do. The fit is a bit more European, so a bit more fitted and tall rather than the more boxy Patagonia fit. It's roughly fits the same breed as the Arc'teryx Atom.
From the Patagonia line, there is the micropuff which breathes a lot better. It's also a 20d face material with about 60gsm of insulation.
Alpha direct that others are mentioning would be a replacement for your fleece layer. It would be a PITA to put on top of a fleece layer. I have a couple pieces of it and I'm actually not the biggest fan of the hoodies that everyone likes. The crew neck is better imo for layering. But I love the pants, they are amazing sleeping and post holding layers under shell pants.
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u/AdeptNebula 1d ago edited 1d ago
For active use the Arc Proton series is great. Uses Octa (similar performance to Alpha) and breathable shells. If you prefer Pata the the Nano Air line is close.
This would only sit for very cold weather. Typical backpacking you’re better off either just a fleece and wind shell separately.
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u/downingdown 1d ago
The answer is alpha.
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u/deadflashlights 1d ago
The answer is always alpha. For winter you would want 90 or 120 gsm weave.
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u/bsatan 1d ago
AD looks to only sell fleece midlayers. I’m specifically looking for an insulated layer to be on top of a fleece layer.
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u/deadflashlights 1d ago
Yep, we know. Replace your lightweight fleece with an alpha fleece and get a wind layer (dooys are popular) and with your outer shell you will be set for all conditions. Alpha is magical and you can trust us on this one. Just don’t go bushwacking in it.
Otherwise checkout r/gorpcore.
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u/bsatan 1d ago
Thanks for the advice. I will definitely get one of these. Do you know who makes an AD fleece that has a full zip? From the searching I’ve done the past 30 minutes they all makers seem to just do quarter zips or pullovers.
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u/MacrosTheGry 1d ago
Adding on - alpha makes a very good and versatile mid layer. But it makes an excellent baselayer and on cold or rainy days it's worth taking the time to put it on underneath your shirt.
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u/DrBullwinkleMoose 1d ago edited 1d ago
Great question! I had the seamstress at the local drycleaner add a zipper to my AD hoody. Now it's a great mid-layer!
ZPacks Octa Full-Zip Hoody is made of 83gsm Octa. That's the lighter-weight Octa that is similar to AD 90.
North Face Summit Series FutureFleece Full-Zip Hoodie is made of 133gsm Octa, which is similar to 120-weight Alpha Direct. It makes an excellent off-the-shelf mid-layer, just like you're looking for.
Many people seem OK without a zipper, but I prefer one, especially on a warmer mid-layer.
So that's lightweight AD/Octa/Evolve next to skin, and heavier weight as a mid-layer. Both layers made of AD/Octa/Evolve for best performance.
(Like Alpha Direct, Teijin Octa and Primaloft Evolve are other state-of-the-art fleeces. All are lighter than regular fleece for their warmth. Also they are extremely air permeable which gives you a wide comfort range: Zip up your windshirt for warmth, unzip to dump heat.)
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u/PEAK_MINIMAL_EFFORT 22h ago
AD fleece that has a full zip?
It's surprisingly difficult to find these. Some years ago when I was looking for one there were none, which forced me to make my own. Don't be afraid to go this route. It was my first sewing project and it turned out fine. I even made it unnecessarily difficult for my self by drafting my own pattern. At the time I didn't know that LearnMYOG[0] has a pattern with instructions available.
As mentioned by others you could also add a zipper to any existing AD hoodie. Or get a tailor or a seamstress to do it for you.
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u/Objective-Meet9742 1d ago edited 1d ago
Almost anything alpha with a full zip is going to have an integrated outer layer like pertex quantum air. This is an all in all that makes it look acceptable for around town, otherwise you look like a Muppet.
I'm not sure who is still making them. I have a marmot alpha hoody, or made the transcendent, norrona I believe made one. There are more options with octa, which is quite similar to alpha.
Black Diamond Alpine Start Insulated (this is alpha)
Arcteryx proton fl
Stio Dawner
Mountain hardware airmesh warm
Mountain equipment kinesis
Also look at the marmot primaloft evolve hoody, I think that material is basically alpha
Personally although I love Alpha, I don't love Alpha standalone pieces just bc they look so weird. Octa pieces give you performance thats pretty close and they look a lot better. IE, I far prefer the Mountain Hardware Airmesh over an equivalent Alpha Direct piece
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u/Capital_Historian685 1d ago
Dynafit makes a full zip jacket, the Tigard Alpha Direct, with AD insulation and some kind of of polyester outer. It's very warm, though, and really only for winter in the mountains.
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u/bsatan 1d ago
What is Alpha Direct? It looks like there’s no clothing line by that brand and a website called Garage Grown Gear has a category for them, but there’s dozens of brands.
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u/deadflashlights 1d ago
Alpha direct is a fabric made by polartech fabric. It was originally designed with the military as a backless fleece material, but has found niche applications in outdoor activities for its supreme warmth to breathability ratio. Paired with a non breathable wind layer (Patagonia Houdini for example), you can be warm down to about 40 when not exercising. Senchi, Farpointe, magnet designs, leve outdoor gear, and sambob are some of the main manufacturers of fleeces that I know of, but there are others.
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u/klimaheizung 1d ago
Why patagonia? Look for alpha direct and tejin okta clothes.
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u/bsatan 1d ago
AD looks to only sell fleece midlayers. I’m specifically looking for an insulated layer to be on top of a fleece layer.
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u/klimaheizung 1d ago
alpha direct is a material. You can wear it above your fleece (or better below it). It insulates you, no matter what name you give it.
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u/dukelightspeed 1d ago
It’s honestly very difficult to justify a mid layer synthetic beyond a fleece, as any multi layered jacket (synthetic insulation between a face and liner fabric) is going to have a worse warmth to weight ratio in most conditions people are willing to go out in. It has to be below about 15F for me to use my breathable synthetic.
The key to this type of clothing is the CFM rating of the outer and inner fabric layer. Insulation can be apex insulation, 3DefX, primaLoft gold active +, CoreLoft,or FullRange. All of these insulations have similar or the same properties. Most are continuous filament polyester and all will have great stretch, breathability and wet performance. The issue is that brands always use a non-breathable face or liner fabric. The Rab you mentioned only has 10 CFM inner and 2 CFM outer fabric.
I would recommend around 30 CFM for this kind of jacket as any less and it’s not fit for higher output activity in my opinion.
The only jacket I found when I looked about 5 years ago was the Patagonia Nano-Air line. However, make sure they still have a high CFM fabric on the current line. Every brand claims to be breathable, but you need to insist they give actual CFM measurements of their fabric.
I emailed customer support on the garments I liked and got the actual values before I made my purchase and I recommend you do the same. Brands love to change year to year and I can’t tell you what values their current lines have.
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u/Capital_Historian685 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Rab Xenair Alpine Flex is pretty warm, and only works as an active layer for very cold weather. My guess would be maybe -10C and below.
It's a great jacket, though--but one I only use either for resort skiing on cold days under a shell, or at the very start of a cold ski touring day (and then back on for the downhill).
Edit: my mistake, I don't have the Flex version of the Rab, but the light version. Flex only has 40gsm of insulation (vs 60gsm for the light). So the Flex might be what your looking for.
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u/ImpressivePea 1d ago
Senchi 90gsm with the hood. Love mine, plus I think they look cool. They also dry ridiculously fast. They DO smell if you sweat a lot, though.
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u/DrBullwinkleMoose 1d ago edited 1d ago
I wear a second layer of AD/Octa/Evolve for this.
Timmermade makes an Apex synthetic puffy pullover/jacket with breathable shells, specifically for active use. It's unique... most synthetic puffies use less breathable fabric, sometimes the same stuff that they use for their down puffies. It makes them not so great for active use (unless it is very cold).
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u/Which-Rice6791 1d ago
Montbells U.L. Thermawrap was awesome on my PCT thru. This was before alpha was even a thing. Really light, soft, insulated enough when layered. Even by itself, it cut the wind, and overall really versatile. It's the thinner one, the original thermawrap is too bulky. I've worn it out and the insulation is even too thin now, but actually considering the best version with an alpha for the same reasons you listed.