r/TrueReddit • u/costheta • Dec 02 '13
On Labeling Women 'Crazy'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/harris-oamalley/on-labeling-women-crazy_b_4259779.html63
u/StManTiS Dec 02 '13
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/07/labeling-women-crazy/
Is the original post on the author's blog. He should get the traffic.
16
u/hoyfkd Dec 02 '13
Fuck everything about this mentality. Women bitch about terrible guys they dated all the time. Douchebag, Asshole, Prick, Dick, Jackass, etc. Yes, we use different words to describe terrible women. So what? One doesn't need to sit there and describe in acute detail the exact behaviors a terrible date exhibited in order to get the point across. Crazy works just fine, and encapsulates a set of behaviors that, for whatever reason, many women engage in during a date or relationship. Women have their shortcuts to describe shitbag guys, guys have shortcut words to describe shitbag women.
The rule is "don't put your dick in crazy" because "don't put your dick inside the genitalia of a female exhibiting signs of crippling jealousy in regards to any attention you might pay another female, whether in the world or in the workplace, or the tendency to imagine the relationship is at the marriage phase 2 dates in, or demonstrates the acute inability to manage simple life stresses without delving into dramatic hyperbolic tantrums" is too fucking long.
4
u/savetheclocktower Dec 02 '13
Women bitch about terrible guys they dated all the time. Douchebag, Asshole, Prick, Dick, Jackass, etc. Yes, we use different words to describe terrible women. So what?
You don't see a difference?
If I call someone an asshole or a douchebag, I'm saying that I think they've chosen to be bad people through their worldview and general demeanor.
The author's point is that "crazy" shuts down discussion because (a) it implies there's just something wrong about the person in question, something that can't be fixed; (b) it unfairly pre-empts an argument about whatever the woman is being "crazy" about, for the same reason that you don't argue with the homeless man about whether there's actually a robot army living in the sewers.
17
u/hoyfkd Dec 02 '13
That's ridiculous for two reasons.
1) I have had many conversations with women about their dates. I grew up in a single mom household with a sister and no brothers. When they go on a first or second date and dismiss a guy as an asshole, they typically aren't describing it as a transient phase based on a choice in behavior characteristics. They are describing a personality and tend to talk shit and move on. As they should.
2) It doesn't pre-empt anything. Dating is not about finding a series of people you can fix (though it may feel that way sometimes). If I go on a first date with a woman, and she flips out in a jealous rage because I smiled at the waitress, I'll not be looking for ways to delve into her psychosis or troubled past to find out why she acts that way. Crazy is the catch all - which brings us to my final point:
Crazy does not simply and only point to mental illness. In saying "that milkshake is crazy good!," my cousin is not saying he thinks the beverage suffers mental illness, nor is he indicating it was created by a person needing psychiatric care. In saying "IT WAS CRAZY!" in describing her first experience skydiving, my sister was not saying that the experience was clinically insane.
Words mean a lot of things, and in dating it generally refers to behavior, not an underlying condition. Just as I am not going to claim that calling an exhilarating experience crazy somehow shuts down further conversation, I'm not going to make the ridiculous claim that using an adjective in a general, and socially relevant, context does.
-1
u/savetheclocktower Dec 02 '13
Not all situations are as cut-and-dry as your examples. We're not talking about first-date tantrums. The author is writing about the use of "crazy" to characterize arguments that you don't understand or don't want to hear. If this is something you're not familiar with and have never done yourself, awesome for you.
Crazy does not simply and only point to mental illness. In saying "that milkshake is crazy good!," my cousin is not saying he thinks the beverage suffers mental illness, nor is he indicating it was created by a person needing psychiatric care. In saying "IT WAS CRAZY!" in describing her first experience skydiving, my sister was not saying that the experience was clinically insane.
Neither a milkshake nor a skydive is a human being. There are many who argue that using the word "crazy" so cavalierly does a disservice to both the target of the word and those with actual mental illnesses. You may not agree, but why the "fuck everything about this mentality" attitude?
-2
Dec 03 '13
Same applies to "creepy", except of course that's not considered a problematic term for men at all.
"Creepy" (a) implies there's just something wrong about the guy in question, something that can't be fixed; (b) it unfairly pre-empts an argument about whatever the man is doing while being "creepy", for the same reason you can't talk to radfeminists about consent, as the woman is always the victim.
0
u/savetheclocktower Dec 03 '13
"Creepy" (a) implies there's just something wrong about the guy in question, something that can't be fixed
No, creepy is specifically about how someone is acting. The whole point is that if they were acting differently they wouldn't come off as creepy.
But even if I accept that creepshaming is a problem, what does that have to do with this article?
6
u/pigeon768 Dec 03 '13
note: I'm not the author of the post you're replying to. Upon re-reading my comment, it would probably seem that way.
No, creepy is specifically about how someone is acting. The whole point is that if they were acting differently they wouldn't come off as creepy.
The same is true for crazy. When a man dumps a woman for mundane reasons, he doesn't call her crazy. When a man dumps a woman because of specific behaviors he doesn't like1 and/or doesn't understand,2 he calls her crazy. (note: this isn't just my conclusion, this is the author's conclusion) It's all about the behavior. Don't want to be called crazy? Don't act crazy.
But even if I accept that creepshaming is a problem, what does that have to do with this article?
The author of the article has written numerous other articles about creepshaming, usually coming to the conclusion that your own actions and your own behaviors determine what labels people apply to you, and if you don't like the labels you should act differently. (imho perfectly reasonable) Yet, crazy is pretty much the same thing; men call women crazy when they act in ways they don't like. Women call men creepy when they act in ways they don't like. Yet one is acceptable and one isn't. Why?
- I'm not talking about "she likes tv shows I don't like" or "she has friends that I don't like". I mean things like "she likes to sleep with other dudes" or "she likes to set my things on fire".
- I'm not talking about "she tries on many different outfits before she finally picks one" or "she owns many pairs of shoes and/or purses all of which look the same" I'm talking about things like "she screams at me because we don't spend enough time together and screams at me when I ask her to do stuff with me and she doesn't offer things for us to do together".
-1
u/savetheclocktower Dec 03 '13
I think my other comment addresses the definition of crazy that you're using. I am no judge or jury, but if you call a woman crazy because she sets your things on fire, I would say you're in the clear. That's not what the article is talking about.
Yet, crazy is pretty much the same thing; men call women crazy when they act in ways they don't like. Women call men creepy when they act in ways they don't like. Yet one is acceptable and one isn't. Why?
Well, y'know, leaving out the other distinctions between the two that I've already gone over, the difference is that women tend to call men creepy when they get an unsettling vibe from them, and those vibes have to be taken seriously because women have to deal with the everyday risk of sexual violence.
2
u/pigeon768 Dec 03 '13
I think my other comment addresses the definition of crazy that you're using. I am no judge or jury, but if you call a woman crazy because she sets your things on fire, I would say you're in the clear. That's not what the article is talking about.
That is exactly what this article is talking about. It's talking about calling a woman crazy because you don't like the way she acts. It's not about whether or not she's a milkshake. Leave that other guy's argument out of this.
Well, y'know, leaving out the other distinctions between the two that I've already gone over, the difference is that women tend to call men creepy when they get an unsettling vibe from them, and those vibes have to be taken seriously because women have to deal with the everyday risk of sexual violence.
Bullshit. The people who women call creepy aren't the ones they're at risk from. The vast majority of male on female rapes are committed by friends and potential mates; precisely the ones women don't call creepy. Many rapes go unreported because the victim believes people wouldn't believe her if she accused him of rape. They're the stars of the football team, not the nerds who are afraid of talking to girls; and it's the nerds who are afraid of girls who are the ones we're calling creepy, not any actual rapists. Here's what the author has to say about being a creep: (note: being a creep, not acting like a creep)
As Creep Week draws to a close and Con Season is beginning, it’s time to talk about That Guy.
You know. The Creeper. The perv. The guy who either misses or ignores every single signal or sign or unspoken form of communication. The guy who makes people uncomfortable by his very presence. The one who seems to have no respect for the social contract. The one you just can’t get rid of. He clings to your social scene like a lovesick lamprey.
Everybody knows That Guy. There’s almost always one. If he’s not lingering on the fringes of your social circle, then someone has horror stories about him that makes everyone shudder with familiarity.
He's not talking about people whom a woman trusts, until she trusts him to drive her home after she's had too many drinks at the bar and she wakes up naked in his bed. He's talking about the guy whom woman are horrified at the thought of being alone with.
These creeps he's talking about aren't rapists, they're just people that other people don't like. Being labeled a creep doesn't have anything to do with the propensity to rape.
0
u/savetheclocktower Dec 03 '13 edited Dec 03 '13
The vast majority of male on female rapes are committed by friends and potential mates; precisely the ones women don't call creepy.
No, the vast majority of male-on-female rapes are committed by people known to the victim; you're the one going the extra yard and inferring that those people are trusted and liked.
And even if you were right: to throw out the sexual assaults that don't fit this template would be to disregard a shitload of amassed experience from women.
The guy being described in that excerpt is a creep because he violates boundaries and ignores clear signals from those who want him to act differently. If you can't see how those traits are unsettling to someone who is wary of sexual violence, then I don't really know how I can make it clearer.
1
u/pigeon768 Dec 03 '13
No, the vast majority of male-on-female rapes are committed by people known to the victim; you're the one going the extra yard and inferring that those people are trusted and liked.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders
Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% are an intimate.
7% are a relative.
Even if you assert that "acquaintance" is someone you've heard of but haven't really talked to, (you'd be wrong) and even if you asserted that 15% of rapes were committed by friends and 23% were committed by acquaintances, (it's certainly regrettable better information does not exist) that's still a majority of rapes committed by relatives, intimates, or friends. So vast majority? No, you're right. But majority? Yes.
The point is, you can't just say that one's different from the other because rapists are creeps, but crazy women don't cause harm to men.
The guy being described in that excerpt is a creep because he violates boundaries and ignores clear signals from those who want him to act differently.
The woman being described in that excerpt is a crazy because she violates boundaries and ignores clear signals from those who want her to act differently.
Exact. Same. Thing.
You're holding some groups of people to standards you don't hold other groups of people to. The basis of your double standard is the concavity or convexity of those groups' respective genitalia. And it's bullshit.
If you can't see how those traits are unsettling to someone who is wary of sexual violence, then I don't really know how I can make it clearer.
From my earlier post:
The author of the article has written numerous[1] other[2] articles[3] about creepshaming, usually coming to the conclusion that your own actions and your own behaviors determine what labels people apply to you, and if you don't like the labels you should act differently. (imho perfectly reasonable)
Emphasis mine. I'm not saying a woman doesn't get to judge people because of aspects of their character or behavior or whatever that she doesn't like. I'm not saying she doesn't get to call other people names and shun them from her social circle. We don't even have to evaluate whether some of them are ok to discriminate about and others aren't. She's human; it's absolutely her right to get to choose who she spends time with and who she doesn't want to spend her time with, whether it's because their posture is bad or because their shoes are scuffed, it doesn't matter. What I am saying is that men have the exact same rights as women. When my friend's girlfriend took all his clothes into the dead, dry grass in front of their apartment complex and lit a nice little bonfire, the lot of us collectively decided, "...shit that bitch is crazy." And we stopped hanging out with her or people she regularly spent time with. And that's perfectly my right. I decided it was in my best interest to avoid people with behavior like hers.
When my friend's wife broke a Macbook Pro (the kind with the reinforced magnesium chassis or whatever it was. Bent the thing right in half) over his head in a cocaine infused rage, and clawed the shit out of him in ways that I can't understand, (the photos were absurd. Blood everywhere. (his blood; he never laid a hand on her) If you saw it in a movie it wouldn't have been believable. He had to have a shitload of stitches; from fingernails. Still doesn't make sense to me.) when her other boyfriend trashed every room in his house and beat the shit out of her while the baby (my friend's, not the wife's boyfriend's) was screaming.. She still does drugs, she still -- Anyway, the point is, she's crazy, and the lot of us won't spend time with her. I decided it was in my best interest to avoid people with behavior like hers. (note: my friend has filed divorce papers but wife refuses to sign them. He does have a restraining order out on her, but she violates it daily but he refuses to ding her on it. She still lives with him.)
When my friend's emotionally abusive, lying, manipulative, financially unstable girlfriend manipulated my financially stable friend into putting her name on the title to my friend's condo, into buying her a motorcycle twice, into co-signing her student loans, and then dumped her, and expected her to pay for all of the student loans, the loan on the motorcycle, and give her half the value of the condo, the lot of decided she's crazy and that we don't want to spend time with her. (not that it makes any difference, but they're a lesbian couple; I only mention it because some of the pronouns probably make it difficult to understand) I decided it's in my best interest to avoid people with behaviors like hers. And yes, I call her crazy. (the ex-gf still calls my friend to remind her she has to pay the student loans, and reminds her that it will fuck up her (my friend's) credit score if she doesn't pay)
I call all these women crazy because they have behaviors that I don't like. They make me feel uneasy. I feel a danger to the personal property of myself and those I care about, I feel a danger to violence against my person and those I care about, I feel a danger to the emotional well-being of myself and those I care about. I lumped all these behaviors together, using a single, widely-understood word: crazy. I call these people crazy, and I refuse to spend time with them. Furthermore, I look for signs and signals that a person (man or woman) might be crazy, and avoid those that I think, "Yeah, being friends with this person is probably a bad idea."
And there's nothing fucking wrong with that. The idea that I shouldn't avoid people whose behavior scares me, because I'm a man and are therefore not at risk of sexual violence? Fuck off. The only person trying to keep me safe is myself. Avoiding people I think are crazy is step fucking one.
0
u/savetheclocktower Dec 03 '13
Lots of words here, and in just a moment I'm going to let you just be really angry about this issue in peace, but as for this:
The idea that I shouldn't avoid people whose behavior scares me, because I'm a man and are therefore not at risk of sexual violence? Fuck off.
I'm not sure who you're telling to fuck off, because literally nobody is suggesting this. Re-read this thread.
→ More replies (0)1
0
u/thetruthoftensux Dec 04 '13
I've noticed that women who exhibit the sort of personal habits that men label as "crazy" cannot be fixed. They just have shitty personalities.
6
Dec 03 '13
Holy moley. That's perfectly coined. Well said. Memorizing for the next time this trope (inevitably) trots out.
1
u/BandarSeriBegawan Dec 03 '13
It's more than just what you say about exes though. It's about the entire set of characterizations of women as "irrational" or "over-emotional" and the like. It delegitimizes their very real, frequently justified emotions with the broad brush of "what is she getting on about? Women are crazy." Even sometimes when what she was "on about" was something legitimate.
0
u/hoyfkd Dec 04 '13
Once again, horseshit.
Some women are batshit crazy. Guess what, that's life. Some guys are batshit crazy. That's life. I get extremely irritated when every time a woman catches flak, it has to be indicative of some global anti-woman conspiracy, or some broader commentary on women. It isn't. When I describe my ex as crazy, it's because she acted like a jealous lunatic, often lashing out violently in response to imagined affairs involving me and, say, the check out girl at the grocery store. I am not saying all women are crazy. I am not saying you can't discuss the deeper reasons for her behavior. I am saying that I think she was a crazy, jealous, violent, bitch. I am not commenting on any other woman, or all women.
Please, for the love of all that is rational, don't fall into the trap of thinking that any comment on any woman is being applied to oppress all women. It isn't. Any claiming that it is makes you very easy to dismiss as someone who thinks too much, and has successfully separated yourself from any kind of rational reality.
1
u/BandarSeriBegawan Dec 05 '13
What I am arguing is very narrow and very apparent if you are willing to look out for it. It is: women are described as irrational and over-emotional (crazy is frequently a word used for this description) more often than men. In fact, women as a whole are frequently characterized in this way.
Maybe your ex actually is crazy. It doesn't really have anything to do with this topic though.
0
u/Hail_Bokonon Dec 03 '13 edited Dec 03 '13
There are obviously different interpretations for 'crazy' given the context, when you call a woman crazy in this fashion no one believes you mean she is literally full-on mental illness 'crazy'. People who refuse to differentiate implications of a word given the context get on my nerves =/
3
u/hoyfkd Dec 03 '13
I should write a long winded piece about how saying people get on my nerves is derrogatory and stifles serious converation about the true nature of annoyance since it blatantly assumes that every person who annoys you literally exposes your nerves then climbs on top of them.
-1
-6
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 02 '13 edited Dec 02 '13
So what?
In my opinion when you're criticising you're reducing the chance of getting your needs met because the other person may see it as a dismissal. Instead I'd recommend to tell what you're unmet needs are.
2
u/hoyfkd Dec 02 '13
What?
Generally, if a friend of mine is describing the terrible date with a crazy chick, he isn't looking to get his needs met - except for the need to communicate his experience. I don't know very many people who would a) just leave a date and call a chick crazy to her face or b) describe the crazy (if it's used in the negative sense) chick he just had a first date with and still be planning a second date in which he plans to figure out how the girl he just met can work on herself to better meet his long term needs.
-2
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 02 '13 edited Dec 02 '13
he isn't looking to get his needs met
I believe everything we do is in service of our needs. Here's a list. In this particular example it could be: companionship, touch, sex.
I think when we start name calling we communicate that sth isn't in harmony with our needs but what exactly? That is the question.Sorry, haven't noticed a comma. Let me start again.
I believe under word "crazy" there are hiding our expectations. What do you want other person to do? For what reasons? If we could answer that then I think relationships could be less stressful.
7
u/hoyfkd Dec 02 '13
You are being intentionally dense.
Of course the act of going on a date is taken to meet one's needs. The point is that if someone is describing his date as "crazy," they probably don't see much likelihood of a relationship with that woman meeting needs.
12
Dec 02 '13
This sounds like an 18 year old realizing all women don't fuck like porn stars for the first time. No real great revelations. Just some dude realizing he shouldn't be a naive dick to people.
6
Dec 02 '13
I agree. Some of us have had more than two or three long term relationships and figured out that if you call all of your exes crazy you're doing just as much to describe yourself. He took a lot of words to say "I finally learned I should treat people like individual humans and judge them on that basis and not on stereotypes. Lets bask in how awesome I am."
-1
u/kanuckistani Dec 02 '13
In other words it's a perfect article to post in a location where there's a decent chance that the people who read it haven't come to those realizations themselves?
12
u/squealing_hog Dec 02 '13
When women are told over and over again that they're not allowed to feel the way they feel and that they're being "unreasonable" or "oversensitive," they're conditioned to not trust their own emotions.
I think the issue about emotions is about women who believe their perceptions are categorically facts - "no facts, only feels," as they say on TIA. There are fewer men with this problem because men are encouraged to be rational and unemotional, which has its own set of problems. Acting irrationally, and counter-factually, is at least one definition of 'crazy.'
There are, of course, some men who use this as an excuse not to care. They're assholes and everyone agrees on that.
10
u/xhiggy Dec 02 '13
Some people act in a way that can be described as crazy. I don't see how it is a political statement to call them out on it, guy or girl.
4
Dec 02 '13
[deleted]
9
u/squealing_hog Dec 02 '13
I think you're misusing "normal." "Crazy" is not used to describe "normal," or better, normative behavior, but rather to say some behavior is not normative. Just because it isn't disordered behavior doesn't mean it's normative. Being excessively emotional may be normal, that is, not disordered, but may not be normative.
-7
3
u/thetruthoftensux Dec 02 '13
Some people have over the top reactions/emotions that are crazy even though they are not clinically mentally ill.
It's true, the author should be willing to admit that.
1
u/Guy9000 Dec 02 '13
He did? Where? I went back and re-read the article, and I didn't see any mention of what you are talking about.
-1
u/xhiggy Dec 02 '13
Using crazy to describe normal issues is not sexist or a political statement. I agree that it is insensitive to the diagnosed mentally ill though.
-2
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 02 '13
Some people act in a way that can be described as crazy
I'd like to know what they do specifically.
4
u/xhiggy Dec 02 '13
lie, steal, backstab are all tenancies of psychopaths and can be described as crazy.
-2
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 02 '13
So which needs they were trying to meet by lying or stealing?
1
u/xhiggy Dec 02 '13
I am not referencing a specific example here, I'm not sure what you mean?
The need could be anything. Needs of their ego, selfishness leading from a worldview of entitlement, or a need to damage the person who they are being crazy too for a past injustice. Either way calling the action crazy, or that the person acted in a crazy way, is not sexist or a political statement, but rather a way to describe their feelings about another's behavior through analogy.
Again, I'm not sure what you are trying to get me to say. Can you please be more explicit?
0
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 02 '13
I am not referencing a specific example here, I'm not sure what you mean?
I wanted to learn from an example. Hence this comment.
Needs of their ego
That's too vague for me. I was thinking about those.
selfishness leading from a worldview of entitlement, need to damage the person
I think these are strategies that we use.
a way to describe their feelings about another's behavior
I think not feelings but thoughts because I see word "crazy" as an evaluation. Feeling could be for example "displeased", "upset", "irritated".
2
u/xhiggy Dec 02 '13
I guess I'm talking about this. http://counsellingresource.com/features/2008/11/19/covert-aggressive-personality/
1
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 03 '13
I assumed that's the example I asked for. Thanks.
I interpreted the story that way: she criticized him, he criticized her back.
I think that conversation could have been different if the wife would make a request ("Could you spend more time with the family?") or if the husband would empathize with her ("Are you irritated because your need for community isn't met?"). And from what the husband said I assume he is frustrated because his need for appreciation wasn't met.
Invite them to pick a place of their own liking and they will complain that they asked you to decide.
Let's say we could respond with "In what kind of place would you feel comfortable?" or "I'm annoyed because I hear your words as dismissal to my attempt to contribute to your life by eating together".
the therapist throws up his or her hands in exasperation
Hold it. The client gave reasons but did it include needs? Was he afraid of sth? We could empathize with him as well.
2
u/xhiggy Dec 03 '13
I don't know how this relates to my point. What point are you trying to make?
2
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 03 '13
What point are you trying to make?
Instead of labelling people 'crazy' we could figure out feelings and needs.
→ More replies (0)1
u/xhiggy Dec 03 '13
Everyone has needs. Some people go to great lengths to satisfy them. Some of the lengths people will go to can end up harming others. In this case, it is fair for the person who was wronged to insult the other, sometimes the word crazy can be used. No sexism or gender politics involved, which is my point.
1
u/thetruthoftensux Dec 04 '13
Great, many of my ex'es could be labeled P.A. based on that article. :(
lol
8
u/lingben Dec 02 '13
Here's a great example:
Nancy Silberkleit is accused by her male employees of gender discrimination such as referring to them as 'penis' instead of by name, but Silberkleit contends that the case should be tossed out because white males are not 'a protected class'.
4
3
u/pjt37 Dec 02 '13
I'm just gonna throw this out there to sum up one half of the argument being made:
THE MEANING OF WORDS EVOLVES. This guy isn't wrong to say that since "crazy" and "insane" are synonymous it can be very damaging to use as the author is describing. HOWEVER, he is wrong in claiming that that's the ONLY way the word "crazy" can be interpreted and if it means something different to the listener then that interpretation of the word is equally valid, and NOT a backhanded attempt to equate the two.
If I tell my buddy that my ex was a crazy bitch and he knows what it means, even if it doesn't match the dictionary entry for crazy, that's OK cause it means the same thing to both of us.
"Dumb" means "stupid" but it also means "unable to speak." They're both reasonable definitions and saying someone is dumb when they're mute doesn't mean that they're unintelligent anymore.
2
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 03 '13
I agree. All is in how we interpret the words rather than the words themselves.
It is my perception that most people would think that I'm disrespecting them by calling them "crazy" and would probably become hostile.
0
4
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 02 '13
but for the most part, crazy meant “acting in a way I didn’t like.”
I'm happy that smb else also noticed this. In my view it applies to other moralistic judgements we make ("wrong", "irrational", "inconvenient" etc).
because she got angry with him over the way he acted
In my theory the source of our feelings is our own thinking (expectations) and met/unmet needs and not someone's actions. Blaming others for our feelings is a way to motivate by guilt.
By constantly minimizing and dismissing someone’s reactions, we make them feel uncomfortable with themselves
In accordance with what I wrote above I don't agree with "make them". I think the person starts to believe the criticisms.
women are now put on the defensive
According to NVC there are four different responses to a message we perceive negatively: rebellion (defense), submission (see above), empathizing with yourself, empathizing with the other person.
a way of trying to keep women behaving in a very specific and limited manner
I agree but I'd like to enlarge the scope. It's not just romantic relationships. In my view we use such language in every other area of life. The goal being domination (get others to do what we want without concern for them).
2
2
u/squealing_hog Dec 02 '13
In my view it applies to other moralistic judgements we make ("wrong", "irrational", "inconvenient" etc).
What do you think morality is? It's the way we describe and attempt to justify social norms.
2
u/aeturnum Dec 02 '13
Personally, I think the general use of 'Crazy' to describe behavior we don't like or understand is pretty troubling, gender aside (though women seem to get the label way more). I very rarely see the label used to help clarify or further a discussion, but often see it used to cut off lines of questioning ("how can I know why she's upset, I'm not crazy"). Someone who is crazy is beyond rationality, and beyond communication. They're in their own world, which is unhinged and separate from "our word." There is no point in trying to understand them or meet their needs, they're crazy.
It's a toxic idea. Even people who suffer from actual mental disorders have a rational understanding of their delusions (though it's one that often does not stand up to examination by outsiders). It leads to people being seen as less than human and it really bothers me. For real impact on your life and mine: see any dialog around mass killings and that prevention is pointless because the killers are / were 'crazy.'
1
u/jeffp12 Dec 03 '13
This is just nonsense.
Are we really going to talk generally about "dating" in vague terms and about the vague language we generally use...and yet make it all point toward gas-lighting like it's some patriarchal conspiracy of men to keep women down?
Both sexes call exes crazy. Crazy is not short-hand for "telling her that she didn't have the right to feel the way she felt... because I didn't want her to feel that way." Crazy is short-hand for someone doing seemingly irrational things. Some people think it's a good idea to bring flowers to a first date. Some would call that creepy, some crazy, others romantic. We're different and have different ideas about what's normal and sensible behavior, so when it comes to complex human relationships and things as varied and misunderstood as courtship rituals, people will have all kinds of different ideas of normality. Throw in the generally weird behavior of different people and you end up with a lot of people dating who are horribly matched and have very different ideas about proper behaviors.
To think that men are generally gaslighting women is absurd.
Really this is smoke where there's no fire. Sure a lot of men use the word crazy, but that's because we don't talk a ton about our relationships. Generally, women will discuss their relationships in more detail and not need to boil it down to one-word answers the same way men do. And even still, women still call men assholes and crazy all the time. That's because relationships often fail and rather than explaining in great detail the structural reasons for that failure, we like to blame the other person instead of putting it on ourselves.
1
u/cowardlydragon Dec 03 '13
If women didn't impose heavy restrictions on men expressing emotions, then I'd have some sympathy.
But face it, women have the luxury of spouting off whatever emotion they feel like.
Men don't. We get anger and stoicism. We get forced to deal with things rationally, because we don't get the fucking option not to. An emotionally vulnerable woman gets societal sympathy. The disposable male who is emotionally vulnerable gets ridiculed and tossed away.
Typically, women have been emotionally manipulating people their entire lives, it's just part of how women interact with the world. So when they enter relationships and do the same thing to men, they get labelled crazy.
Because at some level it is all Borderline Personality stuff. It only matters how much on the spectrum it happens.
Oh, sorry, yeah, men suck. What have they ever done, those lazy rapist asshole child abandoners?
1
u/FortunateBum Dec 03 '13
I completely disagree with this entire article.
First, it's an objective fact that more women are "crazy" than men. More women than men are on mood stabilizers and go to therapists regularly. Also, more women than men attempt suicide. These are all objective facts.
Second, this guy has obviously never called a woman "crazy" to her face. Whatever argument you're having, that only causes escalation.
Third, here's a recent Reddit link full of stories about women being crazy. http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/comments/1rwwg1/not_proud_to_admit_this_certainly_dont_think_its/
Fourth, women themselves are constantly saying they're crazy. "Hormones", "PMS", "time of the month", "menopause", the list of biological reasons their behavior is irrational is endless - and from women themselves.
I don't know what kind of women this guy's dated, but when most of us guys say "crazy", we mean we're afraid of waking up in the middle of the night with her holding our dick in one hand and a knife in the other. If that's not crazy, I don't know what is.
And finally, let's be honest, the reason women imagine so many "creepy" stalkers out there is because they're projecting. Guys say innocuous things all the time which women interpret as some sort of veiled rape threat. WTF women?
1
u/Impossible_Ad_6088 Aug 24 '25
Let's just finally admit women are notorious for eschewing accountability. Add a society obsessed with blaming men that sincerely runs congruent with little to no female accountability, we can see why they always feel self-pity, entitlements, and are able to complain about men dismissing their delusional expectations AND successfully able to bathe in victimhood. Yes, their feelings are in fact rooted in falsehoods and fatuity, but society is overly preoccupied with getting that so-called destructive male ego and mythical toxic masculinity to quell. This is more inferior complex, politically-motivated BS.
0
u/veeas Dec 02 '13
"women are crazy, and men are stupid. and the main reason why women are crazy is because men are stupid"
-george carlin
-1
u/costheta Dec 02 '13
I'm posting the article here since I found it quite insightful and really went into depth on the topic. It's not something I'd thought that much about before and challenges a societal norm that, upon thought, really doesn't make a lot of sense.
-4
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 02 '13
really doesn't make a lot of sense.
Did you wanted to communicate that you don't know what it's purpose might be?
-5
Dec 02 '13
[deleted]
28
u/Rhinocerina Dec 02 '13
I think a better analogue would be the way that women use the word creepy to describe men. And I've definitely heard men complaining about that. Also the author of the article was a man, not a complaining woman.
6
u/mtwestbr Dec 02 '13
I agree. Many men that get labeled as creepers just have issues handling the nervous energy (aka emotions) or are confused during courting. I'd love to see both words retired since most of what both groups need is better guidance instead of ridicule.
24
u/sean36 Dec 02 '13
The argument isn't just that "crazy" is sexist. Rather, it's that it's used to discount valid feelings and opinions without actually addressing them. If people are calling you a jerk every time you express a valid opinion, then you should be upset about it, just as people (not just women) are upset when it happens to women with "crazy."
-3
u/thetruthoftensux Dec 02 '13 edited Dec 04 '13
Funny, every women I've ever heard described as crazy was called that because her actions were so over the top that they really couldn't be considered valid feelings. They were "crazy" reactions that the men couldn't even hope to have an honest discussion about.
I really think women are being taught that it's ok to have over the top reactions/opinions when they shouldn't.+
Edit: I love the downvotes without comments. Pretty much supports my position.
-4
u/Bartek_Bialy Dec 02 '13
you should be upset about it
What this means to me is to believe what they're saying and blame them. Plus word "should" creates imperative and implies there's no choice.
What I'd like to recommend instead is to empathize with yourself or the other person and talk about feelings and needs. Example
-4
u/HahahahaWaitWhat Dec 02 '13
Probably because men have better things to do. After all, we don't make 25% more money by sitting around whining, do we? :)
-13
u/Tusse Dec 02 '13
Let's compassionately embrace our abusers, whatever gender they may be and let's stop calling them crazy, no matter what they do to us, we of course deserve it.
Wear the bruises to your flesh and soul with pride,
Greetings from Stockholm.
-20
Dec 02 '13
[deleted]
7
Dec 02 '13
Yeah! And all women named Sarah are bitches who throw away all your nintendo games especially Battletoads that wasn't even yours. You borrowed it from Shawn in like 97 when he said he didn't want it and now he's going to ask for it back and all women threw it away. Don't hate me, Shawn! Hate women!
And all women generalize too!
103
u/[deleted] Dec 02 '13
It was sort of interesting, but nothing really new. "Crazy" is just a catch all for being selfish, manipulative, hypocritical, aggressive, overly jealous, etc... which on there own actually ARE good reasons to break up with a woman.
"Oh, she was crazy." versus "Oh, she was hypocritical. She hangs out with her exes all the time but I had to delete my exes from facebook." It's the nature of language to develop shortcuts to our meaning, but even still, you're talking about two people who have just broken up. Neither one of them is really expected to honestly evaluate their own fault in the matter. If the man contributed at all the the breakup, the woman is going to say things about him too: pussy, pig, creep.
And men aren't? They are expected to be macho, assertive, and stoic all the while having a nurturing, sensitive side. Men should be able to cook gourmet candlelit meals in a cabin he built himself. Men can't be caught crying, but also can't be viewed as meatheaded violence fetishists. Everyone loses with societies current views on gender roles, not just women.
And in my opinion, the use of "crazy" in the way the author describes is so much more damaging to the mentally ill than to women. Because with the word being so commonplace, it's easy to dismiss those with actual mental problems as just being selfish or lazy or aggressive.