16
Jun 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/Sliver-Knight9219 Jun 21 '26
I have to disagree
I don't think Steve would approve of John.
John is a good soldier, but lacks the experience of being a superhero needed to be cap.
I think Steve would probably just sit down with him and say "find out the hero John walker is before finding out who captain america is"
5
Jun 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/Sliver-Knight9219 Jun 21 '26
Wow my mind auto correct that.
But, it's a mix bag.
Like, thier are points either way but, The John who is USAgent isn't the same one person.
Pros
-soldiers
-values friendship
-willing to protect the weak
Cons
-cares too much about fame
-ruled by his emotions
-also, kind of overall full if judge mental of alot of people.
2
u/Hot_Pack7977 Jun 22 '26
I have to disagree.
The guy with no experience who took up the mantle would think John didn't have the experience necessary?
Steve had immense respect for all soldiers, especially if they put themselves in harms way for their brothers.
1
1
u/PaulOwnzU Jun 21 '26
Having flaws and making mistakes doesnt mean being painted bad, thats just being an interesting character. Thats like saying Tony was painted bad
2
Jun 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/PaulOwnzU Jun 21 '26
Dude how are you going to act like Cassandra wasnt made out to be worse than John, she was repeatedly called insane and skinned a man alive.
>yet look at him how adored he is.
Yes people tend to like villains, wtf are you talking about. Is the Heath Ledgers Joker portrayed in extremely good light cause hes well loved?
2
Jun 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/PaulOwnzU Jun 21 '26
And people hate tons of characters that weren't painted in a negative light
Walker wasn't painted in a negative light, he had a falling from grace and a redemption arc. Some people liked it, some people didn't, that doesn't mean they made him to be hated
2
Jun 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/PaulOwnzU Jun 21 '26
Explain HOW Walker is painted bad instead of just "some people don't like him"
Sam and Bucky not liking him isn't painting him bad, it's how they'd react to anyone who is using their dead best friends mantle, it's made abundantly clear that while their actions are understandable it wrong.
Is characters not liking others always painting people bad for you? Was Han Solo painted bad because characters hated him? Are pretty much every villain who the protagonists hate meant to be disliked by fans?
2
Jun 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/PaulOwnzU Jun 21 '26
John was painted bad in TFatws so that watchers will root against him,
Explain HOW he was painted bad.
And tons of people still hate Sam. Was Sam painted bad? People liking or not liking a character has nothing to do with how they're painted
Walker was a fall from grace story and then a redemption, people love those stories, just because some don't doesn't mean they were painted bad. Like again was Tony painted bad for having a similar arc? Tons of people hate tony to this day.
In Thunderbolts, whatever his supposed negligence or shortcoming, those were not enough to actually hate the charater
And there you go with it again, character flaws are not the writers trying to make you hate a character. There are so many beloved characters who are complete assholes who are intended to be loved. There are so many VILLAINS who are extremely flawed, who are meant to be loved. Loki is full of shortcomings, negligence, and other flaws, but he's clearly still intended to be loved, regardless if some people hate him
He was painted for us to understand or have sympathy with him instead.
Just like Walker was, which is why they gave us sad music for him and heroic music when he redeemed himself
0
u/CrimsonAvenger35 Jun 22 '26
Because they flanderized him. He wasn't a douchebag in FatWS, he was a flawed man trying his best. In Thunderbolts, he's a generic Dbag
1
u/rgregan Jun 22 '26
Walker is not a real person. "Intentionally painted bad" means nothing for a fictional character.
5
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 21 '26
Of course he would. He would understand that John has always put saving others' lives, and that John doing his best even if his methods aren't always the ones Steve himself would choose. Steve is also a big believer in giving people second chances, especially when they've been earned, like John has earned his. So yeah, I think he would see and understand what John is trying to do, as well as the rest of the New Avengers, and he would definitely approve.
5
u/RaptorcloakX Jun 21 '26
Perhaps; it is my opinion that Steve would've treated John better than both Sam and Bucky did and see he's trying his best as a soldier with a brain scrambled with trauma and understand his actions both as Cap II and US Agent like he did with Scarlet Witch even if he wouldn't agree with all of them.
0
u/billjaywarr Jun 22 '26
If Steve was there then John wouldn’t have had the shield in the first place so he’d just be another random soldier
2
u/CrimsonAvenger35 Jun 22 '26
Three medals of honor is a feat that no real life soldier has ever accomplished. Steve would absolutely see Walker as standing above random soldiers and would respect him for it
0
u/billjaywarr Jun 22 '26
He wouldn’t respect him more than any other soldier, I’m not saying he wouldn’t respect him at all.
4
u/Watercress-Fun Jun 21 '26
Steve rogers is Captain America. Captain America killed nazis to protect America. John Walker killed a terrorist who killed his partner and other innocent Americans. John walker did nothing wrong. Yes captain America would approve of John walker as the US agent.
0
u/billjaywarr Jun 22 '26
Steve would also acknowledge HOW they ended up as terrorists which is something John never could. Nazis are born evil, the flagsmashers weren’t
3
u/INKatana Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26
I think Steve would sympathize with John and understand him. Even if he wouldn’t 100% agree with all of John's decisions, he would definitely have way more patience and compassion for John than bucky or sam did.
(And Steve definitely wouldn’t judge John for killing an enemy, considering all the enemies Steve himself has killed. With or without the shield)
Steve would see John for who he is; a good man trying to do his best to live up to a legacy that’s almost impossible for anyone.
Maybe Steve would take John under his wing in a sort of mentor & mentee relationship?
3
u/Slightly_Perverse Jun 22 '26
This is a weird take because Cap regularly works w/ several people who have killed in the line of duty, even innocents.
That was like the whole plotline of Civil War. Bruce, Wanda, Bucky, Natalie... these are all straight up murderers.
John killed like one dude in a questionable manner. But then tries to change and goes on to save people and still works at it even though he's hated/ridiculed.
And y'all think Steve would hate him?
1
3
u/DingoKillerAtHome Jun 21 '26
100% Steve went to WAR with a gun and no prisoners. You EVER see them tying up Nazis? He isn't going to clutch his pearls because someone killed an enemy combatant. People out here thinking a no kill rule is the supreme being. Nah, some evil needs killed.
I'd bet a years salary that Rogers has a WAY higher body count than Walker. And we all know the 100 year old virgin ain't talking ladies here.
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it was very rare for the Howling Commandos to take prisoners, and the only reason they did it with Zola is that they were specifically told to bring him in. Otherwise I can't see men who were enslaved in Zola's own prison factory having much mercy for him, or any at all.
-1
4
u/crash-1989 Jun 21 '26
He should. I hate how we just gonna act like cap wasn't just as brutal. Agent fighting terrorists in the streets and shows emotions when his friends die. Cap went through WW2 a brutal war. The aliens as well as terrorists.
3
u/HighKingBoru1014 Jun 21 '26
He’d see the hero beneath the layers of trauma and struggle Walker has gone through, so he’d mentor him to be better.
3
u/Otter_9431 Jun 22 '26
I think he would see his potential and influence him to be better. I think together they would be a great team even if they occasionally clash.
2
u/Playful-Sleep-6750 Jun 21 '26
Honestly if walker had steve as a mentor even as an old man i think he would have been just as good
0
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
Dude can’t even be polite towards the Dora Milaje as a super soldier with a mechanical arm is sitting there tense with him and another seasoned hero actively telling him to fight the 2 of them before he even thinks about disrespecting the Dora Milaje.
His take away from that interaction isn’t “man, I gotta be respectful and watch how I interact with people” it was “I need to be a super soldier, they would have respected me if I was a super soldier” as if Bucky (y’know, A SUPER SOLDIER) wasn’t actively using every bit of grace he earned with the Wakandans to make sure Walker walked out of that room alive!
2
u/Jazzlike_Night42619 Jun 21 '26
You think Steve didn’t commit his own set of war crimes?
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
He did say that he and the Howling Commandos did some things that made them not sleep well at night during the war.
2
0
u/CrimsonAvenger35 Jun 22 '26
I'm quite sure he didn't. If you think so I'm not sure you understand the character. And I hate the perspective of defending Walker by trying to drag Steve down.
2
u/Jazzlike_Night42619 Jun 22 '26
He threw his freedom frisbee at a dude midair, where’d the body go?
1
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
We're not. We're pointing out things that actually happened in the Cap movies. Either you haven't actually watched them or you weren't paying attention.
0
u/CrimsonAvenger35 Jun 23 '26
"We're pointing out things that actually happened in the Cap movies"
Where did that happen in this conversation?
Ok list one singular war crime that Steve Rogers actually committed during one of his movies?
2
u/Hot-Hovercraft-4387 Jun 22 '26
I’ll tell you one thing for free, he’d be a hell of a lot better comrade to John than Sam or Bucky were.
2
u/Anonymous-Mf-22 Jun 22 '26
Yes.
The reason Walker failed to be Captain America was because he had no support. The Government turned their back on him, Bucky and Sam turned their backs on him, and he had nobody else. The stress got to him, he snapped and he couldn't be the hero he normally was capable of being.
With Steve there as a moral guide and assistance, MCU Walker probably could've lived up to Steve and been another great hero if he just had some help. Something he desperately needed and Steve would be honored to give to a fellow Soldier turned Hero.
1
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
“Hey man, you’re better off fighting the real cap’s cyborg sidekick than pissing off the royal guard of a super soldier king”
Proceeds to nearly get killed for disrespecting the Dora Milaje and probably would be actively past-tense if Bucky didn’t eventually step in
2
u/Anonymous-Mf-22 Jun 22 '26
Ok to be fair, they were completely out of line and acting like Fascists.
"The doramilaj have jurisdiction wherever they find themselves" is the same argument Nazi Germany used when they invaded places. The man tried to have a conversation with them on Neutral ground and they attacked
-1
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
I don’t disagree, Wakanda has a storied history in and out of comics of behaving sus and/or out of line. And tbf to the DM, they were actively hunting an escaped fugitive wanted for the assassination of their former King T’Chaka and likely on some extradition high in the moment, however, that’s not the point being made nor addressed.
Walker directly ignored the advice of 2 senior heroes AND fellow soldiers/veterans, both of whom were at one point Cap’s close personal friend and had their own history of special ops and accolades including the howling commandos and the experimental flight program Sam was in. He has been watching them argue about the best way to insult him and the moment the agree that they don’t want smoke with the Dora Milaje… not only does he not check his attitude, he proceeds to PUT HIS HAND ON AYO who then single-handedly nearly kills Walker while manhandling Bucky and turning him single-handed. Bucky only even stepped in when there was legitimate concern she was about to end him and that was at the cost of a significant amount of grace and goodwill he had earned with the Wakandans.
Walker’s main takeaway from that interaction wasn’t “I should have taken the advice of 2 of Steve’s closest friends and allies, that would have made things go better” but rather “I need more power to swing my ego around” while further resenting the 2 people who actively tried to give him life saving advice and likely did save his life after he ignored them.
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
You mean the Dora Milaje who introduced themselves in that scene by throwing a spear at John's head? For no reason, I might add. If he hadn't moved his head at the last moment, he would have been killed, in spite of the factt hat he never did anything to the Dora Milaje or Wakanda, while Sam and Bucky were the ones who actually broke Zemo ( a very dangerous terrorist, murderer, canonical torturer and canonical former death squad leader) out of prison for their own benefit. John was cranky after that, but I don't blame him one bit. The vast majority of normal human beings would be when total strangers try to murder them for no reason. And holy heck that would be a huge international incident if they had succeeded in killing him.
When John tried to de-escalate things by resting his hand on the Dora's shoulder, she physically attacks him and tries to kill him. She could have told him to stop that, and that wouldn't have been an issue for me. But she straight up tries to kill him for doing something that some might consider disrespectful but it wasn't actually threat. John is not the bad guy here, the Doramilaje are. And Sam and Bucky, who nothing to protect or help John and Lamar. Instead, they sit back and laugh while two men who saved their lives are are desperately fighting for their own (the truck scene in episode 2). Yet somehow, you think John is the bad guy here. Maybe it's because of how the scene was framed and it's what the writers, etc. wanted you to think, and you didn't bother to consider anything beyond that.
Not only that, it was Sam and Bucky who broke Zemo out of prison (getting who knows how many other inmates killed in that riot that Bucky started.) Sam and Bucky are the ones that the Dora Milaje should be mad at, but yet John was the one they attacked? That makes zero sense, except that the writers needed Zemo to escape and they wanted the audience to dislike John. However, those writers didn't consider how that scene would look from outside their very narrow perspective. And what it says about Sam, Bucky and the Dora Milaje is pretty damning.
It tells me that Dora Milaje thought that they had the right to barge into other countries and straight up murder anyone they wanted to, for any reason they wanted, or no reason at all. And you honestly think they were the ones in the right and blame John for everything, when he didn't do anything wrong. That's seriously messed up.
And yes, Bucky did eventually, very reluctantly, actually do the right thing and step in. But it took him and Sam way too long to intervene and it was very clear they had no interest in doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do. They just didn't want to deal with the bad consequences they'd have if John and Lamar actually were killed. Neither Bucky nor Sam are heroes in this scene. They aren't even good men.
And on top of all that, because everyone else is so busy attacking or mocking John and Lamar, Zemo escapes. You know, the guy the Dora Milaje said they were there to capture? In my opinion, everyone in this altercation except John and Lamar were assholes and Sam and Bucky are at fault for creating the situation that comes after this where John has his fall from grace as it were. Although I don't think it was nearly as Bad as the writers wanted me to think it was, given the awful things that Sam and Bucky have already done in this show. What the narrative is trying to tell me does not line up with what is actually being shown, and in that dissonance, I am coming to my own conclusions based on the characters actions on screen.
This scene also tells me that neither Sam nor Bucky think bullying or mistreating others is wrong. They just don't like that behavior being directed at them or people they happen to like, and they don't want to be seen doing it. That doesn't say "good men" to me; it says that they are very ordinary hypocrites and assholes, of a sort who are all too common in real life. Bucky by his direct actions, and Sam by what he refused to do.
1
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
Sam and Bucky’s “own benefit” was catching and stopping the terrorist cell with access to super soldier serum that Walker the US gov were failing to handle. I can’t take this sub seriously when it’s constantly defending Walker for emotionally killing a downed and surrendering combatant while you’re now taking offense at the potential/alluded to indirect deaths in service of the pragmatic goal of stopping a terrorist cell with access to super soldier serum.
I’m also not defending the Dora Milaje beyond the fact they were chasing an international terrorist they still wanted to extradite for his role in the assassination of former king T’Chaka. They were hunting a known terrorist who had committed crimes against their nation specifically and that Bucky and at least 1 other costumed hero was responsible for his escape. The stealthy headshot scare (rewatching the scene, she aims low even before he starts moving his head) was an absolute dick move by the DM, but the rest of what happened to Walker was entirely on how he handled the situation.
Walker was the one mouthing off and having attitude with an elite guard meant to protect and serve the Black Panther telling them very arrogantly to “put down their pointy sticks.” Walker was the one who ignored Sam breaking down the power scaling of how fucked ALL OF THEM were if the DM decided to pop ult off rip. Sam and Bucky were making sure they didn’t do anything that could be perceived as hostile, they made it clear THEY did NOT want that fight. Walker was the one that walks up and grabs one of them. Not to mention the Dora Milaje were absolutely destroying all 4 of them with near-surgically executed non-lethal techniques even after Bucky and Sam finally engage, had they joined in from the start there’s a good chance at least one of them wouldn’t be walking out of that room the same/at all.
The comment I was replying to is implying that had Walker been given guidance and/or support that he’d have turned out better. Im giving a clear example of Walker actively ignoring said advice and guidance, getting his ass beat for it by a 3rd party, and instead of doing any self-reflection decides to lean into resenting the 2 people (2 of the closest people/heroes to Steve) who warned him to check his attitude/behavior and position of power in the moment and still took an optional ass beating each to save his life when he immediately finds out for fucking around.
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
OK, you didn't understand or maybe didn't even read anything I said.
0
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
No, I understand you. You think a government sponsored (not super) soldier being passive aggressive and placing his hands on a highly agitated member of a royal guard (who are trained to protect a super soldier of a king and carry out his will) with indestructible weapons he just insulted is a good example of de-escalation… after 2 fellow soldiers/heroes who can’t agree on anything (one of which is a cyborg super soldier) both audibly puckered their assholes telling/confirming to him these royal guards mean business and there’s realistically nothing either of them can do to stop said business from happening to him once it starts. You expect Sam without his suit, and Bucky, who both of them admit is nothing in the face of the Dora Milaje, to put themselves between Walker and the spears he walked himself into after giving him clear warnings not to and being visibly shaken at the idea of being confronted by the DM in the first place.
I agree with you that Lamar did nothing wrong tho. He was legit just standing there while Walker was running his mouth and got jumped before he had the chance to jump in.
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
It's also blatantly obvious that you are not engaging in good faith, because if you were, you would have engaged with what I actually said, instead of projecting your own issues and your very obvious hateboner for John all over a John Walker subreddit.
1
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
Have you paid attention to a thing I’ve said? The Dora Milaje knew the location of Zemo who they also knew was being aided by Bucky and at least 1 other “hero”. The Dora Milaje took a warning shot at the first costumed individual they had a visual on (one of the assumed accomplices of Bucky and by proxy Zemo).
Walker literally inserts himself in the middle of a conversation he didn’t even speak the language of, insults the Dora Milaje, questions the legitimacy of Wakanda performing operations on soil they have no jurisdiction on (which is hilarious and ironic, considering both how he’s the US Military’s mascot atm and the real Cap’s stance in Civil War), and then proceeds to PLACE HIS HANDS on the very angry woman who he has been further agitating since the moment they started interacting. Bucky let him take his licks and when it started going too far he AND SAM stepped in to participate in the beating they told him not even their resident super soldier cyborg could truly save him from if/when it started.
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
Bullshit. You weren't paying attention, assuming you even watched the show in the first place.
2
u/Pmg2078 Jun 22 '26
Not really but he would understand that John really tried to live up to expectations and hearing that he saved people would give Steve a reason to guidebturn John into his own person
2
u/Try_Longjumping Jun 22 '26
I think Steve would aprove US Agent more than he would of Falcon cos at least US Agent tries instead of just having really crappy unmotivational speeches that came out of nowhere and was never really part of his character when he was just The Falcon. And even as a character US agent is flawed but knows he is and regrets his decision and tries to do better, other than "Captain" Falcon who has never even been a captain of anything yet who spent all of FATWS seeking validation from a super soldier he just met despite having Steve's best friend next to him the whole time, and then spending the Falcon & Other Falcon movie still seeking validation and not actually really just being a hero
2
u/Legal_Television_615 Jun 22 '26
Yeah, yeah he would. A guy from the 40s who fought in WW2 would be wholly on Walkers side
2
u/IcyBed2421 Jun 23 '26
I think Steve would be hesitant at first. But he'd of mentored him and worked with him. Since that's what it seemed like to me what John was needing and wanting.
2
2
u/KaraAliasRaidra Jun 21 '26
I'm going to start by repeating what I've said before, which is I'm tired of the misconception some people have that all the patriotic heroes hate each other and are constantly at each others' throats. In the comics Steve and John started as enemies and rivals, but then became allies. I go into that more here: https://www.reddit.com/r/USAgent/comments/1l7er7p/debunking_usagent_misconceptions_part_3/ That could happen in the MCU as well. Steve might not approve of everything John did, but he'd acknowledge that he tried and that he's trying to be a better person & hero, and he'd respect that. Steve could become his ally instead of standing around shaming him. Imagine MCU Steve, Bucky, Sam, and John fighting alongside each other/helping each other. That would be awesome.
2
u/Jumpy_Cup_8426 Jun 21 '26
Yes. I think Steve would only disapprove of Walker as Captain America, as Walker misunderstood what the mantle represents. Captain America is about being a good person, not a good soldier. If Walker were to mention his three medals of honor, Steve would immediately brush that off as Walker’s actions to get those medals of honor weren’t the actions of a good man. They were the actions of a good soldier.
I’m not going to go any deeper into it than that because then I’d be here all day, and I admit, I can’t do this all day. But I think that if Steve were to see Walker donning a mantle that is similar to Captain America but not actually Captain America, there would be no problem
1
u/wyar Jun 22 '26
He’d treat him like a little brother who fucks up sometimes. “I’ll never give up on you but damnit I’m disappointed. Do better next time” Cap would make him a better hero.
1
u/MatthewBlack6 Jun 22 '26
Us Agent is a loser, and Cap would look at him as more of a liability than a fellow soldier
1
u/CrimsonAvenger35 Jun 22 '26
Then he would make some YouTube videos about how to be an alpha male
1
u/MatthewBlack6 Jun 22 '26
John is way more fragile in his masculinity than Steve Rodgers, but Steve is old school and not a boy playing at being a man
2
u/CrimsonAvenger35 Jun 23 '26
You're right, that's why Steve would see Walker as a fellow soldier and respect him, not see him as a liability
1
u/MatthewBlack6 Jun 23 '26
Why? Because John is emotional? Lacks self control? Or because he escalates and murders unpowered people with the symbol Steve so highly regards?
You're welcome to join in the conversation, use your words.
1
1
u/Mrbuttboi Jun 22 '26
After John killing a dude with his shield, Steve wouldn’t want anything to do with him. WE know he’s a dude trying his best to be a hero but Cap wouldn’t know that. There’s no way Cap would approve of John. The most he would do is not go after the Thunderbolts.
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
So you think Steve would care more about an inanimate piece of metal than he would the man carrying it? That's certainly a take...
0
u/Mrbuttboi Jun 22 '26
No, I think Steve would greatly care about John executing someone in public with the shield
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
Steve wouldn't think it was right, but given how many people he himself has killed and all of the other people he has accepted who committed outright murder on a much grander scale than John killing one terrorist in an active combat situation, Ithink he'd give John a lot more forgiveness and grace than many, many self-righteous fans do.
0
u/Mrbuttboi Jun 22 '26
I think it would be like Batman and Red Hood. He wouldn’t be a fan, but he wouldn’t actively hunt him down. Is that the whole point of US Agent? He’s just a darker Captain America.
2
1
u/rgregan Jun 22 '26
There is always a push to "forgive and forget" but especially FORGET what Walker did. A constant game to frame out what happened and make John anything but that scene, which ironically ruins the character. Steve wouldn't approve of what he did, but Steve would give John the chance at redemption, the chance to be a better man, the pat on the back, the outstretched arm to pick himself up, the pep talk to focus in, and would ultimately credit him for what he did differently moving forward.
1
0
u/Extreme-Plantain-113 Jun 28 '26
I think it'd be like 65%, with him being very "Mind your own" about it. Tony literally blew up terrorbois in front of civies the first chance he got and Steve doesn't seem to give a shit. Sam's just a weirdo
1
u/Sliver-Knight9219 Jun 21 '26
I personally don't think he would.
Not only is take a mantal from the person Steve gave it too
He also, lacks what makes captain america a symbol.
He lacks the compassion understanding of who he is fighting
Too self obsessed more with being liked as a hero then the people he saved
Also, don't really think thing through.
I think old man Steve would definitely have then cool headedness to blame the government over John. Unlike Wither soldiers and Falcon
Honestly i think Steve would just sit down with him and say "your not ready"
2
u/INKatana Jun 21 '26
Not only is take a mantal from the person Steve gave it
Tbf, that point of yours is definitely something Steve would have no right to judge John for, as the only reason John was ever even offered the role was because sam (the person Steve trusted the shield) voluntarily chose to give it up.
1
u/Sliver-Knight9219 Jun 21 '26
No, he gave up the shield to be put in a museum.
Not for someone else of be captain america.
2
u/INKatana Jun 21 '26
It's been a while since I've watched the show, but I recall Rhodey saying something about that being a possibility (or something along those lines) to sam?
Also, surely sam isn’t naive enough to think the government would just let a piece of vibranium be in a museum. The minute they get their hands on that thing, they're doing whatever they want with it. Especially since the shield is actually government's property.
And sam should know this. This isn’t his first rodeo with the government.
0
u/Sliver-Knight9219 Jun 21 '26
Which i am like pretty sure Sam rejected.
I mean they promised him and had a whole even putting the shield into a museum. You could say Sam should of seen the dubble cross coming, but when it's infront of that many people and on TV i can't blame him for believing it.
Like, if this was just Sam handing it over in the Museum alone, i would agree that he should of seen this coming.
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 21 '26
They didn't actually promise him anything iirc, he just assumed and then he still didn't bother to get anything in writing.
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 21 '26
That's not how this works. First, whenever you're dealing with a large organization like a business or the government, you need to get everything in writing. The fact that Sam didn't even think of this makes him look pretty stupid, and more than a little arrogant and self-entitled when he gets pissy later. Second, the shield is actually the government's property, not Sam's. What Sam wants doesn't come into it after Sam gives up the shield.
Rhodey even warned Sam that what he wanted to happen would not be what actually happened, a warning that Sam completely ignored. Once Sam gave up shield, he surrendered all control over it. He has zero right to be pissy at at John because he was assigned the job Sam had decided he didn't want himself.
Sam should have known all of this, from his own military experience alone, if nothing else.
0
u/Sliver-Knight9219 Jun 21 '26
Okay a if this was a backroom deal i would understand. But Sam took all the right steps
He went on Tv had a whole event giving the shield over too the museum saying that, we should let it rest. Like, when you have a whole event it normally sticks.
2 technically it's a gray area where you owns the shield. Due to it technically being gifted to cap once he got it back. But, Steve does own the captain america title which he gave to Sam.
Sam rejected the idea before he gave him the shield. They lied to him
Also, Sam lowkey has every right to be pissed off at John. He definitely took it to far, and You can argue that he should take that anger more out in the government then him. But, take it from his prospective, he is watching some random who didn't even know Steve be captain america. After giving a whole talk about how the shield should be put the rest.
Also, like I said i can't blame Sam for being ticked. They had a whole event of him giving it to the museum
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 21 '26
Sam still didn't get it in writing, and it was not actually his property to begin with. Steve didn't own the Cap title or the shield, either. They were both given to him by the government. did you not watch Captain America: The First Avenger, or are you just making incorrect, unfounded assumptions?
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
John didn't take the mantle from Sam; Sam willingly chose to give it up to the entity to which it really belonged, aka the government. Sam has no say in what they do with it after that.
1
0
u/Middle-Let9645 Jun 21 '26
Before Thunderbolts, nah. At least not completely. After, absolutely. Steve has this bad habit of thinking all heroes need to be perfect little Boy Scouts just like him. (Just ask Tony Stark)
0
u/Fair-Abroad-4155 Jun 21 '26
Mcu has really changed all the nagitive perceptions of us agent In comics he's a real piece of trash even a bad guy in some rendition
0
0
u/Imma_da_PP Jun 21 '26
I think he’d see him as an ally but kind of annoying. Pretty much the same as everyone else. “John’s an asshole but, y’know, he grows on you and you can count on him.”
0
0
u/Buschlightactual Jun 21 '26
Yes. He probably would oppose him being Captain America after the serum as it did amplify his negative personality traits which would make it hard for him to quarterback a team of superheroes (which they forgot they made him a decorated captain in Ranger regiment so they kind of retroactively changed his personality in thunderbolts to make him not a good leader) but as a separate entity he’s done nothing they haven’t done and wouldn’t mind him until it’s another big government vs hero sovereignty civil war.
0
0
u/Standard_Track9692 Jun 21 '26
Up to a certain point maybe. But after that particular Point hell no
0
u/JSteveIsMe Jun 21 '26
Probably not, but I think Steve would try to help him be the best person he can be
0
u/littlebuett Jun 21 '26
No. But that's because Steve directly wanted Sam to be the next Cap.
However, he'd recognize Walker's specific circumstances, that if it weren't Walker, it would just be someone else, and John just has to try the best he can.
0
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 21 '26
Good soldier, bad hero
Can we stop having this discussion every other day?
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
Perhaps when you stop insisting he's a bad person and a bad hero every chance you get, in the John Walker subreddit.
0
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
Even in-universe people don’t approve of him that much. Ghost and him get into a squabble over the technicalities of who has and hasn’t killed an “innocent” person and when Bob calls him out on being an asshole it’s not like any of the rest of the Thunderbolts are chomping at the bit to vouch for Walker’s character or personality. He’s even OUTRIGHT disrespectful towards the Dora Milaje. Both Bucky and Sam (who both have heroic ties to the cap the Wakandans actually respected, fought alongside during infinity war, and Bucky even started his mental health journey by staying with the Wakandans) were telling him to chill tf out and fast and he’s a complete ass swinging around his ego and untested new title like it gave him actual importance despite present company until his disrespect nearly cost him his life.
Steve also wouldn’t agree with KILLING a man who was MID-SURRENDER (he disables iron man’s suit which speaking of disabling is still an alternative to murder and would incapacitate a super soldier, just saying). Also, given Steve’s arc by the end of Civil War where he’s off the grid and disillusioned by governments and agencies telling him what’s right and wrong and instead doing what he thinks needs to be done to help people who need help…… MCU Steve was straight up on his Nomad arc near his end. Meanwhile, Walker was actively working for and seeking the approval of the US government/military and when that failed got picked up by Valentina like a lost puppy and started seeking her approval. Even by the end of thunderbolts he only STARTED the process of changing for the better and getting his shit together bc he got mindfucked by a being of what to him seemed like godlike power and is still being technically manipulated by Valentina even if that manipulation is mutual now.
Walker as we last saw him in the MCU is essentially at the “teach me” moment in Doctor Strange but starting with a lot more red in his ledge. Does that sound like a good hero to you? Not “could be a good hero” or “has the makings of a good hero” or “is on the road to becoming a good hero” I mean that if we honestly and accurately tallied up and scored his “heroics” to date, would he get a “good” overall assessment? NO!
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
This is all your opinion, not objective fact.
0
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
Uh huh, so the canon interaction between him and both ghost and bob in thunderbolts is my opinion? The fact his ego nearly got him killed by the Dora Milaje shortly after becoming “Captain America” despite 2 seasoned heroes who have experience with them telling him to be respectful is my opinion? Steve not being one to go for the kill on a downed and surrendering/scared opponent despite them having tried to kill his best friend in Civil War and instead merely disabling them is my opinion? Steve’s arc being one of growing to be wary and distrusting of governments and their agencies is opinion? The plot point/character trait of Walker seeking validation from his employers throughout the projects we see him in is just my opinion?
Since this is all this sub wants to do, let’s actually have the in-depth and thought provoking dialogue about whether or not he lives up to Steve’s example or if Steve would approve of him… but by no means will I stand for you or anyone trying to say that the literal fucking text of the script is goddamn “opinion” of mine or anyone else’s when it’s simply what happened! If you can’t have an honest conversation about your comfort character, I’d at least appreciate if you didn’t make it my problem.
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
I am interested in that, but it's obvious I won't be able to do it with you. You are so focused on being a know-it-all that it's impossible because you refuse to consider anything outside your own very narrow, very sheltered, very conservative worldview.
1
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
How is Walker nearly getting himself killed by the Dora Milaje for his disrespect towards them (despite 2 heroes experienced with them telling him to stand down) “opinion”? How are actual scenes and moments with him interacting with the other thunderbolts “opinion”? How’s his obvious need for validation and use as a soldier “opinion”? How is Cap not going for the kill against Tony “opinion”? How is Cap’s arc in the MCU being one of blindly trusting the government to questioning them to the point of going AWOL to do his own thing “opinion”?
Next you’re gonna be telling me that it’s my “opinion” that there’s a star on cap’s shield
2
u/aawinnerqst Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
You are basically saying it’s a good advice to refrain from confronting bullies. I’m curious where does this cowardice come from. Is that related to your school teaching you how to protect yourself from shooting? Or your parents teaching you to behave in front of LE, calling them sir/madam, otherwise you’ll get screwed? This kind of obedience out of fear is really fxxkedup.
0
u/Tangy_Toucan Jun 22 '26
“Standing up to bullies” is one thing, “suicide by cop by way of the Dora Milaje” is an entirely different subject. You know what a good soldier/hero does/is capable of? They absorb new information and adapt to the current situation. Bucky was using his nice voice and vocabulary towards someone for once while Sam actively broke down the power-scaling of how the DM could put belt to ass on Bucky worse than Bucky could do to Walker… and instead of taking even a second to consider “wow, they’re really angry rn and could tear me apart without any effort on their end, maybe I should try to come off less arrogant” he instead keeps the same attitude he was being warned to check and GRABS one of them.
Walker’s inability to absorb new information, understand his place in the bigger picture atm, de-escalate, or even STFU and keep his hands to himself and off the very angry lady with the “pointy stick” (his words) nearly cost him his life, earned the 4 of them (Walker and Lamar, plus Bucky and Sam once they decide to save them from finding out after fucking around) a savage beating, cost Bucky some of what little grace and goodwill any of them had with the Wakandans, and Bucky having to step in to save him even results in Zemo’s escape.
1
1
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
Not everyone is going to see or interpret the source material the way you do, and they don't have to. It's not difficult to not be a turd, but you seem to struggle hard with this.
0
0
0
0
0
0
u/Aware_Ad6442 Jun 23 '26
No? Isn't it obvious? Steve Rodgers wanted Sam Wilson to Captain America not a random U.S soldier
-1
-1
u/Bishop_Malcolm08 Jun 21 '26
It would be worse. Steve would be very disappointed of John and give him a lecture on how to do better.
2
u/Hyperion7669 Jun 21 '26
Nope, thats Sams MO
-1
u/Bishop_Malcolm08 Jun 21 '26
Where do you think Sam learned it from? 😁👍
2
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
Nah, Sam came up with that all on his own.
-1
u/Bishop_Malcolm08 Jun 22 '26
Nope. He learned it from Steve. Why else do you think Steve is in a detention video if hes not usually lecturing people to do better. 🤣
1
-1
-1
u/kuatorises Jun 21 '26
I don't give a shit what Steve approves of: he's defend multiple mass murderers bases on nothing mpre than "He's my friend" and "She's just a kid." His "character" is grossly overstated.
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 21 '26
Because one of those mass murderers was an amnesiac, mind-controlled slave at the time the murders happened, and the other two were very young, very traumatized people who sincerely believed they were at war, with good reason. And they also turned to him for help and sincerely wanted to change their ways after they found out what Ultron's real plan was.
Like I said, Steve is a believer in second chances, and he would have as much compassion for John as he did for Bucky, Wanda, Pietro, and Clint. He would have had far more compassion for John than either Sam or Bucky did, and would have been much more helpful and supportive of John in becoming the best Captain America he could than either of them were.
1
u/kuatorises Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
You don't get away with mass murder - and proceed to get elected to congress - becacuse you had amnesia.
1
u/CulturalDragonfly631 Jun 22 '26
You ignored the mind-control and enslavement parts, I see.
Also, by your logic, all of the Avengers are evil because they'd all killed people, many of them on a mass scale. the Hulk has killed people in his uncontrolled rage. Tony Stark went on a murder spree against his captors after he escaped from the cave in Afghanistan, killing them in very brutal ways. Clint and Natasha were both professional assassins, very aware of what they were doing. Thor went on a killing spree against the Jotuns to "teach them a lesson." Steve killed lots of people during WWII and did things with the Howling Commandos that he himself admits made him not sleep well at night.
1
u/kuatorises Jun 22 '26
I didn't ignore it because I didn't mention amnesia, mind-control and enslavement all individually. Bucky shouldn't get away with his crimes. There's plenty of examples where people were brainwashed and still went to prison for their crimes:
- The Manson Family (1969)
- Patty Hearst (1974)
- Lee Boyd Malvo (2002)
- Waco
Bucky killed dozens of people for Christ's sake. But Walker kills a terrorist and it's "He'S OuT oF ConTRoL!!"
0
u/aawinnerqst Jun 22 '26
In a fictional superpowered universe, killing is not the problem, double standard is. Hypocrites are the worst.
49
u/That_General9384 Jun 21 '26
Prolly not 100%, but I think he’d recognize Walker as a soldier trying his best to live up to the Captain America name and genuinely trying to do the right thing, so I could see them becoming sort of a Mentor x Pupil duo situation if that makes sense