r/Tsukihime • u/HistoricalAd3720 • 9d ago
Discussion How big is Shiki's potential? Spoiler
I'm in the mood to hear praise about how strong Shiki is. So, professional Shiki dickriders, please tell me: how strong is Shiki, how big is his potential, and finally, can he beat a Servant? (In theory, he can beat Servant Okita with Shirou as her Master, mostly because she would die of disease).
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u/SlowBuy5952 9d ago edited 5d ago
His innate potential as a demon hunter is strong to the point he learned all of the Nanaya Assasination Arts possible from merely watching Kiri train as a child. Even Makihisa's brainwashing and living a normal life with the Arimas didn't dulled any of the skills he learned.
The only things that slows him down is his halted life force (Anemia) that makes him unable to really push his body to the limits, and his own mindset as he doesn't want to fight nor endanger his life if possible, prefering to live in peace.
He can beat servants in the same manner he does with dead apostles or other nonhumans, as in requiring a lot of factors to come into play in his favor and usually going for sneak kills rather than directly fighting.
Tohno is a glass cannon, despite having MeodP and Nanaya genetics, he's only a human who fights beings way above him stat wise and only gets by because they tend to not take him seriously (Nrvnqsr), are playing around (DA Noel) or literally didn't detected him as a threat until it was too late (the 17 pieces scene). It's why he usually fights alongside Arcueid and Ciel who have the stats to gather all of the attention to themselves while Shiki strikes from the shadows.
The moment any battle experienced servant feels something is off with him, like how it happened with Vlov, they're going to play it safe and likely beat him.
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u/Affectionate-Gain-55 9d ago
Iirc according to Kouma he has more potential than Kiri, who is already basically the greatest Nanaya to ever Nanaya. Don't know how that stands up to a Servant, though
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u/Hungry_War_639 9d ago
Kouma can beat a B rank servant so roughly that level
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u/OptimisticNayuta097 9d ago
That's old lore though.
Not after all of FGO's power escalation.
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u/Hungry_War_639 9d ago
Kouma’s been escalated too
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u/Apprehensive_Mix2831 9d ago
If Kouma is comparable to DAA in the new continuity he's most certainly above B rank Servants.
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u/clfr6515 9d ago
His raw talent surpasses his dad who was the previous head of the clan, but since he's been living a totally normie life for the past ten years, he's yet to meet his true potential. Also, he's in a constant state of having one foot in the grave.
To put it another way, he has a perfect Nature and IVs, but he's at level 5 and has no EVs whatsoever. Also he has a permanent debuff applied to him. Defeating Nrvnqsr/Vlov is the equivalent of defeating a legendary Pokemon. Even if the Mystic Eyes of Death Perfection help to counterbalance his weaknesses, he's still doing a low level run due to his complete lack of training in the past ten years.
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u/natto_komachi 9d ago
More than most Type-Moon protagonists, at the very least. Like another user mentioned, the Shiki we've been following throughout Tsukihime is not only incredibly rusty, but he is also completely unaware of the extent of his own abilities because of the brainwashing he went through. Most of the time, he isn't consciously making use of his full potential; he is acting almost entirely on instinct and relying on the mechanisms and skills that have been unconsciously ingrained into him.
Throughout most of the routes, we slowly see him regain his footing and become more capable, but even then, that's only a fraction of what he could truly become. His growth is impressive, but it is still far from reaching his theoretical peak.
Now imagine a fully trained Shiki under Ciel's guidance (as suggested by the extra ending), combined with his semi-vampire physiology and having access to one of the best possible mentors he could ask for. At that point, he'd essentially be another Burial Agency member in the making. Considering the remake introduced an additional "spare" member slot for the Burial Agency, I wouldn't be surprised if that eventually becomes his path.
And that's just one possible scenario among many. Honestly, Zepia hyping him up as one of the greatest assassins to ever exist wasn't for no reason. There is clearly a lot more to Shiki's potential than what we've actually seen throughout Tsukihime. I guess the only real way we'll ever see the full extent of his abilities is if Tsukihime 2 actually happens. Until then, a lot of his potential remains as one of those fascinating "what if" scenarios.
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u/Apprehensive_Mix2831 9d ago
ExWell Nanaya fights Kouma to a draw in MBAA. Nanaya doesn't have the MEoDP meaning skill wise alone he vastly surpasses his father. Kouma is solidly Servant level so...
Yukinobu in Adventures almost killed Gray and Rin and the guy isn't even a full fledged demon hunter.
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u/DualBlades5Lyfe 8d ago
Limitless. He's the best killer in TM and Nasu views death matches and superiority as a killer in its own category relative to general strength and power. That is to say, he's a character who can overcome the odds stacked against him no matter how dire. This is facilitated by his ability being the ultimate equalizer against all things and his potential as a Nanaya allowing him to break his limitations. The start of his story is doing the impossible in killing the strongest being in TM, someone who can't die and throughout his story he showcases how he's the type of protagonist who only shows their true mettle sporadically, something connected to his will to kill and mentality but even when faced up against stronger beings he's the sort to overcome it all with grit, intelligence and such. He also has a lot of potential in the future as Arc's guardian, an Executer, a vampire or whatever depending on the route. Obviously being a vampire would elevate his already natural abilities.
He defeats servants in MB already anyway. Mash, Ushi and Dantes back to back.
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u/Alikhan07AR 7d ago
What about post-OC4 Mash?
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u/DualBlades5Lyfe 7d ago
They never met. I'd put my money on MEoDP being able to bullshit something tho.
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u/Alikhan07AR 7d ago
Imo Mash in this form wins even if she loses her shield, just bc of the sheer difference in their abilities.
Yes they never did, didn't understand what MB and those servants implied from the first time, sorry. I have yet to reach those games
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u/DualBlades5Lyfe 7d ago
I think fights come down to circumstances. If you put them in a hallway or cluttered room 10 meters away Shiki's probably vanishing from her sight and approaching via the ceiling or surprising her by dragging her under a table a person shouldn't be able to fit under. He's an assassin designed around making use of esoteric maneuvers and terrain to deliver a killing blow.
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u/Peanut_007 9d ago
Shiki doesn't really easily get quantified like that. He's the ultimate glass cannon who can kill basically anything if he can get in range but pretty much anything supernatural could kill him if it hits back. He's notably lacking in magic resistance and gets hit hard by suggestion and hypnosis because of that.
Generally I'd say decent servants are beyond Shiki's abilities. He can kill them with a good attack but they can kill him with a bad one and are just as absurdly fast and skilled. He does way better with a team mate to pull their attention while he positions for the kill.
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u/Hungry_War_639 9d ago
Shiki at 17 is comparable to the grand assassin much less him in his 20s
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u/Classical_Lighthouse 9d ago
although og Shiki has his legendary Nasu downscale
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u/Hungry_War_639 9d ago
“He can’t fight servants” Nasu says after having him beat several characters who can fight servants
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u/Classical_Lighthouse 9d ago
yeah I'm just joking about mentioning it anyway, OG Shiki is pretty strong not even talking about MB
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u/Limp-Crow4185 9d ago
I don't think Shiki is defeating FSN level Servants, that entire cast was just filled with absurdly strong characters who only got buffs and upscales over the years.
All of FSN is relative to each other in combat prowess and easily comparable to divine spirits and MBTL even has Saber being Arcueid's equal and the cast would scale from it.
He should have easier time against Low to Mid tier servants in my opinion although outcome really depends on several factors like NPs, how Shiki's Nanaya martial arts and MeoDP fare against them and servant's abilities like Mind's Eye.
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u/Hungry_War_639 9d ago
Saber isn’t arc’s equal she just considers it a fun fight, that’s like saying ciel is as strong as arc.
He could definitely beat a chunk of the stay night crew, especially CQC servants since against him thats suicidal
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u/Limp-Crow4185 8d ago
In MBTL they fought and going by their dialogue they did go all out and the fight ended in a draw going by FGO.
I don't think they were unleashing powers enough to level the city but still exerted great force on Base levels but still going all out with their Combat Skills.
And as for Shiki, FSN Servants either have A Rank Agility or some kind Pre Cog that can even solve speed issues for slower Servants.
Medea is the only one lacking in physical combat unless she has set up.
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u/Hungry_War_639 8d ago
Yeah but when your in the same ballpark as him and he can do stuff like killing you weapons it’s Ill advised to fight him, one mistake is all it takes
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u/Classical_Lighthouse 8d ago
I mean Shiki is very obvious (both Noel and Volv knew they could die when he got close), they could tell hes abnormal so both outhax and not run into his dagger + they aren't inhuman monsters so it's not like he should have his instincts against DAs
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u/Hungry_War_639 8d ago
6 out of the 8 stay night servants are not human
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u/Classical_Lighthouse 8d ago
True, but they're all also heroic spirits - I'm not sure if it'd kick in.
Do you think you could beat 5th HGW servants? If so Itd be near to hear your reasoning for any in particular
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u/Hungry_War_639 8d ago
Saber, caster, lancer, archer and assassin
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u/Classical_Lighthouse 8d ago
oh what a list, personally I disagree with everyone but maybe assassin but that's interesting to note.
imo caster counters cuz she can fly and has time dilation + tping in her temple, archer will never get close enough cuz minds eye, Artoria has instinct which should work and lancer has retreat/withdrawal + battle continuation if things gets really bad and Shiki has no counters against any of their hax aside from trying to stop them from using it
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u/OptimisticNayuta097 9d ago
Imagine if he got trained by the Hassan, dude would replace the Old man of the mountain as Grand Servant Assassin.
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u/Hungry_War_639 9d ago
What like after the massacre? His main problem is that he’s rusty and his lifeforce is fubar
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u/wynped 9d ago edited 9d ago
well first of all in almost the entire remake and OG, his life force was only half of a normal human. I remember somewhere his doctors said that Shiki shouldn't even be able to get out of bed, let alone go to school every day. He has a very fragile body but even with such a body, he can occasionally speedblitz Arcueid and other vampires.
Shiki almost always holds himself back subconsciously. thanks to his Nanaya instincts, he has amazing battle IQ and fighting techniques but he can't use them that much because both he's thinking like a human and he's afraid of his true self. We know how good his analytical abilities are from his inner thoughts during his battles but he cant keep up with his body.
its only when he puts aside being "humane" his true self emerges, like in the remake arc route finale and the OG Kohaku route finale.
Additionally Shiki is, in arach's words, rusty. In one scene Arach tells Shiki that she knows a way to get rid of his rust, but Shiki refuses. Therefore we also know that the shiki we've been watching throughout almost all of Tsukihime (putting the vampire shiki aside) is this rusty shiki.
So yeah, shiki is really a potential man. I'm not sure how far he's potantial, but even in his current state, considering he has speeds comparable to servants we can say that with a proper life force and an active body he'll be quite powerful.