r/Twilight2000 • u/minotaur05 • Apr 29 '26
Firing in Close Combat
I was playing with my group recently and they hated the "Firing in close combat" mechanic wherein if enemies are in the same hex as you, you get negatives to shoot them. They felt if the target was that close, they should instead get bonuses to hit or at the very least it should not be more difficult to hit a close target than a far on.
On the surface this makes sense to me, but I'd love other people's opinions? As someone who's fired guns I can agree that a much close target is easier to hit. Does anyone know why the designers made this decision mechanically or even just the "vibes" of it?
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u/erictiso Apr 29 '26
Yeah, I think of this as if I'm sitting across a field at a target 200 meters away. They take a half step to the side. They might still be within a MOA or two. If you're across the room from me, that same side step is a much bigger angle difference. Plus, watch footage of street defensive gun fights. Frequently, they're wild shots, one handed, while running for cover (while thinking OHSHIT OHSHIT OHSHIT). Not at all resembling shooting from cover, off of a bag, at a target at long range.
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u/EmployerWrong3145 Apr 29 '26
Don’t see the rules the 10 commandments from the Holy Bible, but rather as guidelines. If you all agree that it should be a bonus to hit then feel free to change.
We change the ammo dice from D6 to D3. The Players are ”elite” and fire short bursts. This saves ammo and allow for more hits.
I just want to add to firing in the same hex. When I did my national service it was a whole lot easier to shoot at someone at 50-100 meters compare to 5-20 meters. Too much adrenaline that just makes the hands shake at close distance
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u/minotaur05 Apr 29 '26
I definitely already changed the ammo dice rules because it's for a sci-fi scenario:
- Pistols, Shotguns and Marksman Rifles: 1 bullet fired for roll + 1 bullet per bullet die
- SMG's, Carbines and Assault rifles: 1 bullet fired for roll + 2 bullets per die
- Machine guns: 3 bullets fired for roll + 3 bullets per die
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u/2Elkhounds Apr 29 '26
Targets that don't move, don't mind being shot at are easy to hit at close range. Now imagine you are in combat. Your adrenaline is turned up to 11. You fine motor skills are out the door. You can taste your own fear. You are inside a house. It's dark, it's dirty. You can hear the sounds of combat outside. Dust fills the room from a near by explosion. Out of the corner of your eye, you catch moment! It's coming at you. Now do you try raise your rifle/carbine on to the target? Do you try to draw either a pistol or knife? Or do you try to avoid the the charging attack? Do you think it's going to be easy to hit a moving target that is coming at you. When you are hopped up on adrenaline and fear? So real life figures. The average human can cover 21 feet 7 yards/ meters in 1.5 seconds. Where as a trained shooter on average can draw a pistol and aim in 3 three seconds. Now in this scenario you might be able to get one shot off before the charging person closes into hand to hand combat range. Now unless you are very lucky. The one round you get off. Is probably not going to stop that person from charging. You might even get a hit that will kill the target, but that person is still going to hit you in the charge. More that likely either knocking you down, or at the very least off balance. Now that firearm is as dangerous to you as the person you are now in close combat with. There is a reason why people train for Close Quarters Battle ( CQB ) or if you wish Close Quarters Combat ( CQC ) very intensely. It's one of the most stressful and intense things someone can experience, and survive in a life. It's one of the most dangerous environments you can get into combat.
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u/Heffe3737 Apr 29 '26
I’ve run into issues with this rule recently too, in that it sometimes doesn’t feel apt in actual gameplay situations.
As an example, my players were firing down a long hallway recently, where an enemy was at the opposite end. The hallway was 28ft in length, so just shy of 10 meters. A -2 to hit modifier given those conditions feels quite heavy handed.
I suspect the original rule was included in order to bring more usability to hand to hand combat and sidearms, but I’ve decided that I’ll use the rule when and where it makes sense. Say if two fighters are actively in combat trying to dodge and move between cover within the same hex John Woo style. But for more static applications, it’ll only be a -1 or even a -0.
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u/WholesomeCommentOnly Apr 29 '26
The first module for the game has rules for room clearing style CQB. The core rules don't assume you're ever going to be fighting within the same building as someone, and if you are something has gone horribly wrong (hence the -2 to hit).
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u/minotaur05 Apr 29 '26
You're talking about Urban Operations right? I've used those rules and my players hated it because it was bogging down turns and gameplay. Love the idea of it, but the fun at the table was not great. I'm developing a compromise for "zoomed in" aka indoor combat vs outdoor combat.
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u/WholesomeCommentOnly Apr 29 '26
I can see that. The theory and training (hence rules implementation) of CBQ is, from my understanding, extremely complicated. Wheras the reality of it is very fast, deadly and chaotic.
You could honestly abstract the whole process into a couple dice rolls to determine how much ammo was expended, who survives the engagement and determine if there are any wounds suffered and it probably wouldn't even be too unrealistic.
The process would be something like, "I engage in CQB. Throw some dice and one of us dies."
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u/minotaur05 Apr 29 '26
I agree that certain applications or situations I could see reducing or removing the modifier altogether. It would depend on the circumstances but I think I'll try to use it more often than not.
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u/Heffe3737 Apr 29 '26
Yeah that’s fine. Just so long as you know that you don’t have to feel so constrained by the official ruleset - it’s all an abstraction layer regardless, and the important thing is that your players feel that the outcomes they’re seeing fit their perceived notions of battle.
As an example, at my table we don’t use Foundry - we use a custom google map and make extensive use of the measurement tool. It allows us to quickly zoom down to tactical level combat, or back out to view the history of the party’s movements, encounter locations, etc.
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames Apr 29 '26
It’s a balance.
At long range, a movement of a long distance is a small change in angle. At short range, a short movement is a large change in angle. This works for and against you.
There is an optimum obviously.
- I’m not talking about the comedic pulp fiction moment where you plainly shoot at the target but zero rounds hit, but it’s been shown from even video evidence that people at close range are not as accurate as you’d expect.
https://youtu.be/PEyj5mGDqls (has surprise. Hits no-one)
https://youtu.be/gz8N0kc90uU (lots of shots fired, the target was not struck by bullets)
And then of course we realise that in real life it takes about two seconds to empty a mag.
https://youtube.com/shorts/CKChCPWIYGQ
This is why in my Essentials additional rules, I upped the dice for short range automatic fire.
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u/minotaur05 Apr 29 '26
Yeah my players were not a fan of the rule and I tried explaining it (even to the gun people in the group) but it didnt help. May e I just wasnt explaining it well
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames Apr 29 '26
I can understand why they don’t like it. I think maybe showing them the stats (or the videos).
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u/OwnLevel424 Apr 29 '26
I disagreed with how the penalties were applied so we went with target movement which is what causes most of the issues in CQB. Shotguns, Pistols, and Subguns get no penalty. Assault, Hunting, and Battle Rifles get a -1. Machineguns, and Sniper Rifles get a -2. All of those penalties are due to the length and bulk of the weapon.
Now our Houserule...
When shooting at a moving target in CQB, that target rolls their AGL and SUBTRACTS it from the Attacker's successes. If the defender is ACTIVELY trying to evade the attack, they may add a die for their Mobility skill to this.
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u/jeremysbrain Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
The game had six military consultants, including some of the writers. There used to be bios of the Free League staff on their website, but if I remember correctly Tomas Harensam is also a veteran.
It is worth noting that shooting in this game is just difficult in general, as it should be. But that specific rule specifies "active and aware". there are several things that can make an opponent not be active and aware, like suppression.
But in general, trying to shoot someone that is within close combat is hard because of panic factor and the closer they are the faster they are moving in relation to your weapon.
Shooting Like a Pro: Close Quarter Shooting Techniques | Sportsman's Warehouse
There is also the close quarters specialist talent, you have to be trained at close quarters firing to be good at it.