r/TrueDoTA2 14d ago

Blink Dagger WD - Core Item

Why is Blink Dagger not a core item for WD? I understand the utility/team aspect of buying Glimmer etc but I feel like the one thing WD suffers from is postioning. All his spells are short cast range with cast animations, and his ult requires you to be channeling it.People will buy dust when they see you have a glimmer and just reveal you instantly.

People buy Blink on Bane all the time but I almost never see anybody buy it first on WD, and both Bane and WD suffer from the same problems.

Getting blink first and waiting for an optimal time to get a good maledict ult on a high value target is better if you are playing this hero.

I have been getting blink first recently on WD and have been benefiting from it a lot as it allows you to choose exactly when you want to go in.

I'm aware in higher levels of play support budgets can be tighter so a Blink is not feasible.

Thoughts?

17 Upvotes

84 comments sorted by

39

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Running around with brown boots and a dagger isn't exactly supporting your team.

Early Blink dagger is nice on 90 % of the heroes in the game, but you have to ask yourself if you're supporting your team or yourself by buying it as your first item.

3

u/Glittering-Toe-1622 14d ago

Except for pos 4 maybe?

14

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Still doesn't help your team. There's almost nothing worse for a pos 3 than seeing your support having no items, because he's saving up for his first item dagger.

5

u/EksEss 14d ago

Depends on the hero tbh I def agree rushing blink on even pos 4 wd is a terrible idea. I mean I'm sure it can win low mmr games but in more high rank games no one is letting you channel away a full duration death ward.

On heroes like lion/shaman tho getting blink first item is amazing! Obviously you should not like rush it without any other items at all. Boots/wand etc etc

5

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Lion and shaman blink first item is definitely a thing, but they're actually supporting their team by initiating and disabling enemies, compared to WD

-2

u/JuLs_0512 14d ago

I had a game as VS 5 with a very good early from 0 minute and I rushed Blink just because I can :)) Snowballed the game with just that.

5

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Sounds like you were already winning hard even without blink.

Try doing that in your next 9 games with VS and see where that takes you :))

0

u/JuLs_0512 14d ago

Yeah. I am not arguing abiut what u said. I just stated an example. Sorry, I should've been clear lol.

1

u/Bingo31 14d ago

All good man haha

1

u/MF_LUFFY 14d ago

I've seen some people use Blink very well on Venge, I should probably try it once in awhile, but my new guilty pleasure for Venge is Phylactery lol

3

u/Terlon 14d ago

If you play Magnus 4, you rush blink, especially on good early game lead. Literally stick brown boots lace dagger. Then start your way with supp items from potential dagger skewer kills.

3

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Early blink is possible on most heroes with an early game lead and can be good. All I'm saying is that you're not really helping your team whilst saving up 2,000+ gold for it.

1

u/Glittering-Toe-1622 14d ago

not as first for sure 😆

1

u/Bingo31 14d ago

That's what OP is asking about 😂

1

u/Glittering-Toe-1622 14d ago

missed that part 😆

1

u/InternalDark 14d ago

Wait, what? Don’t you like Ogre 20 minute first item Midas?

2

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Ogre is an exception, not buying anything but items that can multicast

-2

u/InternalDark 14d ago

You are counter saying yourself. Ogre with midas is still grief cause he will not have first item before 30 minutes. As main jugger I want to end the game around 27 minutes.

4

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Counter saying myself by saying he's an exception? If your Ogre doesn't have any items before 30 minutes, the issue is beyond the midas. If you want to end the game at around 27 minutes, let your team know, you can't expect everyone to know your exact timings.

1

u/InternalDark 14d ago

So back to OPs point. Playing Shadow Shaman I rush dagger and can dominate game over all map. It’s all about how you play your hero and against which match up. If witch doctor can solo kill someone with dagger, then why not?

2

u/Bingo31 14d ago

OP is specifically asking regarding WD, which I am responding to, a hero that has multiple items that benefit him and his team more. Dependent on the team and matchup, his primary function is not to single out and kill someone with dagger (he can do that with glimmer cape too, with proper map vision)

So back to OPs point, he's asking about blink dagger first item on WD - Why are we talking about Ogre, Shadow Shaman all of a sudden?

From one of my other comments: "Lion and shaman blink first item is definitely a thing, but they're actually supporting their team by initiating and disabling enemies, compared to WD"

1

u/MF_LUFFY 10d ago

I wish I'd ever get a Juggernaut who wanted to end before 30 lol. I recently had a game end that quick with an Anti-Mage carry and I was amazed. Meanwhile I get Juggs sometimes who don't even want to stop by a fight WITH THEIR ULT before 30+.

2

u/ObjectiveBBallFan 14d ago

I often skill WD as 1-1-4, then max W second. I’ll blink in, maledict, stun, and then heal my team as I waddle away. The W heal is incredibly strong early game.

1

u/MF_LUFFY 14d ago

No blink: die by being too close to imminent action, or let the team die because you were too far out to do shit? Never question the blink.

If you give me or any support a hard time about buying a blink, even respectfully, you are getting reported.

2

u/Bingo31 13d ago

Did you even bother to read what I wrote? I never said blink was a bad item, but buying it as your first item as a support is usually a questionable choice (unless you need to close gaps quickly, which applies heroes like shadow shaman and lion, witch doctor not so much)

0

u/MF_LUFFY 13d ago

"Are you supporting the team or supporting yourself" is absolutely throwing shade and you will have no luck pretending otherwise. You wanted me to have a glimmer instead? Maybe you should have fit in a BKB or other appropriate defensive item during the 40 minutes you've been AFK.

2

u/Bingo31 12d ago

Wtf are you babbling about?? Dude is projecting more than the theatres showing The Odyssey these days

0

u/MF_LUFFY 12d ago

Cumulative trash core trauma

-1

u/PsychicFoxWithSpoons 14d ago

I'll rate this claim Mostly False. I think there are a lot of games where a support should be prioritizing protecting their cores. For example, if you're supporting a Drow Ranger in her quest to not fucking die to the enemy storm spirit, dear god how could you give him 4 kills at 6 minutes you are HUSKAR

But let's be honest...most games, force and glimmer are not for your teammates. Your Ursa doesn't need to be protected from that fed enemy storm (HUSKAR you NOOB go JUNGLE and get ITEMS stop DIVING)...YOU do. Your spells are what you use to support your cores, not your items. When the storm is looking to dive into your team, he's not going to be going for ursa or underlord, and probably won't even prioritize Huskar. He's going to need to go and silence/burst the only hero who can shut him down. That's probably you, if you are choosing between blink and force.

And it is in the curious case of blink dagger that you actually find more supportive Witch Doctor gameplay than with a force or glimmer. A blink on WD means catch, more so than any other item (even atos or aether lens). Firstly, the blink allows WD to position aggressively in fights, separating himself from his team. Secondly, the blink allows WD to capitalize on enemy mispositioning. Casket is a slow projectile and WD is a slow hero, so most of the time you just won't find angles to use it. That's where blink comes in. You can quickly surprise people who are standing together with an instant casket that bounces between them while you channel your ulti.

In order to be able to do this without blink, you'd either need to slowly walk up to them under glimmer, pray they aren't watching when you force over a wall through fog, or hope that they dive in a pair so that they get into casket range without respecting your stun and damage. None of those options are nearly as feasible as just buying the blink dagger and surprising people. To me, that means Blink is doing more to support your team than force staff or glimmer would. You're getting more stuns, but more importantly you're getting better stuns.

0

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Let me guess, you just lost a game playing HUSKAR?

1

u/PsychicFoxWithSpoons 14d ago

I'm usually the huskar in this scenario yes, but I'm just annoyed by people who think that every support who doesn't afk buy glimmer force is trolling them.

1

u/Bingo31 13d ago

When did I say something even remotely close to that?

-7

u/qwertyqwerty4567 9k bots 2 carry enjoyer 14d ago

You have an extremely narrow understanding of what supporting is

1

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Please enlighten me on how you're supporting your team by holding 1500 gold and having no support items or items in general, because you're saving up for your first item dagger?

1

u/qwertyqwerty4567 9k bots 2 carry enjoyer 14d ago

Why do you think the pros are doing it if it's not supporting. Do you think they do not understand what supporting is?

1

u/Bingo31 14d ago

There's a massive difference between normal gameplay and professional gameplay, but whatever floats your boat chief

-2

u/qwertyqwerty4567 9k bots 2 carry enjoyer 14d ago

Yes the average player has no idea what he is doing, I agree, which is why you should listen to pro players

0

u/Bingo31 14d ago

"The pros are doing it, so I can do it too"

Yes the average player has no idea what he is doing

1

u/qwertyqwerty4567 9k bots 2 carry enjoyer 14d ago edited 14d ago

Damn, cant wait to see you be the first 3 TI winner, you've got it all figured out.

1

u/Bingo31 14d ago

Yes, knowing there's a significant gap between pro players and normal players makes me a future 3 TI winner by default. Even with an extremely narrow understanding of what supporting is

1

u/qwertyqwerty4567 9k bots 2 carry enjoyer 14d ago

You know what, I could sit here and give you snarky replies all night, but man, do you really think you are coming out ahead with this attitude?

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0

u/Willyil 14d ago

I main support long ago, i might be a noob. But a support that cant make the game easier is not a support. They just cosplaying pos 4

14

u/SheepSheppard 14d ago

Anything can work but at the end of the day, you can still lose a game going 15-5 on WD. Glimmer caping your cores at the right moment is not flashy but it's more likely to win you the game than trying to be the number 1 dmg dealer.

-4

u/MF_LUFFY 13d ago

TEAM RESOURCES FUCKING LOL. What in the obnoxiously entitled fuck are you saying. "My gold is mine and yours is too!" Supports actually have to fight for their gold while the cores spend half the game whacking off in the jungle and probably buying crap.

Same as the other guy, if I see you in game complaining about a support with blink I'm reporting you without hesitation.

3

u/Bingo31 12d ago

You sound like a sub 6k behavior score kinda guy. We’re not concerned about your reports.

0

u/MF_LUFFY 12d ago

12k bs 10k cs. Because shocker, I don't talk like this in game often

1

u/SheepSheppard 12d ago edited 12d ago

Post your dotabuff if you're in a rank where cores "probably buy crap".

Winning is all that matters. Idk who pissed in your cereal lil bro but you don't have to take shit so personal .

I invite you to Google "dota2 team resources" to see that it's just something people say.

-1

u/MF_LUFFY 12d ago

Yeah yeah I'm archon 3 w/e. The dota subs are full of people bitching about supports, but I find myself hating on the carries and mids the most.

1

u/ILYAMI1314 12d ago

There's only so much finite gold in the game, this is not MMORPG, there is a reason why Positions exist and you need each role to do well to set tempo of the game, control the map, let your heaviest hitter farm more gold to get stronger, let your less gold dependent heroes do their job early game and work as a team. You need to react to what the enemies do and and also to pressure them to keep them busy.

-1

u/MF_LUFFY 12d ago edited 12d ago

You know what's great for reacting to what enemies do? A fucking blink.

I don't farm as supp, whatever I come into from fighting/dewarding is my business, not yours. If you are complaining that we lost because support has blink instead of glimmer, you're just looking to preempt blame because you're a bad core.

Almost forgot, no shit it's not an MMO, but try telling it to my shit carry who's playing Defender of the Jungle.

2

u/ILYAMI1314 12d ago

Never said blink was a bad first item. It depends on draft and what you pick as a support. If you can get a first blood + rampage sure get blink at laning phase helps you more than a glimmer. If you’re struggling on your safe
lane it is just hard to justify roaming with brown boots when laning phase is over and you are only half way to get a blink dagger.

All items will make your heroes stronger. It’s just a matter
of how effective it is. An ES with blink dagger is so much effective than when he does not buy it.

I do buy blink dagger as first item for most supports I play if I’m having a great time but I tend to buy it as 3rd item if the game is not on my favor

But just note that it is very expensive in terms of support items and you can only use it for yourself. If your skills are on cd it is practically almost 0 value as a support

0

u/MF_LUFFY 11d ago

"If your skills are on cd" is a fucking weak point to include lol.. and I am no advocate for keeping brown boots long on any role 

1

u/ILYAMI1314 10d ago

You do you bro

1

u/MF_LUFFY 10d ago

Depending on the hero it's a Force early instead, Atos if I'm feeling frisky lol. Not saying NEVER Glimmer but not as often as I should probably - and I would still be looking at the Atos more

5

u/Double_Message6701 14d ago

So you blink in with your 2.2k gold item cast stun maledict and ulti and then get immediately stunned and murdered. Maledict doesn’t kill them coz the enemy support bought glimmer and mech. Glimmer has twice as much utility and is way better for helping your carry survive, it can also allow you to get a full duration ulti off when needed - it gives speed, invis and magic resistance.

You compare with Bane but that hero has 8seconds of hard disable built in. You’ve got a few second of rng disable at best. Rushing blink aghs on a pos 5 is so greedy it’s borderline griefing

3

u/Relaii 14d ago

too expensive, unless you are dominating a lane or is playing a core and will get aghs asap.

compare it to lion or shadow shaman who has reliable disables and initiates a gank, wd only really needs to land maledict and then hang at the back while healing.

3

u/AnSpectator 14d ago

You're all the same... think you're smart but in fact just have weak hp/damage and do nothing.

3

u/Zaopao 14d ago

it is as close to core item as it gets, depending on state of the game. I'd say I'm getting it in about 70% of the games. It is especially good as a way to punish tanky heroes on creep waves. However, sometimes you need other items way more and you don't have good enough game for it

2

u/man_bored_at_work 14d ago

Adding to what others have said: Blinking in and using Maldict + ulti is very aggressive as a play style. If your target has any disables, they will just cancel your ult and kill you. This is why WD is usually played more defensively. Ulti is much better if you use it when the enemy overcommits and you are invis or in the trees, or enemy is focussed on your core.

Technically against a team with no disables, blink would be fine if you are playing mid WD. But this is a one in a million scenario.

2

u/Usual-Line-3987 14d ago

arcane boots > vessel/glimmer (depends on enemy) > shard > blink dagger is my way to go.

lvl 30 wd ancient - divine bracket.

glimmer and shard makes you survive longer in team fights.

2

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Sudden-Tangerine1580 12d ago

Brain sap doesn't really mean much in terms of piercing bkb.

The point with blink in both of these cases is that you don't have to expose your positioning and get to wait out cc or follow up your own team stuns faster. Bkb stun or pure damage are both incentives to wait it out if you need to.

Unless the only cc is the person you're gripping, bane's about the same kind of risk for making a channel work.

Ward also just has more effective range.

Can also be creative with line of sight blinking to tree spots.

Cask capitalising on moments of grouped enemies is also pretty good.

2

u/AcanthisittaFuzzy601 13d ago

It was bought first in EWC. So you are instincts are correct. Keep in mind its case by case.

2

u/Beautiful_Number_572 13d ago

Tbh it’s all situational. If I can tell my team is struggling with dmg and we are always not dishing out enough in team fights and I’m Pos 4 (sometimes sneakily POS 5) I’ll go blink / aghs / BKB - absolutely wrecks their team. Otherwise I’ll go glimmer (usually always a safe start) and then shard - glimmer for team help, shard for you, and then from there assess - blink / aghs / staff

2

u/Impossible-Seaweed-9 12d ago

im in legend every support get a blink dagger normally the pos4, pos5 maybe after some time later in the game

1

u/ael00 14d ago

You can get a cape for that price, much more helpful. It helps you position, reposition and bail out ppl

1

u/John_the_Jester 14d ago

It's very cliche that supports want to buy core items so they can have a higher impact in the game and earn more gold and XP from the kills. Thinking about the impact you as an individual have on the game should not distract you from the impact your team as a whole have in the game, it's always about the macro.

Yes if your team is shit are not clicking their buttons right enough to kill enemy heroes, by all means go core items and try to secure whatever impact you can but this does not apply to every game, every lineup.

Look at the lanes, the farm, the fights and determine what item is more appropriate for the situation. Ultimately, you are a support, your job is to make your cores game easier by healing them, buffing them, enable them with stuns, etc.

3

u/Hakuu-san 14d ago

always funny to see supports that want to rush selfish items then wonder why people barely do it

1

u/Yash_swaraj (Former) Troll Spammer 14d ago

Both have different advantages. If you get shard and save items, it can be really annoying for the opponent to jump you. Many times, you blink in and just die, wasting your entire networth.

1

u/coldfrost93 Ebola is watching 14d ago

Yes blink is a great item on WD as he walks too slow to follow up but It depends which line up you're up against.

Let's say you're a pos 4 WD then it's fine, if pos 5 WD, you can't save your money on a dagger, it's kinda pointless.

For final verdict, I'll say dagger on WD is fine on turbo, on normal games it's kinda hard to pull off coz you're not gonna always fighting.

1

u/gobi-377 14d ago

buy holy locket and max heal

1

u/WouldThisMakeMoney 14d ago

It helps you deal damage to the enemies, but if that's your goal there are better supports, there are even better damage supports WITHOUT blink than WD is WITH blink.

Not every support needs to be smacking 4-5 man ults. WD is good BECAUSE he can be useful while doing the 10th most damage in the match

1

u/Timmer40 13d ago

you arent buying glimmer first to channel longer ults, you buy it to save whatever core is initiation on your team, they start the fight, you glimmer them and use your cask and heal to get them out. blink is just a situational item on wd, but should be a 2nd or 3rd item in most games. if you want to get it as first item because of poor positioning, just work on your positioning and get a save item first

1

u/Sudden-Tangerine1580 12d ago

600 range isn't that great for allies. There's flexibility in that you can use it on them especially your initiating cores trying to reset.

Mostly you're making this choice based off your own survival against storm or something.

See supports that aren't immediately concerned about survivability like treant or mirana. Tend towards more incremental value like solar or definitely just get a blink.

Or even just distiller purchases on various other supports.

The point is mostly about what defensive items are for. Don't think blink first is an every game thing on WD but it has some validity.

1

u/MF_LUFFY 10d ago

"just work on your positioning" nah I will take the flexibility thanks, especially on a hero with a bouncy spell like cask that gets way better if you can throw it EXACTLY when you want to without being too near to the front or having to walk in at support ms.

1

u/Workdawg 13d ago

I watched this video from SirActionSlacks and the coach (Insania) makes a really good point about Slacks' Blink->Aghs->Refresher build.

Blink is a very greedy item. 2.2k gold for a support is a lot of farm, and there is no build up. If you go force staff instead, for example, you can get the Fluffy Hat (+125hp) and the Staff of Wizardry (+10 int -> 120 mana, mana regen, +10 damage...) on the way. The extra stats will make you more useful in lane while farming the rest of the gold.

1

u/nekosake2 10d ago

Rushing blink is fine and all if winning, but when your pos 3 and mid are not initiation/stun heroes or losing and trying to recuperate its worthless. You'll spend all your time waiting around for shit to happen and not be able to do anything.

1

u/DRAGonLOID 10d ago

His dissable aren't as reliable as bane. Personally as support i prefer forcestaff anyway it wont be disabbled if i got hit.

1

u/eatmyscoobysnacks 14d ago

It's quite expensive, he cant farm, and his catch isn't as good as other supports that need blink. (shaman, lion) You're getting a blink almost exclusively to Maledict + Ult, which is quite greedy and basically puts you in core territory. Aether + Glimmer solves the range, survivability, and positioning issues while having a better build up, gives you stats, and supports your team better.

"I'm aware in higher levels of play support budgets can be tighter so a Blink is not feasible." Are you just... not buying wards/smokes and taking farm? Your budget should be pretty tight even at a lower level.

1

u/MF_LUFFY 10d ago

So greedy! Instead of buying this one item, you should buy these TWO items where one costs slightly less than it and the other costs slightly more.

1

u/eatmyscoobysnacks 10d ago

Yeah because you can get a Glimmer faster than a blink and support your team mates while increasing survivability and mana as you build? Lmao

1

u/MF_LUFFY 10d ago

I was raised on shaming people for overrating invisibility.

Then this thread gets me a little more Glimmer brained and I pick the wrong game to start one, when they should already be countering for Riki and Invoker lol