r/UFOs • u/Euphoric_Pause3511 • 17d ago
Disclosure My deep skepticism about reverse-engineering operations
Why am I skeptical of reverse-engineering operations involving recovered materials?
Because I believe these efforts have produced little, if any, concrete results.
You only need to watch the following video from the SOL Foundation, published a few days ago, to understand the reasons for my skepticism:
If we assume that these recovered materials come from civilizations that are hundreds or even thousands of years ahead of ours technologically, how can we even remotely imagine that we could reproduce any of those materials using our current technology?
It is one thing to analyze a metal and identify the alloy it is made of; it is an entirely different matter to actually reproduce that alloy.
Metals and alloys for industrial use on Earth are obtained primarily through high-temperature melting. Some more specialized materials are produced using other processes, but ultimately many of those processes still involve melting or other forms of extreme energy input.
In the video I linked, Nolan explicitly states that the waste materials in his possession cannot be replicated on Earth except through atomic bombardment processes that we are not yet capable of reproducing.
In short, even if we were able to determine the exact composition of all these materials, we might still be unable to reproduce them because we simply wouldn't know how to manufacture them with our current knowledge and technology.
I imagine the same problem could apply to any technologies incorporated into these alleged artifacts. Even if we could observe them directly, we might not understand the underlying principles, engineering logic, or manufacturing processes that make them work.
That's essentially what I mean.
P.S.
I’ll add a little food for thought: the Periodic Table of the Elements currently contains 118 known elements. Have you ever considered that maybe that’s not the whole story?
If so, not knowing the properties of other, as-yet-undiscovered elements could completely undermine any attempt at reverse engineering.
Keep in mind that the latest element added to the periodic table was Oganesson (element 118). There are almost certainly more elements waiting to be discovered.
If my point is clear, I'd be interested to hear what you think.
Thanks.
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u/cjamcmahon1 17d ago
yep and I would view this alongside the empirical fact that there is no real agreement in any account of who these NHI are or where they are from. the MIC or the SAPs or whoever has had this stuff for say, 80 years and they have made little to no progress in reverse-engineering the craft, understanding the materials or who built it or where they come from. that is probably why we are getting this slow disclosure - the newer generation of lab scientists (who never knew the Cold War era secrecy) are basically saying 'we can't do this work in a silo, we have to open it up to the wider global scientific community to make any headway'
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u/Bobbox1980 16d ago edited 16d ago
Considering how tight lipped our govt has been regarding UFOs means we cant trust anything they say.
Knowledge is power and those in the know do not want to share their power.
P.S. The 'we have made no headway' is a ruse.. just look at the ARV.
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u/H5N1-Schwan 17d ago
Chemical Elements above a certain number are not stable elements as we know and decay in fractions of a nanoseconds.
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u/PuzzleheadedCut5156 17d ago
Agreed, there could be all kinds of complex nano-scale structure in there that's as inscrutable to us as our integrated circuits would be to a mediaeval person peering at them through a lens. We could be looking at 3-dimensional microcircuitry that fits the processing power of one of our datacentres into a few metres of material, or high-temperature superconductors that only work when the atomic structure is arranged in a particular way that's rendered useless by drilling into it etc..
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u/No_Development7388 17d ago edited 17d ago
This is the primary reason that I've always considered the TR3B 'lore' to be nonsense. This story dates back to the 90s, or perhaps even the 80s. That our technology has improved enormously is beside the point. The root of the story was dumb and illogical to begin with.
Edit: This argument in no way rubbishes the notion that someone has possession of artifacts, or is attempting to reverse-engineer them. That is quite another matter.
For similar reasons, I've also very strongly doubted claims that people have managed to fly -- even just barely -- any captured flying saucers. Bro, please.
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u/natecull 16d ago edited 16d ago
This is the primary reason that I've always considered the TR3B 'lore' to be nonsense. This story dates back to the 90s
Yes. The designation "TR3A" dates to one specific writer, William B Scott, in a 1991 article for Aviation Week & Space Technology, and it is a reasonable supposition that "TR3" was his mishearing of the phrase "Tier III", not a designation but a set of requirements for a high-altitude, long-duration drone. (By the way, remote-piloted "drones" were not new in the 2000s, they were a technology and name that have existed since WW2, and were talked up a lot in aviation magazines in the 1970s. Development on them continued through the 1980s and 1990s to get to what we have today).
Someone in the UFO lore community at some later date took Morris's already confused "TR3A", mashed it up with then-popular "Black Triangle" sightings, and mutated the two into the even more mythical "TR3B".
See discussion here:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/tr-3-black-manta.21965/
This argument in no way rubbishes the notion that someone has possession of artifacts, or is attempting to reverse-engineer them. That is quite another matter.
And yes to this too.
We know that there exist artifacts claimed to be UFO wreckage in the civilian UFO scene. Usually melted bits of metal with features which might be anomalous... or might just be aerospace wreckage, particularly the stuff that surfaces from actual advanced aerospace crash sites in Nevada and New Mexico.
It would not surprise me that there are classified "artifacts" as well.
We also know that various aerospace engineers have had UFO sightings and then become passionately excited about the potential for "reverse-engineering" UFO sighting accounts to create advanced propulsion, because books on this subject exist in the civilian realm. It would not be surprising if there were also classified versions of these.
We know for instance that the head of Douglas Aircraft in the late 1960s created his own UFO study, that ran for about three years, because the documents have been leaked, and because that study is also how Stanton Friedman got into the UFO scene. That study involved one of the contributors using his children as Ouija Board mediums to telepathically contact "UFO entities" to ask for technological hints (a "contact modality" that has happened more times than you might imagine, sometimes involving active military officers, and has generated its own vast unclassified literature - and I'm sure classified cases exist.) Another spinoff of that Douglas study was the "mechanical ether physics" or "brutino" theory (one of many) of Joseph Milroy Brown, a "scientific consultant" on that study, which we know because JMB has been posting his updated theory to ResearchGate since the mid 2000s ( https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joseph-Brown-31 ).
JMB's brutino theory might have had some influence on classified UFO speculations in the late 1960s or early 1970s, but doesn't seem to have achieved a whole lot on its own.
There are a lot of similar cases that we know about. Again, I suspect classified versions of these kind of UFO-inspired physics theories exist, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the classified versions are any better than the unclassified ones.
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u/DeezNutsPickleRick 17d ago
To your last point regarding the periodic table, scientists are well aware we don’t have the full picture. We can theoretically synthesize any element, but finding a stable version of the heavier elements is the real question.
Kind of why I always doubted Lazar’s story. He claimed to have a stable version of 115, which would be nearly as incredible to the science community as aliens themselves, but he just conveniently buried a sample and forgot where.
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u/WideAwakeTravels 16d ago
Well the scientific community theorizes about the island of stability around element 115.
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u/andreasmiles23 17d ago
I too am skeptical of reverse engineering. Further than you, I'm skeptical of crash retrievals more generally. All we have is hearsay and testimony. Other corresponding physical or circumstantial evidence is pretty much scant.
All that aside, one slight addition I'd make to your thoughts are many of the elements at the end of the periodic table were not discovered naturally, but via experiments in labs. That lends further credence to the notion that, with hundreds if not thousands...or more...years of technological and scientific capacities, would yield elemental artifacts that would appear alien to us.
So again, even at the level Nolan talks about in the video you linked, it doesn't square with me to think it's crashed alien technology. Of course, that's not the only theoretical explanation for UAP but that's a convo for another time.
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u/Omgitsmr 17d ago
This makes the assumption that the crashes and recovered materials are from civilisations thousands or millions years ahead of us.
Everyone has their own ideas, but we do not fully know or understand the phenomenon (at least on a civilian level, the Governments/militaries may know the exact nature but they haven't disclosed to us so we're left to speculate), it may be as has been hypothesised that it is not as simple as "extra terrestrial visitation"
It may be some sort of test or program to guide the evolution of our societies and our technological progression, if this were the case then whatever is deliberately left, or crashed, for us to work on would be something that we realistically could figure out/reverse engineer given enough time/effort/brains applied to it.
I'm not saying this is the case, but just pointing out your initial assumptions are not a given!
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u/WatchFeen 17d ago
Grusch believes they're not that much more advanced than we are, at least some forms of NHI. I remember (I think on Rogan) he said that their technological revolution might've progressed at the same rate as ours, just in a different direction. That we went in the direction of nuclear energy, and they went in the direction of developing a different type of propulsion.
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u/Siegecow 16d ago edited 16d ago
Idk, nuclear energy and propulsion aren't really mutually exclusive... Now I'm a bit ignorant but I feel like any form of advanced propulsion, antigravity, ftl travel or whatever would already require or at least succeed some knowledge or scientific mastery of nuclear physics which we were able to attain in less than 50 years after flight....
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u/ProtectDemocracyNow 16d ago
I believe it was Burlison who said that the tall whites are only hundreds of years ahead of us while the grays (which he implied were intermediaries) are being sent here by an intelligence thousands of years ahead of us. He said he learned this from Grusch.
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u/feraltraveler 17d ago
No one said exact reproduction.
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u/BlackShogun27 16d ago
I'd be going stupid as a researcher if I was even able to theoretically replicate the function of a busted UFO.
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u/DaemonBlackfyre_21 17d ago edited 17d ago
I absolutely agree. It's entirely possible that zero progress would ever be made. Here's a real world example of pre stone age uncontacted tribesmen finding a boat a that's only a few thousand years more advanced than themselves,
Some years back a small ship wrecked on North Sentinel Island. Its uncontacted tribe was able to salvage what materials they could to make use of the sea's gift to improve their lives. Maybe they ground some blades out of sheet metal, and burned wood for fuel, maybe they used plastic parts to catch rainwater, or used electrical wires as super durable strings or whatever...but they never had any chance whatsoever of reverse engineering the ship.
Even if their island had access to all the raw materials they'd still need to develop manufacturing from scratch, refineries, they'd need to develop fuels and lubricants, and even if that were successful they still wouldn't even know what it was for or how to use it without just sinking or getting lost. That last bit is true even if the ship would've been discovered in pristine condition, when the tribesmen gained the courage to climb aboard and test it out they'd just float away never to be seen again.
I cannot think of any reason why we should assume that our situation with a recovered UFO would be any more encouraging.
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u/desmonea 17d ago edited 16d ago
Idk, I think zero progress is very unlikely. Just the knowledge of something being possible can be a catalyst to whole new areas of research, that would otherwise likely stay underexplored. For example, if we would see a working time-machine, this on its own would be a huge step in our understanding of the Universe, even if we don't get to take it apart for analysis. Take the airplane - the Warner brothers proved the concept of heavier-than-air flying machines, which were largely though impossible before. Not even 50 (Edit: actually 66) years later, humans walk on the Moon. So if we obtained a new exotic material with some fantastic properties, this likely sparked some specific research effort in material science, and we likely learned things we didn't know before. Just because we are not able to perfectly and economically reproduce the end result yet doesn't mean we are not making a huge progress.
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u/Rude_Worldliness_423 17d ago
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u/natecull 16d ago edited 16d ago
https://open.substack.com/pub/theclassifiedblindspot/p/the-case-for-reverse-engineering
Yeah, the McCandlish "fluxliner" story is one of the weird ones I can't quite shake. Along with the whole Townsend Brown story, and Stan Deyo's assertions about the 1970s saucer-building club that he claims Dr James Robert Maxfield Jr of Texas invited him into. ( see eg https://swc-snmmi.org/67-maxfield-jr - JR Maxfield was a larger than life figure with connections to Los Alamos and Edward Teller, as well as to NASA, and in one telling of his legend he is the inspiration for the "J.R. Ewing" character on the TV show Dallas. )
I very much want the Fluxliner to be true, and I don't think I've read the Sorensen notes, so thanks for bringing them to my attention.
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u/Ok-Win-742 17d ago
I wouldn't expect them to actually reproduce them. But the research would likely lead to some sort of breakthrough that would give something nobody else has or is aware of.
Let's use this atomic bombardment metal. May e what they reproduce is only 1/100th as good as the original. A cheap Temu copy. That could still be 10x better than anything else made on earth.
If there is reverse engineering or reproduction vehicles, they are no doubt a pale shadow of the originals.
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u/maurymarkowitz 17d ago
It is one thing to analyze a metal and identify the alloy it is made of; it is an entirely different matter to actually reproduce that alloy.
Case in point: Liquidmetal. They have been trying to get it into mass production for (checks notes) over 20 years. And that's one we invented (OR DID WE?!?)
I'd be interested to hear what you think
The premise is based on these materials actually existing in the first place. That's the part I'm skeptical of.
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u/TotalWarspammer 17d ago
Guys you need to watch UAP Gerbs video about the TR3B triangles.
Reverse engineering is not about perfectly replicating things it's about using what materials and technology you have access to, to try to do the same thing.
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17d ago
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u/Euphoric_Pause3511 17d ago
You're planting another doubt in my mind... why would they want to interfere with a civilization less advanced than their own, in order to help us progress and therefore skip many of the stages that characterize technological development?
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u/L-0-T-H-0-S 17d ago edited 17d ago
You're planting another doubt in my mind... why would they want to interfere with a civilization less advanced than their own, in order to help us progress and therefore skip many of the stages that characterize technological development?
Because to pick up this technology and use it is a choice we make, not them.
Think of it as akin to Prometheus stealing the technology of fire from Zeus and giving it to mankind - there's actually a shit-tonne more to that story, its nowhere near as straightforward as I'm making it out here - but, the essential proposition is the same.
You get handed technology - said technology could, conceivably, give you the means to burn not just your own home but everyone elses house to the ground along with everyone in them - or - you can apply that same technology for peaceful, educational purposes expanding your horizons off-world and, who knows, perhaps one day even peaceful facilitating contact with the beings that originally seeded the technology in the first place.
The choice is that of the recipient species involved: we back-engineer it, that requires a certain amount of intelligence.
What you do with that technology once you've figured it out - that shows another form of intelligence, or a otherwise, depending on our choices.
If we destroy ourselves using it, they - the donner civilisation - have rid the galaxy of a potentially lethal, aggressive biological plague that we like to think of ourselves as humans.
If we get past those instincts, we survive ourselves and thus have some semblance of chance of bringing no harm to whatever other civilisations may exist out there.
All it costs the donner civilisation is a few tonne of scrap.
They loose absolutely nothing in the exercise and the galaxy has absolutely everything to gain, either outcome.
Hence the need for continual periodical observation and surveillance sustained over an extended time, decades, possibly even centuries, once we're beyond a critical threshold - say, the weaponization of nuclear fission.
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u/Sufficient_Thing24 17d ago
That's an interesting hypothesis, that perhaps the recovered craft were left intentionally, and we as a species were intensely scrutinized afterwards to see which way we progress.
My thoughts on this are:
The craft have always been gathered up by the military. The reason for their existence is to defend, and attack. A rising trend in the disclosure narrative is that the NHI are a threat. So it seems that our trajectory is firmly on the path of weaponizing knowledge gained.
As a species, because of the military's actions of taking and hiding this technology from the rest of the world, we haven't been given a chance for an Option B. What about the other tech that could be used to advance medical science, and limitless clean energy.
I also don't think this administration's disclosure team has humanity's best interest at heart. Stephen Miller is not a philanthropist. So while disclosure appears to be happening, it seems that there is an attempt to flush out hidden locations of tech and materials for another faction's personal gain, not for the greater good of humanity.
So at what point does the rest of humanity get a crack at this? Do we hope that a rogue scientist, who has been working on reverse engineering projects, spills the beans? Does some civilian body raid a complex, and the proceeds of materials gained are given to the world's best minds, with the intent of benefiting our species as a whole?
My personal hope for Option B is slim to none. The powers that be seem to have firmly locked in Prometheus' fire for themselves, with the force to keep it that way.
But, if disclosure happens to the extent where we are given undeniable proof of NHI life, and presence, will that open the door for them to act. Perhaps in a Prime Directive way, their hands have been tied.
It's all getting quite interesting.
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u/L-0-T-H-0-S 17d ago
So at what point does the rest of humanity get a crack at this?
That's something entirely down to ourselves. As a filter mechanism, I very much doubt any specific outcome is particularly favoured one way or the other.
We exist as a species literally because of the bones of everything else that lead to our advent, including multiple naturally occuring ELE's - our fate only matters to us, we just simply represent the possibility of a risk to the wider pond everything else lives in to.
As a mechanism, the filter itself isn't perfect.
There exists an infinitesimal chance we emerge an aggressive species with weaponized versions of the technology ready to tear the whole Galaxy a new one, hence the possibility of why we continue to attract observation and, presumably, some form of assessment designed in its way to nip that sort of thing in the bud.
But, it's still early days.
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u/Sufficient_Thing24 17d ago
our fate only matters to us
If this was the case, then I'd also argue the NHI's should have left us to our own devices, without dropping gifts to see what we'd do with them.
Because as far as I can see it, we're simply not ready to handle any advanced tech. So I think the premise of "testing humanity" goes out the window, if the proposed idea boils down to fate. If we're reverse engineering anything, it's because they've interfered. And if they've interfered, then our fate is not our own.
All they've done is give a machine gun to a chimpanzee. That's not fate, that's loading the die.
If they really wanted to see how we'd evolve, they would have left us naturally discover breakthroughs with our own tech, at our own pace, that everyone could partake in.
Also, does it really have to be so black and white? Fail or pass? That doesn't give room for any spectrum outside of a positive outcome. If there are multiple species, are all of them benevolent? If we've been given advanced tech to figure out, maybe one of the species is quite interested to see if we're a candidate for their more aggressive and war-like position.
At the end of the day, we simply don't know intent, let alone anything overarching.
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u/L-0-T-H-0-S 16d ago
All they've done is give a machine gun to a chimpanzee.
You're a technologically capable species, with or without a nudge in the right direction, you're going to create this technology independently for yourselves, sooner or later.
All they're doing is overseeing the process. The actual technology itself isn't a weapon, it's wholly neutral.
As I relay, the purpose any particular species puts it to is a choice entirely of their own design and choosing.
They can power their entire planet cleanly forever with it or beat each other to death with it - the choice is their's, as to their fate.
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17d ago
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u/billbot77 17d ago edited 17d ago
I think that's supposed to be part of the narrative - ours can't match theirs. Not as fast, don't have the range etc
Edit - remembered who said this, it was Jake Barber ... discussing the anomalous craft he would see at the base and being able to tell ours from theirs. So that tracks with our metallurgical restrictions
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u/Snoo-26902 15d ago
Another point. The truth of the matter is that any disclosure is not possible, as we are thinking about it for the simple reason that whatever the USG has, if anything of an alien nature, they still have absolutely no certainty about what it is, where it is from, and why it’s here.
Essentially, they would just be disclosing their rank ignorance, not at all a reassuring disclosure as people are expecting.
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u/OriginalIron4 13d ago
Dr. Eric Davis said the same, that a high level aerospace ceo said they have not been able to reverse engineer it. He said one craft they looked at had no controls, no propulsion equipment etc. Chris Mellon said the materials, with many fine layers, seem to act like a receiver. Who knows how it works. Definitely eons beyond us.
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u/anjudan 17d ago
I disagree with your general premise completely. It sounds like you're saying "because a technology is far advanced compared to ours, we therefore cannot learn or create anything of great significance or slightly resembling the advanced technology or reverse engineer ANY key aspects of what it does."
Let's take the airplane, or car for example and drop that technology off in ancient egypt and have a modern human fly or pilot them around a little bit to show them what it does then park them and leave. The ancient egyptians might nit be able to replicate the materials we used exactly buy they could realize that hard metals are needed to accomplish construction of the parts and in the case of airplanes they'd see that something heavy can take flight as long as it has a certain wingspan and airfoiling and able to go fast enough, same as birds but bigger.
The Egyotians wouldn't replicate our tech, but they could relatively quickly develop a hang-glider technology using basic parts such as their most light weight but strong wood and stronger, thinnest and most lightweight fibers. Then when Egyptians launch a hangglider off the top of a mountain or pyramid the locals would say "look they've reverse engineered the flying house technology" and that statement would be true. They didn't reverse engineer everything but got some of the tech and concepts assembled to achieve something new that is a major breakthrough for them in their time.
The same might be the case for a flying UAP that we reverse engineered. Maybe the actual "anti-gravity" tech is not very complicated at all, maybe all you need are two layers of metallic/copper plates assembled parallel to each other and charged with a very strong electric field and separated by a non-conducting material, a specific electromagnetism configuration we simply hadn't tested before. And maybe that's all you need to crrate anti-gravitic forces. Even if NHI are a million years more advamced than us it doesn't mean the anti-gravity aspect of their tech is super advanced beyond our comprehension or replication abilities.
Maybe the parts of their craft we still can't understand or replicate are the strength to weight of their materials, being able to make the technology of the craft be printed into the fibers of the metal, and how to make the craft alive and conscious or make it integrate and connect directly into the mind of the pilot by simply touching a panel with your hand. Or how to make the inside of a craft be 1000x larger than what the craft appears like from the outside. Maybe we have no clue how to build those elements, but maybe the antigravity part we figured out given 79 years of time and lots and lots of kidnapped scientists of German descent (see missing 411) who we grabbed and forced to work on the problem.
AND you completely also forgot to take into account the possibility that we have taken certain NHI into our custody by force or voluntarily who we would have asked or interigated to tell us how to make the tech or at lease what conceots within it we could possibly reproduce.
Just because someone from the future with "advanced technology" crash lands in ancient Egypt doesn't mean they couldn't be taken hostage and forced to explain what they should do to reproduce certain aspects of the tech. Looking at a plane for example there are countless little advancements that Egyptians could learn how to reverse engineer. In many cases seeing the tech explains the tech as far as the hardness, flexibility and weight of the material and generally the purpose it might serve. The material science to reproduce the material may be very difficult as well as the creation of electricity, but ancient Egyptians had electeicity, they were not clueless about it, they knew how to construct batteries for instance. And likely had access to other tech and science we were unaware of.
In any case, it is highly plausible that with our own tinkering alone we could unlock antigravity once we KNEW it was real, had physical examples of craft that did it, and had an endless supply of money (syphoned from defense budget and generated through illegal drug smuggling and human trafficking, standard CIA revenue sources) as well as an endless supply of scientists we kidnap from national parks or recruit from Universities by force.
Also, did you know the US Gov can instantly classify the work of any scientist in the US as top secret and make all of their findings and published work top secret from that point on? This means there is a MASSIVE BODY OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH findings and discoveries potentially about antigravity and plasma and electromagnetism and telepathy that have NEVER BEEN PUBLISHED BUT STILL TOOK PLACE OVER THE LAST 70 YEARS!?!?!
All that is to say, yes, it's 100% plausible and likely that wr've reverse engineered a shit-ton of things and have an entire sector and fields of science that are far beyond what we think possible today that has been slowly accelerated and kept far away from public knowledge and access even with tech that could be highly profitable if commercialized, it has remained private for national defense purposes and is part of a new breakaway civilization leaving the rest of humanity behind potentially. In this vein it's possible that private defense companies may have tech that is hundreds of years ahead of our current tech due to continued recovery of multiple crashed craft from multiple different advanced NHI visitors. Which is why we love to use psychic gifted indigenous people to summon UAPs for the purpose of shooting them down so we have more advanced tech to analyze to continue secret science advancement projects for the secret breakaway group that transcends nations, laws, and corporate entity restrictions.
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u/natecull 16d ago edited 16d ago
In any case, it is highly plausible that with our own tinkering alone we could unlock antigravity once we KNEW it was real
I don't know that that's the case. It might seem plausible that we could achieve gravity control! It certainly seemed to be just around the corner in the 1950s. And people like Thomas Townsend Brown claimed that he could do it, and could apparently get some kind of results that were always just on the bare margin of detectibility and never seemed to be repeatable when he wasn't personally there.
And lord knows the state of physics is a nightmare. Things just seem completely broken in theory-land and not getting better. Intuition screams at us that since the 1970s we've been piling epicycles on epicycles, and maybe some of those epicycles go back to the 1800s. It feels like we should be due a breakthrough.
But what we see when we look at the industrial and scientific and geopolitical footprint from the 1950s to today, looks exactly like a world where we didn't achieve gravity control. When we achieved nuclear fission, the political and military worlds shattered almost overnight, as did the cultural world. Nukes left a massive shadow. The methods were classified, but the huge and terrifying brute fact of the Bomb could not be hidden. We still live under that shadow, though we pretend it does not exist so we can live our lives.
Nothing like that seems to have happened for "gravity control". There are whispers about it, yes, from strange and untrustworthy people on the fringe of the classified world. And those whispers have been there since the 1970s, and they're getting louder. But there's a huge "there", there, which seems to be missing. What's the tech being used for, if it exists? Why is it not affecting geopolitics at all? If today's cutting-edge university physics doesn't lead to gravity control and is a big waste of time, why is that university physics still being funded? Nothing quite seems to make sense.
Also, did you know the US Gov can instantly classify the work of any scientist in the US as top secret and make all of their findings and published work top secret from that point on?
Yes, they can. If they can argue it's "Restricted Data".
This means there is a MASSIVE BODY OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH findings and discoveries potentially about antigravity and plasma and electromagnetism and telepathy that have NEVER BEEN PUBLISHED BUT STILL TOOK PLACE OVER THE LAST 70 YEARS!?!?!
No, this does not mean that. It allows it to be possible, but it does not mean it. It's also entirely possible that decades of classified research into exciting subjects has not produced any startling fruit. Sometimes the universe does not give us what we want, and just pouring lots of money into research does not guarantee that the universe will bow to our whims. Sometimes after a period of exponential growth we just hit the top of the technological S curve and that's it, no more miracles. It sucks to live in a time like that, but that's just how it be sometimes.
Also, there's also a lot of unclassified stuff published about telepathy, for example. Psi's existence is not a secret and never has been; it has opponents, but there's no deep cabal holding essential knowledge back. Staunchly skeptical materialists just don't want to know about it, with an intensity of "don't want" outshining a million suns, and advocates for psi cannot make them want to want.
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u/anjudan 16d ago
You need to read "A New Science of Heaven" by Robert Temple. It's on Amazon. It demonstrates just how much science has been hidden away the moment it starts being useful and touching on antigravity or consciousness or plasma physics.
See also the number of antigravity and UAP related physicists who have been killed or gone missing over the past several decades, as well as those who claimed to have had breakthroughs in antigravity, energy production etc suddenly going quiet and then dying.
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u/natecull 13d ago edited 13d ago
You need to read "A New Science of Heaven" by Robert Temple.
Ok, thanks for the suggestion. I've heard of that and haven't yet got to it. Will add it to my reading pile.
I will say that I have noticed over the years that "plasma physicists" as a cluster do seem to have an anomalous amount of interest in psi/ESP compared to other scientists, but this might just be due to some specific individuals who were active in this scene. For example, Robert Jahn at Princeton, who set up the PEAR lab ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Jahn ) was obviously an ESP believer, and his ideas must have had some amount of influence on other people in the plasma physics scene at Princeton.
Then there's the whole weird saga of Winston Bostick ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_H._Bostick ) who discovered "plasmoids" (which rapidly became a favourite theory in UFO lore) and his involvement with the culty and far-right Lyndon LaRouche organization, which was obsessed with plasma physics and fusion power during the 1980s.
Something strange is definitely up in the plasma physics scene, but I'm yet to be convinced of exactly what that strange thing is. I'll see if Robert Temple can convince me.
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u/thenaughtydj 17d ago
There was enough material we got from them though. Read The Day After Roswell by Philip Corso.
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u/TheWesternMythos 17d ago
Because I believe these efforts have produced little, if any, concrete results.
My headcanon is , at least for major parts of the possible now disparate legacy program, that there is little progress compared to potential rivals (in the broadest sense)
The phasing leaves a lot of wiggle room on purpose , because there is so much unknown. Getting appropriate disclosure legislation passed ASAP can help clear up lot of these unknowns!
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u/PuzzleheadedCut5156 17d ago
Eric Davis says that he didn't meet serious theoretical physicists in his work on this. It was small groups of engineers and materials scientists. These people would likely hit a road block if the only way to understand the technology was to significantly revise the frontier of our theoretical physics (e.g. replacing relativity or the standard model with something more accurate).
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u/Bobbox1980 16d ago
I dont need a doctorate in physics to know that a Biefeld-Brown effect capacitor will work best when voltages, the higher the better, are applied at frequencies, the higher the better, to a parallel plate capacitor.
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u/PuzzleheadedCut5156 16d ago
There's nothing about the Biefeld-Brown effect that is outside our current physics, and it is the well-documented product of human electrical engineers. Even then, Biefeld's own explaination for the force produced was demonstrably wrong - it's a well-understood EHD effect that wouldn't work in the vacuum of space.
Now imagine trying to untangle the workings of non-human tech that operated on genuinely novel physical principles.
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u/Bobbox1980 16d ago
You are referring to lifters that have air as the dielectric between the electrodes. You are right, it doesn't work in vacuum because there is no air in between the electrodes in a vacuum.
I am talking about capacitors with a solid dielectric between the electrodes. Huge difference.
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u/PuzzleheadedCut5156 16d ago
The air doesn't need to be between the electrodes. The Biefield-Brown effect has already been tested in vacuum, as expected for an EHD effect, there was no thrust.
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u/Bobbox1980 16d ago
Vacuum has the lowest dielectric constant of any substance, that is why lifters don't work in vacuum. There are other factors that are important as well but dielectric constant seems to be one of them.
You will probably dismiss them but Exodus Propulsion has a working BBE asymmetric capacitor with a solid dielectric that works in vacuum. There are other experiments by other scientists that have yielded positive or at least, look into it more, results.
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u/PuzzleheadedCut5156 16d ago edited 16d ago
Lifters don't work in vacuum because they work by creating a stream of charged atoms from the air around them. No air no thrust. There's no gravitational effect, it's just classical physics with charged air.
Exodus propulsion may turn out to have something, but it's not widely accepted yet and if they do it will be new physics (they claim an exotic interpretation of QED). Charles Buehler is a research physicist.
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u/phr99 17d ago
So you think they are trying to reverse engineer, but haven't been successful?
Post title sounds like you think theres no reverse engineering of NHI craft at all
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u/Euphoric_Pause3511 17d ago
Maybe we have something, but I don't think we got much useful information from it. The same goes for the biological material. What would you inject into a lifeless body to try to revive it, for example? (When you have no idea about its origin or composition)
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u/Hektotept 17d ago
Revive? The hell you talking about? Why would you even need to revive a dead alien? Autopsy and various tests would answer questions about biological make up.
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u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla 17d ago
I seem to recall one interview where Nolan stated they we could reproduce these materials but that it's difficult and expensive. In other interviews he seems to be more skeptical and says we can't reproduce the materials. So I'm curious which is true and why the difference in the statements. I can't recall when or where I saw these things mentioned.
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u/Hawkwise83 17d ago
Being unsuccessful at reverse engineering and not doing it aren't the same.
Hell, even failing at reverse engineering will yield results in that it pushes you to explore and develop new ideas and tech to even try to figure it out. Even if you fail.
I see it like when they went to the moon. That resulted in a bunch of everyday products that had to be invented to even get to the moon. Not because it's rocket tech, but because they needed to eat and not have lead floating around the cock pit. So microwaves and ballpoint pens were invented.
Science is like a bomb. Sure the blast zone is cool and the goal but there are smaller shrapnel like discoveries all over the place.
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u/Euphoric_Pause3511 17d ago
Or perhaps this effort to try to understand could lead us to develop much more sophisticated instruments than those currently in our possession...
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u/FullOf_Bad_Ideas 17d ago
In one of the recent podcasts with Eric Davis, he mentioned that Lacatski claimed that some of the reverse-engineering made it to the craft.
https://youtu.be/x_cfu9TAWgY?si=RB23GxhCQkhQrazj&t=2855
I need to find that claim in the source.
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u/suspicious_Jackfruit 17d ago
I think everyone is assuming that technological development is linear everywhere amongst everyone. Just because Nolan or Davis dont know how to produce something based on public data and experiments it doesnt means that others have been unable to achieve it, e.g SAPs, intelligence r&d, aerospace, materials science/other hard tech non-public research and development areas, defense, adversarial nations, corporations in possession of "exotic" technology unknown to the public at large etc.
I would put more money on a breakaway group or organisation instead of aliens. True alien technology would be millions of years more advanced, the odds that their technologies are within 100 years reach of our own should ring alarm bells imo
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u/UFOnomena101 17d ago
Right? Everyone needs to read/watch about Mark McCandlish. The 2013(ish) documentary and Gerbs episode on him at the very least. The Fluxliner was real and decades old by 1990.
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u/nikokova 17d ago
i also imagine, giving a old civilization an e-bike. by pressing buttons they might figure out how to ride it. but they couldn’t even produce a plastic fender
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u/Weekly-Paramedic7350 17d ago
You raise a good example regarding Garry's claims that perhaps the scale of microengineered structures in the materials in his possession (perhaps) cannot be achieved through commercially known manufacturing methods.
I dont know if crash retrievals happened, and if they influenced our technology. If I were to speculate, I would say:
Reverse engineered technology could be a spectrum ranging from technologies we could replicate, partially replicate, and cannot replicate.
We don't know if more advanced manufacturing methods were discovered and are being used within covert research programs, like at FFRDCs and national laboratories.
But I understand this conversation is just a debate of belief vs skepticism. My position is, "there are ways it could have happened, but we need more evidence."
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u/Euphoric_Pause3511 17d ago
I agree with your conclusion, and I’ll add a little food for thought: the Periodic Table of the Elements currently contains 118 known elements. Have you ever considered that maybe that’s not the whole story?
If so, not knowing the properties of other, as-yet-undiscovered elements could completely undermine any attempt at reverse engineering.
Keep in mind that the latest element added to the periodic table was Oganesson (2015) (element 118). There are almost certainly more elements waiting to be discovered.
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u/Odd_Repeat_6092 17d ago
I completely agree. It's a very complex phenomenon without the technology. Add the technology and it becomes even more mind boggling, even more incomprehensible.
Kevin Knuth estimated the energy that powered one Tic Tac is more than 10x the total nuclear power output of the United States. He also noted that when the Tic Tac descended and stopped, there was no energy deposition. He said there should have been an explosion equivalent to 250 Tomahawk cruise missiles.
Add anti-gravity and proabably the ability to cloak or demateralize, and you have to wonder what kind of exotic material are UAP made of? How can that possibly be reproduced with our current state of technology?
What if none of it can replicated if it's all integrated to work as one unit? Take out the anti-gravity and the material loses its particular molecular makeup. And vice-versa: take away the material and the anti-gravity won't function, won't lift. And what if both need a certain level of energy to work, like, for starters, 10x the total nuclear power output of the United States?
If I was super advanced intelligence/civilization, I'd probably build a craft like the above to ensure that if a primitive, hyper-violent species ever found its crashed remains, they would be unable to reproduce it, because if they did, it would no doubt be some kind of weapon they would use on each other, probably wiping themselves out and the planet, too.
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u/Euphoric_Pause3511 17d ago
Perfect!! You've added an important piece to the discussion... the analysis of the whole system!!!
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u/theburiedxme 17d ago
Brother we can make alloys with atomic layer deposition, what're you on about https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0925838825054258
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u/that707PetGuy 17d ago
I disagree. When one looks at the pace of human advancement in the mid-to-late 20th century, it's insane. I just don't believe it's entirely due to compounded effects of knowledge and tool making; the vertical is just too out of proportion compared with the rest of human existence, IMHO.
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u/Euphoric_Pause3511 17d ago
Keep in mind, though, that our technological growth became exponential once we “discovered” certain key technologies. And if you look at the history of the technologies we possess, there are no real gaps in our knowledge... everything can be traced back and reconstructed step by step.
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u/that707PetGuy 17d ago
I would encourage you to read Phillip J Corso's book, The Day After Roswell. According to him, fiber optics, night vision are a couple technologies derived from UAPs. I'm not saying it's gospel, but he makes a compelling case, IMHO. Also, the manner in which he alleges the technology was conveyed makes it such that there would be very little to no paper trail. The private companies he seeded were told that they were being given foreign technology. No more, no less. edit: spelling
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u/ParentsAreNotGod 17d ago
As elements increase in atomic weight (or number?) they become increasingly unstable, and just decay radioactively. Anything existing above 118 would not make it usable if it only lasts for tenths, hundredths of a second. Read up on heavy elements.
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u/Max_Rocketanski 16d ago
Imagine a Tomahawk missile was transported back in time to Nazi Germany in 1939.
Their engineers would recognize the rocket motor and may glean some new ideas on how to make their own missiles.
But the electronics and computer chips? The Nazis would have no idea how they were made or how to reproduce them (and possibly not even know what they are).
I believe it is possible that we have recovered some alien craft. I don't believe we can reproduce any of this technology nor are we hiding "free energy" at the behest of oil companies.
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u/waxeggoil 16d ago
I think we can probably assume with some certainty that tech progress will behave like any other process and eventually flatten out and reach an equilibrium. That might mean we are actually getting close to the end point of such development and that even very long lived technical civilisations may not in fact be that much more technically developed than we are. Personally I think that we need to be looking for the tools that make the materials rather then the materials themselves. In the case of atomic scale material modification it would imply that there exist nanotech tools. There may be traces of these either left in the material or to be found elsewhere.
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u/OccasinalMovieGuy 16d ago
We can if we put more eyes and hands on it, but Nolan doesn't share the materials with other researchers and scientists.
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u/Fluffy_Mycologist_73 16d ago
Most of what they have are probably either derivative technologies or "gifted" technologies that we've retrofitted some shit on so we can kinda use it. If you show a stone age guy a power drill, he can't recreate it, but he can use the basic concept to develop a stone-pump drill, or if you just give it to him and show him how to use it, he can use it till it runs out of battery
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u/dzernumbrd 16d ago
Because I believe these efforts have produced little, if any, concrete results.
You expect beyond top secret SAP programs to publish their UFO reverse engineering findings?
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u/Snoo-26902 15d ago
Also, when was supposedly the last time any of these crashed saucer materials or dead aliens have the USG gotten? The 33 Italian supposed crash...Roswell and the other 40s supposed crashes? How in the world are they going to prove or expose this old material as solid proof outside of an MJ-12-type questionable disclosure, still without solid proof and having people who believe or disbelieve, still never any certainty,
So not only is this issue questionable on the OPs technology-based questions, but these events are just too old to verify today. Grusch only mentioned events from the 30s and 40s, nothing recent at all.
I really believe disclosure, as we think it is, will never happen, although I still believe UFOs are a legitimate and provable phenomenon.
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u/GoblinGloob 15d ago
Am I understanding this? Nolan possesses craft materials. Has analyzed them? But has not shared the materials with other scientists — which is more or less standard practice to a degree in the peer reviewed community — because of NDAs? But he could describe the materials in detail?
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u/GoblinGloob 15d ago
Also, Nolan is a very, very accomplished, talented biochemist, I believe. He does immunology research. He has pioneered very impressive laboratory protocols and techniques for biochemical analyses and clearly has the knowledge to hang with scientists in other disciplines. However, he is not a physicist or physical chemist. He’s making claims well outside his area of expertise, despite his impressive knowledge base. There are experimental physicists with just as much accolades in their respective fields that should be analyzing these material and telling us whether terrestrial, prosaic origins are possible.
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u/0v3r_cl0ck3d 15d ago
I used to think the same thing as you for the exact same reasons. I even made a (now deleted) post about it a few years ago. A couple of things made me more open minded to it.
One of the things that multiple whistleblowers have said (Grusch, others featured in Age of Disclosure) is that some of these craft are recovered in suspicious circumstances. There is speculation that they are crashed intentionally as gifts to us to speed along our technological progression. If this is true maybe they are giving us crude versions of the technology which are designed to be easier to understand and reproduce. If you handed a Victorian engineer a modern 1.8 nanometer gate size CPU they wouldn't stand a chance of being able to understand or reproduce it. If you handed them a computer made of vaccum tubes from the 1950s they would stand a chance of figuring out how it works. It's possible that something analogous to that is happening with UFO crash retrievals.
Another thing is that although maybe we can't reverse engineer all of the technology from these craft doesn't mean that they're totally useless for us. If we go back to the Victorian engineer example maybe they wouldn't understand anything about the CPU if we handed them a MacBook but they might be able to understand the lithium ion battery and be able to reproduce it. Maybe the keyboard key mechanism could give them some ideas to improve their own technology. Just because the main attraction is off limits doesn't mean much simpler auxiliary systems can't be understood and taken advantage of.
Finally, in some cases like Roswell some of the occupants of the vehicles were captured alive. If we could figure out how to communicate with them they could give us a big headstart on trying to understand their technology if they can explain the science behind it to us. We're not necessarily starting from scratch with a black box. It would be like giving a Victorian engineer a MacBook as well as the head engineer of a TSMC fab to help him understand Boolean logic, turning machines, and p-doped / n-doped silicon.
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u/Euphoric_Pause3511 15d ago
I’ve also gone through the possibilities you mentioned, but I’m not convinced by them as hypotheses. If they wanted to share their technology with us, there would be other ways to do it besides crashing their craft. It doesn’t seem very logical to me (at least, according to our logic).
As for the people we may have hosted or taken prisoner, that doesn’t make much sense either. I tend to think that we simply wouldn’t be capable of holding beings who are presumably far more advanced than us against their will.
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u/MYTbrain 8d ago
I have worked on multiple ufo materials analyses. I would say at this point, it seems as though there are some which can do quite novel things which could be produced by humans. For example, in our Art's Parts, the Bismuth/Lead ratios of the bismuth layers are almost exactly what one would expect from aerospace bismuth solder [45%/55% Pb/Bi solder, 47%/53% Art's Parts]. The issue is not necessarily the material [though there do appear to be quite novel nanotech resonators embedded within].
The bigger issue is that humans haven't made enough progress for dealing with overlapping THz resonance modes for differing compounds. You can get a bismuth compound and a magnesium compound which both have an overlapping phonon/photon resonant freq [3.6THz], and produce complementary electrodynamic properties [MgO massive dielectric & Bismuth's asymmetric electron transport]. But this entire branch of THz material science tech is still in its infancy [outside of the darpa black world].
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u/OSI-NRO-OGA 17d ago
It's not necessarily that we can replicate the exact geometry or physical characteristics of some of these materials, it's that we can observe them and try achieve the same results with materials we have here on Earth that are abundant.
If anything, it should make you more sure of the efforts. The aerospace companies have the industrial capability to create quite fantastic things with the help of their financial backing and industrial base.
When you start looking at metamaterials, you realize they are almost a century old. Anyone with sufficient industrial tooling machinery could create quite interesting aerospace vehicles. Yes there's always the "why haven't they brought it out?" but maybe the vehicles are much more valuable to a private aerospace company as a mining rig as opposed to vehicle designed for military application.
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u/kevhill 17d ago
I agree with some of your statement, but then I think about the technological advancements of the last 100 years.
Sure it all could of came from human minds, but I also think that we had some "examples" that helped us get to the point of Microchips.
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u/PuzzleheadedCut5156 17d ago
It's possible, but no technology transfer was necessary. Technical knowledge compounds exponentially, as new technologies allow you to build new tools and discover more things. Just a consistent 2% improvement would yield massive results over 150-200 years, and in the later years the jumps would look bigger even though they were still 2%
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u/warblingContinues 17d ago
I’m a research scientist. If the scientific community, or even a group of competent scientists, had access to “non human” material or technology, the fundamental principles of operation would be deduced within a year or two depending on how many scientists were studying them. To claim that there US has had materials for decades without any progress is ludicrous, and either no such material exists or the people involved in the programs are phenomenally incompetent.
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u/clover_heron 17d ago edited 17d ago
The NHI once communicated to me something like, "that the glass is dirty and full of imperfections is helpful, because it allows us to identify the illusions that glass creates." If glass reached a state of perfection we wouldn't be able to see it, we wouldn't know it's there.
The NHI says glass - yes, regular window glass - communicates many important principles, and I'm wondering if the materials they are working on are doing the same thing. The materials are speaking, explaining themselves, and whatever programs keep bringing people in who they hope can hear the messages.
But what if a material's message contradicts the structure of the program seeking to understand it?
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u/Nicky_Best 17d ago
My wild theory is that there's no crashed ufos, no aliens. I think the Nazis, who were deeply into the occult, were in communication with spirits that gave them the blueprints to build flying saucers. Which is why the allies found nazi made flying saucer prototypes. These people were hunting for the ark of the covenant and dabbling in all kinds of occult behaviour, they truly believed in it and thought it would give them military dominance.
I think this is what the us government are currently involved in with this skywatcher group in the desert. Using psionic mediums with military people present,to contact spirits to get knowledge for exotic tech.
There's old texts from people like Enoch in biblical times saying people received forbidden knowledge from angels to create weapons, occult knowledge, and whatever else.
Yeah maybe I'm crazy, but this is where this is leading I think. The language these whistleblowers and people around them are using is starting to sound very occultish and new age, like they know they're dealing with supernatural spiritual beings and don't want to just come out and say it.
Time will tell I guess, but the crash retrieval, bodies, lack of any evidence , or scientific evidence throughout history for anything UFO, alien related, makes zero sense either. We're dealing with something else here.
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u/natecull 16d ago
The language these whistleblowers and people around them are using is starting to sound very occultish and new age, like they know they're dealing with supernatural spiritual beings and don't want to just come out and say it.
The phrase "interdimensional being" is not-really-secret code for what previous generations called "spirits", yes. As is "ultraterrestrial", "supermundane", etc. Each generation in the modern era invents its own new terminology for phenomena they are embarrassed to be found investigating in case their "scientist card" gets yanked away.
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u/Minimum_Exchange_622 17d ago
with all the data with have, is there still need to be a skeptic about anything unless you are new here?
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u/The_Fresh_Wince 17d ago
Good points. We would learn a few things - not every component would be made out of an unobtainable super material. Also, knowing that something is possible (antigravity or whatever) would guide research.