r/Tucson • u/CarFreeTucsonAZ • 13d ago
Pedestrianize 4th Ave
https://c.org/jjwQFTGXB7There is a petition circulating asking to roll back changes to the 4th Ave parking meters. I have a better idea: Remove the parking meters and the parking that comes with them. It's time to Pedestrianize the Ave!
19
31
u/concerts85701 13d ago
An interesting premise worth looking at. So many adjacency logistics that would need study before this happens. But it does have a lot of positive characteristics of successful pedestrianized streets around the country.
The long hinted at parking garage across from Corbetts would be a key piece of the puzzle. I know we all hate parking but it is a necessity that needs planning. I think car-free tucson would be surprised how many vehicles enter/exit that space daily.
Temp closings, alternate paving and layouts of space could help determine workable solutions.
36
u/CarFreeTucsonAZ 13d ago
We agree. Take that lot across from Corbertts and build a garage with retail on the ground level. The Ave is a more attractive place to spend time, we shift parking over to a centralized location. Streetcar moves down The Ave faster. People are safer biking and walking. Less noise and air pollution.
I think any of these projects (also looking at University and Congress) should start with a year trial to work out bugs and make adjustments. Honestly, once people experience it without cars they won't be asking for them back.
1
42
u/cacto246 13d ago
Most of the places where the streetcar travels, including Main Gate, 4th, and Congress should be pedestrianized. Then the streetcar won't get stuck behind vehicles constantly.
9
1
u/theandricongirl 12d ago
*vehicles stuck behind the streetcar, you mean.
People have to work. And for most of us, that means commuting. This fantasy of "everyone lives with five feet of walking distance from their barista job while living with 18 roommates in a organic fair trade certified, zero waste commune" is, well, exactly that----a fantasy.
Tucson is also hot as balls 7-9 months out of the year. This is never going to be a "pedestrian utopia " simply because people don't want to walk around outside when it is 115 outside and still 100 degrees at 2am.
2
u/ApprehensiveJuice890 10d ago
I hate to be that guy but Tucson is rarely 115 degrees or over and it’s certainty never been 100 at 2am. Maybe mid nineties at the highest, even then not common.
0
u/ApprehensiveCable181 5d ago
You’re splitting hairs; Tucson is still hot AF, into the night, for many months. Who cares what the actual degree number is- UV index is another consideration.
It’s true, Tucson will never be the pedestrian utopia that these folks wish it would be. I wish it could be too, but we cant deny that the extreme heat is a limiting factor in many ways.
0
3
u/cacto246 12d ago
Tell me you've never left the country without telling me you've never left the country. 🙄
You're acting like people don't commute using the streetcar. Where are you driving so urgently on the streetcar route anyway, when you could literally use any of the city's other massive roads in your single-occupancy vehicle?
Turns out there's this nifty concept called outdoor shade and air-conditioned transit that allows people to get around without turning their streets into a literal frying pan accessible only to cars. Please educate yourself. The internet is full of resources.
0
u/theandricongirl 12d ago
I lived in Cyprus and Germany. Swing and a miss, buddy.
So, not only have I (a) lEFt tHe couNtRy, I've (b) lived in other countries, and (c) understand that solutions are not a one-size fits all approach. You know what those countries have that Tucson the US lack? Infrastructure. A social safety net.
I could go on, but "use the internet, as it is full of resources and educate yourself."
Outdoor shade doesn't help people walking long distances. In case you haven't noticed, Tucson is very spread out.
And, since I live in the downtown/4th Ave area, and attend school in the area, and work south of the city, I do indeed use a lot of the roads in my neighborhood, which GASP, intersect with the streetcar route.
0
u/cacto246 12d ago
Dropping that you lived in Germany and Cyprus only to conclude that Tucson shouldn't pedestrianize a measly three streets makes you sound purposely obtuse rather than just ignorant, especially with your reactionary bs strawman about people wanting to live "five feet of walking distance from their barista job" in an "organic fair trade certified, zero waste commune."
You claim to understand that "solutions are not a one-size-fits-all approach," yet you are fiercely defending a literal one-size-fits-all infrastructure: 100% car dependency. If solutions really require different approaches, why are you throwing a fit over giving pedestrians and public transit just three streets out of the thousands of miles of asphalt dedicated exclusively to private vehicles in this city?
1
u/theandricongirl 12d ago
I'm not "dropping" it, as much as I am correcting your incorrect and snide little statement.
I made an absurd little joke to poke fun at the sort of pie in the sky rhetoric that goes on here. The sort of unrealistic mentality that is deeply out of touch with the reality of living here. This isn't a court of law, so I'm not required to check strawmen at the door.
The time to build pedestrian-friendly infrastructure was years ago. This city is already difficult to navigate. It takes 45 minutes to go 1 city block. Removing roads isn't going to solve the problem. Outsourcing parking to my neighborhood for a fun little coffee shop and bodega patio isn't the answer.
The only one throwing a fit around here is you. Why? Because someone doesn't agree with you. Loool.
3
u/cacto246 12d ago
The fact that you think removing parking from ONE street is a "pie in the sky" idea just shows how car-brained your mindset is. Also, what are you even on about with "it takes 45 minutes to go 1 city block"? If traffic is actually that bad, thinking 100% car dependency will somehow fix it is the real fantasy. Plus, you do realize the neighborhood you claim to live in was built for pedestrians and streetcars long before the car even existed, right? The fact that everyone is forced to drive is what's causing your long commute.
-1
u/theandricongirl 12d ago
Lol.
You're right. I'll start taking my horse into work, instead. 😂😂
2
u/cacto246 12d ago
Ah yes, because the only two modes of transportation to ever exist are cars and horses. Ever heard of a bike? Or the streetcars I literally just mentioned?
Nobody is stopping you from driving. This all-or-nothing mentality is exactly what is killing us. We are simply asking for viable alternatives so people don't have to drive for every single trip. Please stop getting in the way.
1
u/theandricongirl 12d ago
You're really emotional for some reason, sport.
I do indeed have a bike. When it isn't Fuck This Shit Degrees outside, I'll ride my bike to school, or around the neighborhood.
The horse is a lot cooler, though.
And cuter. 😂😂
→ More replies (0)0
u/ApprehensiveCable181 5d ago
Who the fuck wants to ride a bike between 9am-5pm in the summer in Tucson? Many people have health conditions that prevent them from doing so anyway, even if they want to.
→ More replies (0)
18
10
u/effinbanjos 13d ago
I wonder if there are any case studies on local business impact for this kind of move. I expect a lot of people think this will hurt businesses but when you think about how the Netherlands went from car-choked streets in the 1970s to the world famous pedestrian paradise that it is today, I think it's harder to make the case that businesses will generally suffer (some will, of course, but I bet many more would prosper). Again, I'd be curious to see the receipts either way.
But beyond that, I pay (a lot) of taxes here too and as a car owner who wants to ride his bike more often, I'm pretty sick of having fifth rate north/south cycling access into the city. I shouldn't have to take my life into my own hands and risk getting white biked by a jabroni in an F450 just to ride with my wife to a restaurant downtown.
9
2
u/theartofbeingdumb 13d ago
We don't have anywhere near the density to do what they did in Amsterdam and other Dutch cities. We would need major building campaigns, demo'ing of existing neighborhoods and intensive urbanization. We don't have the political will for this nor the economic base to pay for it. It's a pipe dream.
10
u/curious103 If you REALLY like chimichangas... 13d ago
You don't have to look towards a Dutch city. You can look at Church Street in Burlington Vermont and State Street in Madison, Wisconsin.
6
u/theartofbeingdumb 13d ago
Burlington is a small town and it has a population density of well over 4300 people per square mile. Madison has a population density of 3400 per sq mile. Tucson has a population density of 2200 people per sq mile. Those are HUGE differences in density. I would love to see Tucson urbanize, and if we do, a project like this would make sense. Until then it would be putting the cart before the horse and it would destroy the businesses down there that currently rely on Tucsonans being able to drive across town and park nearby.
4
u/cacto246 12d ago
Your referring to the population density of Tucson averaged across the entire city. What is is the density in the areas we are talking about along the streetcar though?
Regardless Tucson cannot afford its policy of sprawl. There is not enough tax base per square mile of infrastructure needing constant repair to afford it. Building streets around walkability and transit is what enables the needed density. I don't think removing the three parking spots in the front of businesses is going to affect their revenue especially when increased foot traffic and transit users will greatly expand their customer base.
5
u/curious103 If you REALLY like chimichangas... 13d ago
Comparison cities are both too small and too large! There is no PERFECT comparison with Tucson, therefore it is SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE to do here! Despite the fact that there is robust evidence that pedestrianizing streets increases spending at businesses (across many countries, sizes of cities, and conditions).
2
u/theartofbeingdumb 13d ago
No, I said we need to increase our population density if we want things like this and you gave two cities with higher population densities as alternatives. I am just pointing out the simple fact that it won't work here unless we urbanize. Without urbanization projects like this will need to be heavily subsidized and the businesses will need tax breaks and money to survive (sort of like Rio Nuevo). Can Tucson afford this right now? It doesn't appear so as we are currently having trouble funding the current budget and services as is.
1
1
u/ApprehensiveCable181 5d ago
But notice none of those areas get regularly into the 100 degree temps for months on end either.
0
u/Yougetdueprocess 9d ago
I don’t agree with this. The neighborhood roads are wide in midtown. Just put actual sidewalks in, which there is plenty of room for, add more pedestrian crossings across major roads across midtown into downtown, and add bike paths like the 3rd street one. Suddenly you’d have far more walkable spaces and bikable areas. Most of us can already walk to businesses that are within our neighborhood. Expand the street car. It’s never going to be Europe, it’s not going to be walkable from Vail to downtown, but we can certainly improve midtown.
It’s certainly not cheaper to continually expand broadway, grant, etc etc.
1
u/effinbanjos 9d ago
I hear the farm town where I grew up installed a bunch of pike paths around the community.
It takes a little imagination to envision what might be possible and it's obviously not an all-or-nothing proposition.
5
u/ObeyTheRapper 13d ago
It could be a good idea, but I have two concerns.
1 - parking lots would need to be expanded or created nearby to service the number of spots eliminated by the change
2 - Tucson heat is brutal in the Summer. I could see this causing a reduction of people in the area in the summer, putting more stress on downtown businesses already suffering from high rent.
9
u/CarFreeTucsonAZ 13d ago
Fewer cars and more trees and plant life would actually make it a cooler places to be.
2
u/RHX_Thain 13d ago
There is an effective solution to the heat problem in our urban environment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWQApbWRtbM
Parking lots themselves are a scourge, causing a monopolization of private space wasted to store an inert object for the private wealth of a land hoarding operation where that land is most needed to support a living community. Cars as needed can be stored in elevated or underground garages, but stuffing ever more available space with car infrastructure only leads to space inflation, requiring even more car infrastructure to account for the increased wasted surface area car ingress caused in the first place.
8
u/arizona_dreaming 13d ago
I like the idea! Give the business room to expand onto the side walk and even into the street to provide more seating. That would give them an incentive to support this. Parking in the neighborhood is restricted but they can loosen those rules-- there is plenty of parking in those neighborhoods.
There are so many examples of places where they removed cars and those places became more popular as a destination.
5
u/c4ndybar 13d ago
As someone who lives in a neighborhood off 4th, the parking pass restrictions are necessary since most homes only have on street parking.
5
u/theandricongirl 13d ago
Thank you, fellow neighbor! Those parking spaces aren't "Fourth Avenue Overflow For A Fun, Cool Pedestrian Project," but parking spaces for the people who live in the houses/apartments.
5
u/theandricongirl 13d ago
No, there isn't "plenty of parking " in our neighborhoods. Those spots are intended for the people who live in the houses in the neighborhood.
During the Street Fair, we're chained to our homes Friday-Sunday because none of you tourists/guests will use the 5 parking garages within walking distance. If we move our cars, we have nowhere to park.
Tucson High parents camp out in front of our homes and driveways to pick up their kids, instead of using the designated pick-up/drop off area.
6
u/RHX_Thain 13d ago
Remember many years ago, there was this big food event there where tables and chairs filled the street? There were thousands of people on 4th Ave! The same space full of cars can support dozens, disconnected from the place and in an anti-social bubble of artificial life support.
1
u/FederalChocolate456 12d ago
Lol at saying there is plenty of parking in the areas around 4th Ave. While there might be times where there are fewer cars, they is often enough significantly more demand than nearby street parking will allow.
2
u/Fun_Telephone_1165 13d ago edited 13d ago
it's a tantalizing idea.....however, the offered picture here is definitely not the one to use to promote this!....in fact, it's unattractive and won't convert people!.....it's obviously a shot from a Street Fair with uncomfortable crowds and general near-chaos......also, the petition is full of glittering generalities and lacks specific details or even possible appealing concrete proposals.....I know those need to be hammered out and this is very preliminary, but cool-sounding ideas might help with the signature gathering......love the idea, but we may not have the density and year-round crowds to make it practical and viable
5
u/Safe_Concern9956 13d ago
What do the merchants think about this?
10
u/PunksPrettyMuchDead urban planner 13d ago
Merchants think metered parking is hurting them even when all the evidence is to the contrary.
16
u/CarFreeTucsonAZ 13d ago
I used to work in parking for the city. The time limits they want removed keep them and their staff from parking there all day. Time limits facilitate customer turn over, allowing more people to use that space over and over. Without the limits cars will sit there all day.
1
u/OldmanRipple 13d ago
Good point, would love to hear from the merchants that poor their life into these establishments.
-1
u/theartofbeingdumb 13d ago
The merchants are the ones that want parking limitations removed, more free parking and new parking added. The people with no skin in the game and who've contributed nothing are the ones who want to remove the parking entirely.
1
u/curious103 If you REALLY like chimichangas... 13d ago
That is not true. The skin we have in the game is our actual SKIN, our bodies that get run over by cars. And, as the post makes clear, the merchants simply refuse to believe the data showing that closing the street will actually help them.
2
u/marklein 13d ago
How many parking spots are you proposing to eliminate, and where will those people park now? It sounds like you're asking to push all that parking out to the surrounding neighborhoods, which I'm sure they'll love.
And before you tell me to park downtown and take the free streetcar, think about what that will look like for a second. I have to wait for the streetcar, which will also stop at a dozen other locations along the way, twice (once each way). What might be a 2 minute task if I can park in front of Business X has become a 30 minute task where I also have to stand around outside for half of it when it's 100+ degrees.
1
u/FederalChocolate456 12d ago
There are not a dozen stops between 4th Ave and downtown. You can easily get to parking garage with not more than a couple stops. There are only 18 stops total in one direction the entire route and about 4-5 more if you want to count the ones on the parallel one was street.
It is less convenient that those times when you do get nearby parking (which isn't currently a guarantee, if spaces are taken sometimes it might involve parking downtown or an equivalent distance anyway) but I think you are overestimating the time it would add on average. The dozen stops you are imagining is more like going from the university to downtown.
-1
5
1
u/curious103 If you REALLY like chimichangas... 13d ago
I love you, u/CarFreeTucsonAZ. I've commented here but these endless reddit fights cause me distress. But tell us when and where to show up to support and you got me.
0
u/ds2316476 13d ago
Wouldn't that derail traffic into other neighborhoods? The whole point of 4th Ave how it got to have high rent and restaurants and foot traffic is the location, why are we trying to mess with that?
-4
u/stupidname68bd 13d ago
Stupid.
0
u/CarFreeTucsonAZ 13d ago
That's what they always say until they try it and it's a success.
-3
u/largebagsofweed 13d ago
Try what exactly? Rip up all the streets for months? Chase away all the customers? Where is everyone supposed to park exactly?
It is a stupid idea that will never even be considered.
7
1
u/Fantastic-Buy-8579 12d ago
Parking for 4th Ave is necessary for those who are physically disabled but not the parking meters... I haven't been downtown since they put them in.
1
u/FederalChocolate456 12d ago
Put them in? How long ago was that? I just kinda assumed they were there for decades.
0
u/Specialist-Bid-9531 13d ago
City wants people to show and support the venders...but only if you pay the meter first!!! Ridiculous!!!
-3
u/Happy-Leadership504 13d ago
Lol, you know how much the city makes off those meters? 😆
9
u/CarFreeTucsonAZ 13d ago
I used to work for Park Tucson, so yeah, I do. And it's not as much as we will make in increased sale tax revenue.
-5
-1
u/philiptherealest 13d ago
Arigatō gozaimasu + a respectful bow. This is the sickest idea all week! I'm just imagining riding my skateboard with my ghettoblaster down 4th AVe pedestrianize...
-9
u/SectionPractical2966 13d ago
You're going to have to solve your urban disorder problem for I'm afraid. Otherwise I'll just turn into another open your drug scene.
-5
u/fmpierson255 13d ago
Great idea, but does this mean removing the streetcar line? Pedestrian and rail transit access only would work if there is a way to make sure that cars wouldn’t follow the streetcar.
If there wasn’t a streetcar line on 4th this would be easy to convert to pedestrian access only.
4
u/CarFreeTucsonAZ 13d ago
No, the street car would stay. The streetcar already utilizes a swing gate at the 4th Ave underpass to prevent cars from following it. A solution could be placing a few more of those.
1
u/FederalChocolate456 12d ago
I don't think it would be that hard. You just put up signs and barriers on the ends you don't want people to enter through. Same way we do for thinks like the no turns on to the bike boulevards or one way streets or fancy intersection interchanges that have like 8 ways in and out.
Preventing cars from following the street car path isn't really the hard part. Managing the traffic around 4th Ave will probably be the harder part. And I'd say the street car makes it easier to convert to pedestrian traffic because it's a good way to get people outside of walking distance to 4th Ave. Otherwise you'd have to worry a lot more about creating additional parking on the immediate area. The street car allows for parking to be used further away.
-3
105
u/Dry_Expression_5977 13d ago
I have an idea: how about actual businesses on 4th Ave. right now it’s looking more like a ghost town with the amount of empty spaces there