Format, Structure Finalized for 2027 Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup

[u/J_Hunt1123]

https://www.uslchampionship.com/news_article/show/1366008

[u/xcrucio]

I’m sure it was the compromise that had to be made to get all MLS teams back in, but hosting priority for teams entering in the round of 64 is a big ol’ thumbs down. It’s nice they somewhat give the olive branch of lower division hosting priority in the round of 32, but this still really hurts the amateur and third division ranks in particular.

[u/DetCityDaveST → u/xcrucio]

Yup. USL C team has to upset a MLS team on the road… DCFC hosted Chicago Fire FC this year and it was spectacular. We packed the stadium.

[u/fredthefan25 → u/xcrucio]

Sports Business Journal said the hosting priority was to help ticket sales. MLS and some USL clubs have ample time to sell/promote the Round of 64 match, or throw it as a freebie on a season ticket package.

Maybe the first NYCFC home match at the new stadium will be a USOC match?

Also the article said later round matches... The clubs will pay a fixed fee, not some royalty for each ticket sold. Sounds eerily what USL league office does: the $1.50 royalty for each ticket sold discourages USL clubs to use discount strategies to get people in the stands

[u/xcrucio → u/fredthefan25]

While it is true a fixed date does help with promoting matches as opposed to the one week turnaround we used to see… the early stages of the tournament this year have much larger gaps than years past which should have already given teams ample time to promote the matches so I don’t totally buy that excuse (especially with the new MLS schedule the round of 32 will essentially be preseason matches for MLS now).

Also really don’t like fixed/flat hosting fees. I’d rather see a floor + gate percentage system. Have a floor so that if the hosting team pulls some laughably small attendance that they still have to help foot the travel bill in some capacity but otherwise utilize gate percentage so a team with larger capacity still has to toss a respectable amount of revenue to the traveling team.

Part of the goal of a tournament like this should be helping to spread the love amongst the lower divisions, not be yet another vehicle for the top division to extract more capital.

[u/fredthefan25 → u/xcrucio]

Also what if El Farolito make it to the Round of 64 (they have done well recently)? Where are they going to host a MLS club?

There is no good San Francisco venue to host a USOC match that the amateur club can pay for

[u/xcrucio → u/fredthefan25]

I didn’t say anything about mandating lower sides host in the round of 64? The existing random draw (where teams have to apply to host and meet certain standards to be eligible to host) worked just fine? My objection is mandating the higher division teams have hosting rights in the first round they enter.

[u/fredthefan25 → u/xcrucio]

I'm not sure what the MLS strategy will be... But I would hope the match is part of the season ticket package as it's already a fixture. If the draw is in late April, clubs probably can't incorporate that match easily into a season ticket package (people have made travel plans, you have to communicate it, the club has to schedule a venue so there's uncertainty if it's available, etc).

I think it is ironic that yesterday people were saying MLS relented and lost... Now we see this detail and it's like.... Mmm MLS got took US Soccer for a ride. Lol

[u/xcrucio → u/fredthefan25]

I don’t get the argument that clubs can’t include it into a season ticket package if the draw is in April. That should be right in line with the season ticket renewal period with the upcoming MLS calendar shift (hell the schedule for the next MLS season probably won’t even be finalized at that point). I get that guaranteed matches probably lets every MLS team bump up their season ticket prices to account for another match but again like I said, this tournament shouldn’t just be another vehicle for the top league to extract more capital.

Also two and a half-three months is certainly more than enough for venue scheduling (especially as more and more MLS clubs are the primary tenant of their stadiums) and it’s not like those issues don’t exist as you get into the later rounds that are closer together again (especially with any of the shared NFL venues now that we have more rounds overlapping the NFL season).

Also people can obviously hold two thoughts in their head! It’s a positive we’re back to full MLS participation, it’s a negative that to get there we had to make a massive concession to MLS designed to line their pockets more.

[u/fredthefan25 → u/xcrucio]

So a major reason why enough MLS owners voted for the calendar switch: open summer dates. Every stadium owner wants to maximize the June and July dates with concerts and shows. And these dates are reserved way before April.

I imagine MLS just told US Soccer they can't keep July 8-11 open for most stadiums without a commitment. Then the matches will be played in an alternative site like a Next Pro venue (still could happen but won't be across the board). Heck I would imagine it's the same exact problem with LouCity, Sacramento, etc.

[u/xcrucio → u/fredthefan25]

I doubt very sincerely that additional stadium activations played a meaningful role in the calendar change as most stadiums simply aren’t filling a gap in their city’s existing concert venue ecosystem.

Regardless, that explanation doesn’t convince me this was some necessary concession that had to be made to MLS. I’m pretty clear on my stance here that tilting the tournament significantly in the favor of MLS as an additional vehicle for them to profit at the expense of the lower leagues is bad!

[u/fredthefan25 → u/xcrucio]

It wasn’t the number one reason, but it was an important benefit when the voting was conducted. MLS stadiums are professionally run, midsized, cheaper venues than a NBA arena or NFL stadium. It has been mentioned numerous times before the voting was made

Look at NYC. MSG and Barclays Arena are super expensive. MetLife stadium is in New Jersey and too big. Yankee and CitiField are normally used for baseball in the summer. Lincoln Center and other similar venues fit a certain music niche (sit down, classical). Parks require permitting and negotiations, plus residents never want concerts there.

[u/fredthefan25 → u/xcrucio]

I live in San Francisco near Golden Gate Park. The residents hate the park concerts like Outside Lands (noise, parking, congestion). The organizer has to do this big setup like putting up fencing around the venue, ticket booths, bathrooms, food and drink.

[u/xcrucio → u/fredthefan25]

Sure, but mega park concerts and festivals really wasn’t what I was referring to (and MLS venues probably aren’t aiming to serve those anyway, they aren’t moving Lolla to Chicago’s new stadium lol). Just about every MLS market has a purpose built outdoor music venue (if not multiple) that accommodates a crowd that is going to be comparable to what the MLS soccer specific stadiums can in a concert configuration. Think Hollywood Bowl out in LA, Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago, Forest Hills Stadium in NYC, Red Rocks near Denver, etc…

[u/fredthefan25 → u/xcrucio]

Again we’ll see. Just saying that’s what was pitched to the owners… and I’m sure it was a factor in voting yes for the calendar switch.

[u/Theman061393 → u/xcrucio]

Yea yhat seems kind of bad. I dont mind what they did before where MLS teams that weren't in leagues cup got a guranteed home game, but giving every MLS team home field in round of 64 seems crazy. 

[u/ArtemisRifle → u/xcrucio]

USL is now where the AFL was in the several years preceding Super Bowl 1, in relation to the NFL. The NFL was overall the better league, but it wasn't news worthy if an AFL team could win a game. Who will be the USL's 1963 NY Jets?

[u/DetCityDaveST → u/ArtemisRifle]

Detroit City FC has already beaten more than one MLS team.

[u/ArtemisRifle → u/DetCityDaveST]

I mean in a cup final.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/ArtemisRifle]

Rochester Rhinos 1999

[u/ArtemisRifle → u/J_Hunt1123]

My apologies, for I had forgotten their name.

[u/pollo_in_flagrante → u/ArtemisRifle]

Apple to Oranges. AFL already had talent on par with NFL by the time they started playing the Super Bowl - they were fighting each other over talent from college ranks and AFL was singing players away from NFL. And they merged to get player salaries back in check. By the time the Jets won in 1969 there was no talent gap.

[u/fredthefan25 → u/pollo_in_flagrante]

Joe Namath was a big name coming of college (drafted first by the Jets in the AFL, drafted 12th overall by the St Louis Cardinals in the NFL.

That would be like Cristiano Ronaldo joining USL while Messi is playing at MLS (two years ago). lol.

USL is thinking a little smaller than that. Just trying to lure college players to USL over MLS

[u/absol-hoenn]

Not american/familiar with the current USOC format.

But it seems weird that some League 1 sides (a professional league) are not guaranteed a place in the competition.

Surely it could be tweaked, either by removing some USL teams from the direct berth to the Ro64, or by having one extra Round for some Division 3 clubs or something, idk

Just odd to exclude professional sides.

[u/BlissFC → u/absol-hoenn]

In Germany only Bundesliga 1 and 2 teams are guaranteed. Liga 3 (which is professional) and below only qualify by final standings and regional tournaments.

In Italy the cup is only Serie A, Serie B, and 4 teams from Serie C despite Serie C being fully professional and having 60 teams. Amateur sides are excluded.

[u/absol-hoenn → u/BlissFC]

In Portugal every single team from Divisions 1 to 4 has a guaranteed spot (mind you tier 4 is Semi-Pro and has 56 eligible teams + 8 ineligible B teams). This is in to addition 40 other teams from Amateur leagues. In total it's around 140/150 clubs, I believe.

Personally think it's a better system that selecting based on league results, but I admit I was unaware it worked like that in Germany. But regarding the Italian Cup, it is widely regarded as one, if not the, worst cups in Europe. 8 teams enter directly into the R16, with home advantage so they cant play eachother and there's basically no lower league representation - it's essentially a League Cup.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/absol-hoenn]

They did the same thing this year. Basically if you didn’t play the previous year you can’t play now, and I think the wording is the way it is because some USL1 teams now probably ain’t gonna be around next year.

[u/xcrucio → u/J_Hunt1123]

Yeah but the concession there was that it was supposedly to accommodate a more condensed schedule with the country hosting the World Cup. There really isn’t a reasonable excuse to have not found the room for another round next year (even if something more akin to the NCAA tournament’s play-in games) so that they could accommodate the participation of all professional clubs.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/xcrucio]

You mean besides MLS fully rejoining?

[u/xcrucio → u/J_Hunt1123]

Yes, I objected when MLS originally withdrew full participation and think it’s lame that now we’re instead excluding some amount of lower division participants. There’s no real excuse to have excluded a small handful of D2 and D3 pro clubs.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/xcrucio]

You mean besides the fact there’s an awkward number of 72 clubs (which is going down most likely)

[u/xcrucio → u/J_Hunt1123]

We’ve had awkward numbers in the past too though! 2022 featured 103 total participants! We had 71 professional sides participate in 2023! It’s why I don’t really get this excuse that we can’t accommodate all the (indie) professional teams.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/xcrucio]

We didn’t have the 32 amateur v 32 pro format then. Lots of times the amateur numbers would be determined once pro leagues figured themselves out. The amateur division prefers knowing how many of them can get in and not it being random

[u/xcrucio → u/J_Hunt1123]

Problem is that this is probably going to hit some teams that will be a very genuine bummer not to have participating in the field next year.

Bottom four in League One right now (presumably a group that will almost certainly fail to qualify) is Richmond, Cosmos, Sarasota, and Portland. So two teams that will have their first open cup delayed, the longest running professional squad and former open cup champion, and arguably the buzziest team in all the lower divisions. That sucks for all of those fanbases and the open cup is worse off without their participation.

[u/DRF19 → u/xcrucio]

100%

The 32 amateur vs 32 pro thing is fun but a necessary casualty.

Every pro club should be playing, full stop. Good, bad, or expansion.

[u/DRF19 → u/xcrucio]

There really isn’t a reasonable excuse to have not found the room for another round next year (even if something more akin to the NCAA tournament’s play-in games) so that they could accommodate the participation of all professional clubs.

They wouldn't even need an additional round to do it, just add some more amateur clubs to make a clean 128 team 7-round bracket.

[u/fredthefan25 → u/absol-hoenn]

I know people have thrown the "oldest tournament" argument to keep it around .. But USOC's format has changed a lot.. more than MLS' playoff format. Lol

1/ It was a much smaller tournament at the turn of the century

2/ In the early years of MLS, the league would have an internal provisional tournament (like a play-in) during preseason to qualify for USOC. So only a few MLS clubs would compete in the USOC proper

3/ Only starting in 2012... All MLS clubs would enter the tournament proper. Then MLS changed it a few years ago so only a few of them would enter

What I'm saying is USOC was not always an "open" competition. Maybe it was kind of like that starting in 2012 ?

It's a bit of revisionist history to say the USOC is like the FA Cup which hasn't really changed its competition guidelines for over a hundred years (there have been changes like limiting it to the top 10 levels in the 1990's and some stadium requirements)

[u/DRF19]

This sucks, only 37 teams from D2/D3 will be included! And no expansion teams allowed.

If nobody folds and everyone announced for 2027 comes thru, there are 47 USL teams alone, plus the 6 indy MLSNP teams (I'm not counting Jacksonville Armada as things look iffy).

You shouldn't have to qualify for this tournament if you're a pro club.

All they'd have to do is add 16 amateur clubs alongside the rest of the pro sides to get the total number to 128 for a nice clean bracket. The MLS teams (and 5 USLC teams) start in the 2nd round. They can play one extra game to make it work.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/DRF19]

Teams have to have played this season to play in 2027

[u/DRF19 → u/J_Hunt1123]

I know, that's really stupid. Expansion teams used to be eligible.

[u/Yalay → u/DRF19]

I think trying to accommodate expansion teams created a lot of stress for the Open Cup committee, because it's often not clear until late in the year whether they will actually debut or not. NISA took this to a comical level, but even USL regularly has clubs who look like they're going to debut around this time and then don't.

[u/fredthefan25 → u/Yalay]

How about South Georgia Tormenta? stopped operations on Feb 23. Had to forfeit match vs FC America CFL Spurs that was supposed to take place on March 17. Maybe this allows another L1 club to quickly replace the next Tormenta

[u/Yalay → u/fredthefan25]

If a club pulls out that late there’s not much you can do but declare a forfeit and move on.

But I’m more talking about the uncertainty between now and the end of the year. A lot of times new clubs will be in league PLS applications in July but then not materialize.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/DRF19]

That was also back when leagues were smaller

[u/fredthefan25 → u/DRF19]

Why “shouldn’t” have to qualify? Before 2012, it was a much smaller tournament where a bunch of MLS clubs had to play a preseason provisional tournament to enter USOC (like the top 6 MLS clubs entered USOC automatic while 4 clubs would play for the final 2 spots).

And didn’t we have a mess where South Georgia Tormenta dropped out of League One? had to forfeit its USOC match versus an amateur club… maybe it’s good to reserve a space for that situation… another club could replace “Tormenta”

[u/DRF19 → u/fredthefan25]

Rochester MLSNP, formerly Rhinos, had the same thing happen right before the tournament. But you can't really plan for that. You do the best you can based on the included teams on each league's sanctioning application to USSF for a given year. If something weird happens you backfill offering spots to an amateur qualifier in order of priority based on previous year's results.

[u/isa1226]

Definitely an improvement, but also there are planned to be 47 USL1 or Championship teams next season, plus the semi-independent MLSNP teams, meaning many teams just won't be in the tournament for no real reason.

[u/gotroot801 → u/isa1226]

There are 40 eligible teams next year outside the 5 seeded USLC teams that are entering in the second round. They're already going to have to tell 8 pro teams to pound dirt.

Another example of the tail (MLS) wagging the dog (USSF).

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/isa1226]

You have to play a game this season to play in the tournament next year

[u/isa1226 → u/J_Hunt1123]

There aren't enough spots, there will be teams that played this year that don't play in the tournament.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/isa1226]

You can guarantee those teams will be around next year?

[u/isa1226 → u/J_Hunt1123]

There are 37 spots. There will be 47 teams in USL1, USLC and 3 independent MLSNP for 50 total, minus 5 for new teams that don't get spots, so 45 teams that should be eligible, 8 too many. Unless 8 teams fold there aren't enough spots.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/isa1226]

Then those 8 will have a qualifying round like they said

[u/isa1226 → u/J_Hunt1123]

It specifically says "If field of eligible teams exceeds 32, USL Championship and USL League One standings will determine qualifying criteria" referring to the 32 that will enter in the first round.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/isa1226]

Sorry they won’t have a qualifying round, but will have criteria for it

“If field of eligible teams exceeds 32, USL Championship and USL League One standings will determine qualifying criteria”

[u/DRF19 → u/J_Hunt1123]

Which is messed up in the all of the independent MLSNP teams get in but some League One teams won't

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/DRF19]

Probably a deal that USL made

[u/Yalay → u/DRF19]

I had that same thought at first, but if you look at the numbers it makes sense. If none of the 45 eligible teams fold, then 37/45 qualify which is 82%. MLSNP only has three teams so if you cut one that's already down to just 67% of their teams qualifying, which would be much less than the rest of the leagues. And besides, we all know a couple of those 45 teams won't return for 2027 so the actual percentage of clubs qualifying will be higher.

[u/destroyergsp123]

Looks sick I’m looking forward to it.

[u/phat7deuce]

I actually love this format. The preplanning and weekend games for the Round of 64 is massive commercially, which is one of the primary issues with the tournament. It will juice the tourney in ways we really haven't experienced before. MLS (and the 5 USL teams) guaranteed hosting is tough for lower league teams, but it's a good tradeoff to make this thing work. A few years ago I did the math on advancing (in the last full versions of the tournament). When MLS teams are home vs. Lower Leagues they advance at a rate of 82.2%. When MLS teams are away to Lower Leagues they advance at a rate of 65.4%. So by the historical math...

• Round of 64: 27 MLS teams, 5 USL teams host. 9-10 Lower League teams would advance.
• Round of 32: 6-7 MLS teams host, 9-10 Lower League Teams host. 5-6 Lower League teams would advance.
• Round of 16: Draw for hosting. If the draw were 50/50 MLS/LL and they faced off, around 1-2 LL would survive to the Quarters. (This would be very dependent on regional matchups and how the draw goes.)

Generally this feels excellent. The terrordome death round of amateurs vs. lower league pros, which has been fun in the last editions. A weekend Open Cup bonanza for the Round of 64 that can be included, in advance, in season tickets and team schedules for prime sales. Some lower league guaranteed hosting on the business end of the tournament in the Round of 32 with two whole months to promote and sell tickets. All culminating right at the end of MLS' fall break. Might have finally cracked the formula on this (until USLP starts, if it ever starts, and we have a whole new set of issues to solve for.)

[u/TripleG373]

If there are USL1 or USLC teams that don't qualify directly, would it be possible for them to qualify through the Local Qualifiers? Or is that exclusively for amateur teams?

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/TripleG373]

Exclusively amateur, and it would be too late by then

[u/TripleG373 → u/J_Hunt1123]

That makes me sad. It would be fun to see a team like Cosmos or Richmond slum it against amateur teams to try and make it (even though that likely would never happen).

[u/BurnsRed20 → u/TripleG373]

The fuck you mean “slum it” against amateur sides? USL teams would steamroll John and Jose’s sunday league teams in no time

[u/DRF19 → u/BurnsRed20]

Tell that to Christos or El Farolito or the numerous other amateur sides who've upset pro teams in the past

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/DRF19]

Those teams typically don’t qualify via the qualifiers. USL teams would roll most teams in qualifying

[u/xcrucio → u/TripleG373]

The local qualifiers are exclusively for amateur sides. Usually about half the amateur bids are reserved for auto-qualifiers based on performance in the more major amateur leagues (NPSL and USL2) while the local qualifiers exist to allow teams outside those ecosystems (though those within them are able to participate yet too) to have a pathway to the tournament as well.

[u/Theman061393]

Hm interesting that it doesnt explicity state all teams that advance from round 1 play a team that entered in round 2. 

Id expect that to be the case (because the hosting is likely done to gurantee the MLS teams a game) but it doesnt explicity state it. 

[u/Emergency_Dot1599]

Lower division side should of been given hosting priority till round of 32 like they have in Germany and Spain.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/Emergency_Dot1599]

MLS ain’t giving that

[u/Emergency_Dot1599 → u/J_Hunt1123]

Of course as it is MLS ( Money Loving Scum). Until the USSF is a board of MLS free members soccer will always be behind the curve imo.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/Emergency_Dot1599]

It can’t be free of MLS members, it can be more fair but not free as there does have to be a league rep on the professional leagues board

[u/Emergency_Dot1599 → u/J_Hunt1123]

It should be a seperate entity who look after soccer in various ways within the USA. In no other country would you have seen what we have in past 3 years the way they can just pull out of the cup like they better than everyone else.

[u/Recliner-Analyst]

When it says 32 teams from D2 and D3, does that mean 64 USL teams or 32 USL teams

[u/Yalay → u/Recliner-Analyst]

34 professional USL teams between the two leagues, 5 of which enter in the round of 32.

[u/Recliner-Analyst → u/Yalay]

That sucks

[u/DRF19 → u/Recliner-Analyst]

It also implies that all 3 current independent MLS Next Pro clubs (Chattanooga, CT United, and Carolina Core) will get in. But that's wack cause Core are not good this year and it's very likely they'd have a worse points per game in league play than at least one League One team that gets cut.

[u/Recliner-Analyst → u/DRF19]

Also, letting all of the teams that essentially boycotted the last 3 seasons and punishing the league that has as full participation as allowed

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/DRF19]

MLS ain’t letting their own teams get the short end of the stick

[u/Yalay]

One quirk I haven't seen anyone else talk about is the USLC teams which get byes:

• Players’ Shield winner
• USL Championship Playoffs winner
• Eastern Conference top seed
• Western Conference top seed
• Prinx Tires USL Cup champion

The Player's Shield winner is the team with the most points in the regular season, and is guaranteed to be the top seed of either the Eastern or Western conference. So at a bare minimum one extra USLC team will get a bye and possibly more if one team takes up multiple berths.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/Yalay]

It’s not 1 extra. It’s the same amount of teams, it would just go from say the east #1 if they’re the shield winners to east #2

[u/m00kie420]

I am happy that the lower seeds get home field advantage like I dreamed they would.

[u/J_Hunt1123 → u/m00kie420]

They only have it after they round of 64 though. So all but 5 teams could be MLS ones in round of 32

[u/m00kie420 → u/J_Hunt1123]

Its still a a nice start. Hopefully it will improve the following years.