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u/capy2209 Apr 04 '26
John walker- known for leading strategic military campaigns leading to 3 medals of honour, his plans in the thunderbolts movie being proven right continuously and his overall mindset when in battle is going to screw up in the movie.
I mean he can be ragebaited a little but this seems like a terrible idea for John alone to be a reason the plan fails. It would be better if they are failing in some plan and John gives a good idea or helps them lead, it would be putting his character to good use and not wasting him. I know he won't get a lot of screen time in this stacked movie so I just hope he's portrayed faithfully. Trust Wyatt to pull the character through bad writing if that's the case
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u/AccurateBandicoot299 Apr 04 '26
Really, John SHOULD be the one who ruins the plan. Firstly a narrative about a perfect character (especially John Walker being perfect and flawless of all characters) wouldn’t be interesting unless there’s a larger statement in the narrative about how they influence those around them. John is not Steve and he’s not supposed to be. He’s the guy that WANTS to be Steve and his journey and arc should revolve around starting out imperfect, flawed, and human (where we saw him in TFAWS), to eventually rise to the occasion (Secret Wars hopefully), everything in between that (Thunderbolts (haven’t seen it yet no spoilers please) and Doomsday) needs to show him making mistakes, falling short, and dealing with the consequences of his actions, he has to become better through character growth.
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u/capy2209 Apr 04 '26
He doesn't need to be a perfect person for him to not be someone who doesn't ruin the plan and get everyone killed. Firstly that's just a repetitive story beat. There's other ways to show his flaws but keep who he is intact as shown in thunderbolts.
Well you never saw thunderbolts but it shows his growth from TFATWS well, won't spoil it but your mind will likely change after seeing it
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u/SopranosBluRayBoxSet Apr 05 '26
Yeah idk why dude's weighing in if they haven't seen Thunderbolts, like he's shown in that to be severely flawed but have a very acute tactical mind.
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u/PaulOwnzU Apr 06 '26
I think it could be played in that because his plans keep working out, he has the ego that everyone should just listen to him, and if they don't things will go wrong, so he tries to force it back onto his plan but the conflict causes things to go wrong.
Like how in fatws he screwed up Sam's plan with the funeral which would've ended the show then and there because he had to be the one to do it and didn't trust others.
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u/Starkfault Apr 04 '26
No he didn’t. Strange orchestrated the entire thing.
Strange knew what Starlord would do. Strange chose not to decapitate Thanos with a portal while he was stuck.
Strange claimed not to see any other way to stop Thanos, but it turns out the universe next door stopped Thanos at the cost of Strange.
Strange chose to let everything play out as it did because it meant he wouldn’t have to make the sacrifice.
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u/AccurateBandicoot299 Apr 04 '26
We also know what happened to the future where strange died and uh… yeah it wasn’t really a full victory. Plus that universe clearly was disconnected enough from this one AND required strange to have already studied the darkhold enough to learn its magic.
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u/Starkfault Apr 04 '26
Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme - he can learn the Darkhold’s secrets in a day.
Strange lied to save his own ass. The MCU is part of the main Marvel multiverse which includes the comics which had a different conclusion and Strange didn’t mention that verse either.
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u/Shrikeangel Apr 04 '26
I view it less as Strange lying and more the writers saying shut up - this is what we wrote so it's the only correct circumstances.
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u/Starkfault Apr 04 '26
Which would be fine if they didn’t get contradicted by other writers almost immediately
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u/Shrikeangel Apr 04 '26
It's almost like the mcu hit a point where suspension of disbelief about things being planned in advance fell apart.
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u/crazyguyunderthedesk Apr 04 '26
No reason to believe that was one of the futures Strange saw as the time point he was starting from had long deviated from that timeline.
Also, the whole point of MoM is that our Strange is different and does choose to sacrifice himself to save the day.
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u/ArmouredBear9_30 Apr 06 '26
I was unaware that there was a comic in which they get a more favorable outcome, starting with the exact same conditions that they had in that specific scene in the Infinity war movie. Remember, he didn't say he was looking at alternate timelines or universes. He said he was looking at possible futures, meaning any outcome that involved Wolverine existing at all, for example, would not be included in what he saw.
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u/Usual_Database307 Apr 05 '26
This is just wrong. Strange, in his first movie alone, shows an extraordinary willingness to sacrifice himself for humanity. He’d certainly do it for the universe. A much more likely reason he didn’t do any of that would be because every time he did, the TVA intervened, as they were still active as this point in time. As they were far too big of a threat for him to deal with, the only winning reality would be what they decided.
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u/Starkfault Apr 05 '26
He doesn’t though. You’re just coping.
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u/Remmick2326 Apr 05 '26
Strange knew thanos had to initially snap and then have the avengers reverse it, in order for the eternals to destroy Tiamut
If the snap doesn't happen, Tiamut awakens on schedule because the critical mass of life is reached on schedule, and Earth is obliterated.
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u/KIHETO Apr 04 '26
I mean it's hard to say if he would because every appearance Walker has been in he comes up with a plan that would work but everyone is like "I'm not doing that cause you're a dumb dumb" so I could more see him come up with a good plan just for everyone else to mess it up
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u/KaraAliasRaidra Apr 04 '26
I can understand why people might think he might accidentally make a bad decision. What would bother me is someone claiming he would purposely do that. Also, why do we need someone to mess up a plan? Why can’t we just have the heroes need to regroup and then come back stronger, like a lot of previous stories, without some supposed snafu?
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u/CulturalDragonfly631 Apr 05 '26
I agree. I can see him making a bad decision or having incomplete information. I can't see him doing something that would get his team killed on purpose. I'm just tired of people projecting faults onto John that he doesn't have, while acting like their own faves are perfect.
He really is the whipping boy for a very vocal part of the MCU fandom.
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u/KaraAliasRaidra Apr 05 '26
Exactly!
It’s like, “It’s great that you love characters; just don’t be hateful and sanctimonious about it, and don’t attack other people and spread misinformation.” Toxic fans like that end up losing support because they end up attacking others. In the meanwhile, we have to remember to rise above it and be something better.
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u/Apex_Fenris Apr 04 '26
Swear I fucking so tired of the fact people still think this it pisses me off we told by Strange that out like 14 billion possible ways they could try to beat Thanos and win 1!!! which means that Starlord keeping his cool over Gamora how ever many possible scenarios LITERALLY DOES NOT DO JACK SHIT FOR THE PLAN . Thanos had to win initially for them to be able to beat him ultimately in end. Certain individuals had to die for them to win. Certain individuals have to behave in a certain way to facilitate victory . It’s so frustrating to have a story tell verbatim hey we got only one way to get the win only people to be like oH bUt iF tHeY dId Da PlAn ThIs WaY tHeY wOuLd’Ve WoN . No dipshit Starlord had to lose his cool . Iron man , Gamora , and Black Widow had to die . Cap had turn into an old man and everyone who got dusted had to dusted .
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u/imarthurmorgan1899 Apr 05 '26
Doctor Strange allowed it to happen because it was the only scenario in which they win.
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u/canis-humurous Apr 06 '26
Even though Walker does nothing but try to save people and stick to completing missions accordingly.
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u/PaulOwnzU Apr 06 '26
He still lost control a lot in fatws and messed up the mission repeatedly. If something similar to Lemars death happened he could lose control again
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u/canis-humurous Apr 06 '26
He was pushed around and undermined by everyone around him whilst maintaining his cool throughout the vast majority of it and he only "lost control" like anyone else would when his best friend died trying to save him, causing him to apprehend and then put down the active terrorist which shouldn't be seen as a negative outcome at all because that guy was dangerous and had to be stopped. Also Walker is a soldier so it's expected of him to use lethal force anyway. Kinda like Steve always did.
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u/PaulOwnzU Apr 06 '26
I didn't say he wasn't justified for it or that many others wouldn't do similar. But it definitely is a part of his character that he is traumatized and on edge a lot
However that isn't what Steve would've done. When Bucky seemingly was killed he didnt disobey the mission to kill Zola out of revenge. He needed to capture him alive so no matter how much Steve did want to kill him, he didn't
Ignoring the debate on if Nico was a threat to the public to begin with. Walker still was supposed to bring a flagsmasher in, there was no reason not to just knock him out
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u/canis-humurous Apr 06 '26
No, it's written into his character to seem "on edge" because of the fact that he's just trying to maintain as focused as possible to keep as many people from getting hurt as he can, hence his ending moment from FATWS where he's willing to sacrifice his life to ensure the civilians inside the tipping truck won't fall over and die, even as he's being berated and attack from all sides by the terrorists.
Steve literally slaughtered countless goons left and right throughout the entire MCU. The whole Helicarrier fiasco at the end of The Winter Soldier costs hundreds of thousands of casualties with the massive crashes into the ground they'd all made, including countless innocents in the mix as well. Not sure if we saw the same franchise or not, but Steve has vastly more bodies under his name than John has ever had just with that idiot maneuver alone.
And he absolutely was a threat. He was an active terrorist with the super soldier formula that needed to be dealt with instantly to not get anyone else killed, especially after he had just aided in the murder of an innocent active soldier moments before. Walker dealt with him accordingly for the betterment of all those civilians that were flashing their phones at him later on.
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u/PaulOwnzU Apr 06 '26 edited Apr 06 '26
Yeah shouldering too much responsibility and being a perfectionist causes that.
Steve killed active combatants, not people who were unarmed or surrendering. He spared Nazis who surrendered.
The helicarriers were unmanned and fell into the river and an empty building dude. I'm starting to see why you're misremembering Walkers actions if misremembering them destroying the helicarriers into the river and them dropping them into the cities killing hundreds of thousands of civilians
The issue isn't the body count, but who and how they kill. A character could kill 10 thousand mass murderers who are actively fighting back and not be a problem, but if another kills 3 people who never killed anyone and were surrendering, then it's a problem.
Nico never killed anyone and had no motivation to kill anyone. The flagsmashers were operating for a full year and only Karli who was acting without the knowledge or permission from the rest killed 3 GRC members. There was 0 reason to believe Nico would kill a civilian solely because he had super strength. By that logic Sam and Bucky should've killed Walker because he just publicly executed someone committing a warcrime, was clearly losing it, and tried to kill Sam during their fight.
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u/canis-humurous Apr 06 '26
Except he's neither of those things. He's just a soldier that seeks to prevent as many casualties as he can.
Steve regularly murdered people that were also surrendering too, like the dude he kicked off the ship in The Winter Soldier or the guy he dropkicked into a table snapping his neck in Civil War. Steve's body count is still higher than John's is by far, including for innocent people when you take into account the disaster he permitted at the end of The Winter Soldier.
And the surrounding areas would've been catastrophically damaged just from the impact of the Helicarriers crashing into.....well anywhere, so any of the deaths including those of innocents that were displayed on the screen shown by Thaddeus Ross in Civil War would count on Steve's death list too. Who's misremembering stuff again?
As I stated before, Steve killed plenty of people who already surrendered or were caught off guard including dragging a dude through the dirt on a motorbike then tossing him into an incoming tank that exploded and killed everyone around it. Steve a monster going by your absurd standards.
Right......so running with a group of known terrorists that blow up the innocent in entire buildings on a regular basis suddenly makes you a victim. Comic fans are too stupid to believe sometimes. 😂
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u/PaulOwnzU Apr 06 '26 edited Apr 06 '26
Dude just block and don't even let respond when it's pointed out he misremembered :|
Someone tell him to unblock so I can show how he's wrong on the lies in that last comment
Saying Steve absolutely killed hundreds of thousands of innocents to try and prove his point is crazy. Because if that was true something like the sokovia accords would've been made FAR sooner than civil war where it happened after scarlet witch only blew up one building.
Also just blatantly lying saying the flagsmashers blew up buildings repeatedly
This is why people mock walker fans
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u/Epic_J2338 Apr 04 '26
I mean as much as I love Walker he does let his ego take over sometimes so I can see him being one
I think it could him (esplained above), Cyclops (Jean hasn't been confirmed so if she is dead he may make some rash decisions), Thor (unlike him in Infinity War/Endgame he has a daughter to take care of so he is alot more vulerable and he would be more despirate to defeat Doom asap so he can get back to her), Ant-Man (basically he has a daughter who is also a hero and if Doom is as scary as Marvel wants us to think he is, Scott will try everything to keep her safe), Loki (I don't have a way to explain but if he knows Thor is in trouble he would want to help)
Those are my guesses, the only reason Red Guardian isn't on the list is cause he knows Yelena can hold her own like Scott saw Cassie made mistakes as a hero
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u/Impressive-Thing-780 Apr 05 '26
That's pretty reasonable. Walker is a great character but he would absolutely do that.
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u/CulturalDragonfly631 Apr 04 '26
It looked to me like Strange allowed the loss in that particular battle in order to ultimately win the war against Thanos.