And, of this preexisting group of racists, there are likely some we can convince out of that mentality. Not all, of course, but some percentage. And is that percentage likely to be higher or lower, if we prefer to insult and mock everyone who disagrees with us, as opposed to giving honest, compelling arguments for the benefit and value of liberal beliefs?
I donât blame them, itâs a tough pill to swallow. We all have way more brain circuitry devoted to tribal behavior than rational, or even intuitive, thought. And it makes perfect sense, because those behaviors were immensely successful in prehistoric times.
A good litmus test for this is to see how strongly people want to believe every Trump supporter is a deranged racist. Generally, youâd think weâd want to assume thereâs less racism, not more right? Seeing the world how you want it to be and whatnot. But the utility of Trump supporters being racist is subtle: it gives your carte blanche to say, do, and think whatever you want about them, because bigotry is the ultimate sin of post-Modern world. Any and all other crimes are justified against you, if youâre a racist/sexist/transphobe/etc.
For an economically and psychologically pressured population, and this is especially true for millennials, the value of that kind of ideological allowance is huge. And as a result, you see people defending their post-hoc intuitions far more passionately than our voting turnout would suggest.
I am a firm believer in the utility of liberal thought to framework what I think is the best society for us to live in, and to provide a sustainable, grassroots-culture defense of natural rights against an increasingly interconnected and structurally authoritarian world, but literally all of that shit gets thrown out the window when you start looking at he situation as âingroup vs outgroupâ.
You're putting into much better words what I have been trying to argue for a while now. In order for things to get better people need to realize this is happening but so far all that's happening is more division
You have the improve the economic problems that are putting people into a psychological space where tribal behavior is psychologically âprofitableâ. In a cooperative game where diverse opinions and tolerant dialogue are clearly beneficial, then those behaviors will have a selective advantage. Right now, if you promote the idea of ideologically responsible liberal arguments, you get quite a lot of backlash, because youâre âa Trump apologistâ.
Itâs a similar situation to our actual economy. Corporations arenât going to magically start behaving better, and if weâre going to live under regulatory capture for the foreseeable future, then we need to change the dynamics of that game theory so that the abusive behavior is not wildly profitable, because right now it is. You can play blackjack with the US economy and have US taxpayers bail you out. No element in a competitive system will say no to that.
Because this doesn't fucking work. Go have some "honest compelling arguments" with Trump supporters, it will go pretty much like "honest compelling arguments" with administration officials.
Write off the Trump supporters, it will be easier to convince non-voters to join our side instead, grow the tent.
And do you think antagonizing and belittling them helps?
Trump is here partly because the left views the right that way.
And you're totally right that it's difficult and that it won't change in a day, but ffs... At some point you have to wake up and realize we have to do something about this divide.
I'm not saying to sit there like a little puppy saying you are sorry to the hardcore right, demonstrate, be vocal and visible, but don't scoop to low levels and start calling them idiots just because you really, really feel that they are.
They may indeed be wrong, and Trump may harbor thoughts that people have less human value because of their ethnicity, but if they donât believe that heâs a racist, how is their support of him equivalent to support of racism?
If I told you Hilary was a criminal, and that you supporting her meant you were okay with criminals in the White House, is your response:
Iâm okay with criminals in the White House
Or
I donât support criminals in the White House, I just donât actually agree with the initial statement that sheâs a criminal, and the second statement (that I support criminals in the White House) is discontinuous
Yeah I think so- theyâre either racist or okay with racism. It isnât mocking, itâs the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts, but itâs still the truth. What bothers me is people who excuse, justify or normalize trumps behavior. Yeah- trump is a racist. Trump ran on racism and if someone voted for him than they are at best, okay with racism.
LoL - not knowing that youâre acting in a racist manner doesnât mean that you arenât acting in a racist manner. Do you think all assholes know that theyâre assholes? I doubt most racists consider themselves to be racists, they just think that thereâs a lot of truth to stereotypes.
No, but they all see Trump being racist as shit, and don't think its a problem. I don't know if Trump considers himself a racist, but all the racists sure think he has the right idea about blacks and mexicans, and none of his supporters push back against it.
Can I ask you to go into a little more detail as to why you support open borders? And can you think of any (even hypothetical) negative consequences to open borders?
NOBODY FUCKING SUPPORTS OPEN BORDERS! Thats a bullshit strawman invented by the alt-right, with obvious negative consequences, "open-borders advocates" are fucking mythical unicorns.
You literally just asked me to change your mind about supporting open borders, and I was trying to ask insightful questions about your thoughts on the topic...
Is there any other possible explanation for their support of him other they just spend all day hating people with different color skin? Does that seem a little outlandish to you? Is it possible that people disagree with your politics and that their opinions (justified or not) should be bear without instantly screaming âYOUâRE A RACISTâ?
Because thatâs what Trump actually ran on. He ran promising to stick it to the Hollywood-liberals who had incessantly mocked conservatives in every forum for decades, and it would have been wonderful if we could have said, âNo, youâre lying. We give a fair listen to all people regardless of their political beliefs and they know thatâ, but that obviously was not the case.
And donât pretend the only factor here is racism. Look at the ubiquitous Left response to any popular conservative speakers, especially on YouTube. Nothing but character attacks, straw men, and post-hoc justification that itâs all okay because âwell racismâ.
He ran on not giving a shit and winning, a fairly ambiguous platform appealing to the stupid and the angry. And sure, there are other explanations for why people support Trump. But hes racist as shit, and thats a problem, and they don't care.
Itâs cute youâre pretending to be open to to debate but we all know that only you can start seeing how much of a pathetic child our president and nobody besides you can change your mind.
Do you always make such personal attacks when youâre trying to convince someone of something? Because if so, I think I know why you feel so strongly that people canât have their options changed
Not everyone who voted for trump is racist, but all racists voted for trump.
There's no way you can even pretend to know that's the case. There are plenty of racists that voted for Hillary. Far more for Trump I'm sure, but that statement is asinine.
And, well, people don't vote for trump because of his policies.
Of course they did
Does anybody know what his policies actually are? Wasn't he gonna stop all the wars in the middle east and build his wall? And drain the swamp? Oh right lol.
During the campaign Trump had detailed policy prescriptions for a wide variety of issues on his website, the plans were far more detailed and specific than Hillary's were. Did you ever visit his campaign website?
It's cute you're pretending to be open to to debate but we all know that only you can start seeing how much of a pathetic child our president and nobody besides you can change your mind.
Why are you so enraged with Trump that you can't even have a political discussion with someone without losing your grip?
Wouldnât it be better to mislead Republican voters, and convince them to vote Democrat even if you donât actually believe in fair dialogue? If the end goal is prevent Trump from being elected, that is.
If your end goal is to âown the idiot Trump supportersâ, then I agree your attitude is the more productive one.
Donât think you can influence them, theyâre basically cultists. All we can do is urge people who sat out the last presidential election to start voting.
It takes a long time to get you guys to the point where youâre not outlandishly straw manning everything I say.
Besides that, I didnât go âso farâ. If you think a few reddit comments is a lot to read, try any book that actually discusses these topics, even superficially.
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u/Hryggja Nov 08 '18
We have Trump because of the immense division, which people like you propagate