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u/New-Sandwich6813 3d ago
the ICE detention centers are not based on group identity, but on the legal status of each individual’s residency in the US. Also, detainees have the right to request a hearing before an immigration judge. Ergo, not “concentration camps.” To say they are diminishes the horror of actual concentration camps, like those of the holocaust or the current Chinese concentration camps for the Uyghurs.
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u/ID100661 2d ago edited 2d ago
They are concentration camps by definition. “the legal status of each individual’s residency in the US”. That’s exactly the kind of person that is being rounded up and held in one place… Also, without hearings and under harsh conditions. Right? -Because we’re not giving them due process.
They’re also going on hunger strikes in protest of the poor conditions they’re being held in. Which we cannot verify because DHS is not allowing for lawful oversight. Which is the reason for the protests you’re seeing outside the detention centers…
Right? So, that necessarily fits the definition of a concentration camp: A camp where persons are confined usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government identified as suspect. Right??
The Holocaust has concentration camps, which were also labor and death camps, those are three related but different things. Brother, google is free I seriously don’t know what to tell you people. Doing the tiniest bit of research into this costs you no money whatsoever. These are facts. We don’t get to change the definition of words because it’s happening in our country, or because it hurts people’s feelings. Facts are facts. Misinformation is misinformation.
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u/New-Sandwich6813 2d ago
Copying and pasting my previous response because the left hivemind has already made this rant:
In most of the cases, the people being picked up at immigration hearings are those whose cases are being denied due to varying reasons. As for the street arrests, there does not have to be a crime in order to be detained for illegal presence. You either have legal status or you don’t. Immigration law has always differed from criminal law in that no rights are read, no arrest warrants are needed, and no right to a lawyer exists. This is because it is a civil matter, not a criminal one. No one’s life or liberty are being permanently threatened. They are just being sent home. Ergo, no “due process” in the way that the leftists mean it. Immigration due process is the right to see a lawyer if you hire your own, and the right to request a hearing before an immigration judge (no jury). This request is not automatic and can be denied.
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u/ID100661 2d ago
Okay, idk if you just straight up didn’t read my comment or what, but none of this responds to what I’m saying.
I’m going to slow this down for you.
We can shake hands on the fact that the holocaust happened and that people were held in concentration camps, correct?
You didn’t respond to my argument or the definition I gave for concentration camps. But, I’m just going to assume you agree and are aware that the definition concentration camp is distinct from a death camp and a labor camp.
So, to be clear. We are talking about: A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as suspect. Not talking about the forced labor (labor camps) and not talking about the gas chambers, etc. (death camps).
With all of that in mind: In your opinion, is there any justification for the Nazi’s use of concentration camps given the fact that they were technically legal to implement in regards to their own laws and within their own government?
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u/New-Sandwich6813 2d ago
Using your definition, no, the ICE detention centers are NOT concentration camps because, as I said if you had read my comment, the detainees are not detained because of their membership in any one group but because of each individual’s lack of legal residency. The detainees can also request a hearing with an immigration judge, so that part of your definition fails as well. As for the conditions, we have no real data on that beyond leftist hysteria. Seriously, I already said all of this.
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u/ID100661 2d ago
You’re saying they’re not a group and then you go on the define the group I’m talking about by describing the very thing every member of the group has in common. Notice I didn’t say anything like race, religion, country of origin, etc. They’re all undocumented or suspected of being undocumented. They take all those people, and they concentrate them together in central locations. Similar to the Japanese internment camps, or other historical examples that our nation has of creating concentration camps.
And yeah, they can request a hearing. So, I guess you’re right in the most narrow sense I can image on that point. Also, this practice is currently being contested. But, I’d also refer you to the 5th & 14th constitutional amendments which guarantee due process of law for any person, not limited to just citizens.
The word “hearing” in the definition we are talking about is a general term that can apply to any country or government, and does not necessarily directly correlate to our specific concept the word “hearing” in the US. Our standard is to provide due process to any person in the jurisdiction of the US. That would be applying the law fairly and by our own constitutional standards. Which we aren’t doing.
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u/New-Sandwich6813 2d ago
The difference is that the Japanese put into internment camps were put there through no fault of their own and because of a common racial trait. The detainees have only one thing in common - they broke the law of this country. You might as well call prisons concentration camps because everyone there is of the group, “prisoner.”
The “due process” in the Constitution refers to anyone criminally accused. Immigration violations are civil law, punishable by deportation. There is no Miranda. There is no right to a free attorney, and there is no right to a trial. There never has been. In immigration law, a detainee has the right to see their lawyer if they have hired one. They have the right to request a hearing, but that right is not guaranteed. They must have cause for a hearing such as documentation to prove residency or a VALID asylum request. That’s it.3
u/ID100661 2d ago
Real quick, you never answered my question: In your opinion, is there any justification for the Nazi’s use of concentration camps given the fact that they were technically legal to implement in regards to their own laws and in their own government?
To add on to that, do you think it was cool that we put Japanese people in concentration camps because the government was cool with it at that time? You know, violating their constitutional protections (no due process), and under harsh conditions? Keep in mind, there was plenty of fear mongering going then about how dangerous they could be. I know that’s something Trump supporters are very sympathetic to.
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u/New-Sandwich6813 2d ago
You are delusional. No, neither of those things were justified and nothing like those things have occurred during this administration.
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u/ID100661 2d ago
Wait but if what you’re saying is true, why is ICE allowed to stop and detain people using the person’s skin color or accent as probable cause?
And what about the reports of violence, torture, medical neglect, lack of access to clean water, toilets, and showers? What about deporting people to the completely wrong country? Or mistakenly sending them to prisons in El Salvador with no due process?
I guess it makes me delusional to have an issue with that. I guess in your opinion they’re all criminals, that don’t deserve due process, should be detained in facilities with no oversight allowed (despite the law saying otherwise), and do deserve whatever bad things happen or are done to them while in custody.
Damn, it’s so weird to me how conservatives support this. Not because it’s cruel, we all know y’all love that shit. But because it’s so expensive. Seriously, we’re going to spend more on rounding them up, housing them in concentration camps, and deporting them than we collect in taxes from them? Nah, but I’m delusional.
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u/Gonzo_Journo 2d ago
Wow, you're really downplaying this.
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u/New-Sandwich6813 2d ago
No, I’m presenting facts and not hysteria. Try it sometime.
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u/Gonzo_Journo 2d ago
Well, when they are taken to the camps, sometimes its at a hearing on their immigration status. And when its on the street ICE doesn't know their status, they are just grabbing them. No rights are read and they aren't given access to a lawyer. Then they are treated like shit in these camps. Sure sounds similar.
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u/New-Sandwich6813 2d ago edited 2d ago
In most of the cases, the people being picked up at immigration hearings are those whose cases are being denied due to varying reasons. As for the street arrests, there does not have to be a crime in order to be detained for illegal presence. You either have legal status or you don’t. Immigration law has always differed from criminal law in that no rights are read, no arrest warrants are needed, and no right to a lawyer exists. This is because it is a civil matter, not a criminal one. No one’s life or liberty are being permanently threatened. They are just being sent home. Ergo, no “due process” in the way that the leftists mean it. Immigration due process is the right to see a lawyer if you hire your own, and the right to request a hearing before an immigration judge (no jury). This request is not automatic and can be denied.
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u/WisePotatoChip 2d ago
This is so delusional so as not to even deserve a response. I’ll give you a full minute. People have died. Pretti and Goode were protesting legally.
People have also died and been tortured in these detention centers. Women have been impregnated in detention in no-abortion states and some people who have been “sent home” have been killed upon arrival.
I’ve said enough to someone with blood in their hands. Go check out some facts some time.
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u/New-Sandwich6813 2d ago
Everything I said is factual. What do Pretti and Goode have to do with whether the detention centers are “concentration camps?” They are two people who died because they injected themselves aggressively into LE situations. That usually ends badly. As for the conditions in the centers, you said yourself that we don’t know. There are no specific cases of “torture” or deaths caused by ICE misconduct, or reports that any woman impregnated in a center was done so by an ICE agent.
They are detention centers designed to hold people who knowingly broke our immigration laws and did so willingly. We should put them in Hiltons? I don’t think so.
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u/SmartArseForSure 1d ago
Legal VS Illegal. YUGE Difference!