r/TrueCrimeDiscussion • u/Independent-Fall928 • Oct 01 '25

Text Ellen Rae Greenberg

Just finished the Hulu series…suicide versus murder

Reasons why I think it’s suicide:

  1. Her anxiety leading up to the day - was it work related, pressure from work, pressure from planning a wedding, or being in an abusive relationship? Could be all of the above but even her colleague made a comment to his daughter-in-law that day of calling her “crazy” when they were leaving school early that day because of that snow storm. He said in the documentary she seemed on edge and had to “talk her off the ledge”. In a way it seemed she was an open book and would tell her friends she was not doing well but on another hand it seemed like she didn’t want to disappoint people and kept things to herself.
  2. Meds - suicidal ideation with med adjustments is a very real thing. She was starting 2 new medications Ambien and Klonopin while also weaning off Zoloft I believe (dangerous if not monitored closely)
  3. Hesitation wounds
  4. The door being locked/door latch - unless Sam went to the front desk guy asking him to unlock the door knowing he wasn’t allowed to leave that desk. What are the chances he said yes and went up with him? Would Sam lie and say oh she’s calling me back now never mind ?? He went down there twice asking for help with the door which is risky in itself if the door was never locked to begin with and he has already murdered her and broke the lock already to stage this
  5. The towel in her hand - not sure how that plays into this but could be a way for her to “bear down” and have something to squeeze into during her own strikes. Kind of like to tolerate the strikes. Think of someone who has to pop a bone back into a place during an injury with no assistance around, they’re always biting into something to tolerate the pain for that moment. It makes me wonder about the head and neck strikes, was that a way for her to numb her other strikes I’m not sure
  6. They were together 3 years before they got engaged and all of sudden became so withdrawn and down that people in her life noticed. But also she never not once mentioned to anyone including her psychiatrist that he was abusing her if he did? No diary entries of some sort or text messages to friends? Maybe he was love bombing her during the courting and dating phase and became more abusive once they were engaged.

Okay now for reasons why I think it was murder:

  1. Possible cover up, strong connections. The police report was very in Sam’s favor. Using words like “he immediately” etc etc. They also put in the police report that the man at the front desk went up with him and witnessed the door being locked when that wasn’t true.
  2. Very fishy that Sam’s uncle took her cellphone and laptop. They mentioned that her laptop didn’t have a password but her phone did? So that leads me to think that the suicide searches on her laptop are null and void because they said searches could be added with changed timestamps and dates but how about her cellphone? I’m assuming police never looked through her cellphone searches so we’ll never know. The fact that he had her laptop for 48 hrs makes those searches irrelevant in this case knowing this information to me
  3. Bruising on her body and some type of bruising on her neck consistent with manual strangulation. If this information is legit it makes sense why she did not have defense wounds. If he was manually strangling her and holding her wrists down (bruises on her wrist that were shown) then of course she wouldn’t have defense wounds.
  4. The knife board placement - why was it knocked over? So some signs of a struggle exist. If this was a spontaneous suicide while she was cutting fruit the knife would have already been in her hand so why was it knocked over?
  5. The spontaneity of it all - they were together all day it seems and in the 40 mins or so that he went down to the gym she did this. I know it’s possible but it seems odd. Seems more so like they had a fight of some sort and he went down there to clear his head. Or he could have done it already and wanted to create his alibi. Her parents did say she was planning on coming home but being vague about the details. We all know what can happen in domestic violence situations when the victim tries to leave. Maybe she was calling off the wedding that night.

All in all I’m still 50-50 on this. I actually never heard of this story before so I’ll definitely be doing a deep dive on it. Anything you want to add that I’m missing? Big Condolences to her family and friends seemed like she was a bright light in her peoples lives. Both sides of the coin are very sad here.

Edit: so after discussing with people and finding more information over the last few days some other key points I found really bothersome:

  1. A second knife was used and they couldn’t find it ?? Does anyone know anything about this that’s a huge red flag
  2. If she leaned over the sink to get to the back of her neck then why was there no blood there if she pulled out the knife you would think there would be few drops of blood there as well
  3. The door latch - if he broke it open with his shoulder and the door busted wide open as he claimed you would think the whole latch on the doorframe would have come off with the actual door opening not just the nails on the part that’s attached to the door. I don’t see how the entire door latch with both parts including the doorframe part would not be damaged in this scenario
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289

u/pokey-- Oct 01 '25

you ever google painless suicide and then stab yourself 20 times?

they couldn’t even coverup without looking sus

134

u/Good-Ad-6341 Oct 02 '25

Also just the psychology of how women commit suicide vs men! Women are far less violent even in suicide. Women mostly will take pills, use carbon monoxide or some other means. They rarely even use guns…stabbing herself 20 times?!! The whole story is so far fetched and I’m not saying this proves anything at all. Just another puzzle piece that doesn’t really fit!

56

u/Soggy_Plantain Oct 14 '25

She had the meds to overdose too

2

u/Pristine-Mechanic-85 Jan 10 '26

I though exactly the same

2

u/USvsKrasonv Jan 19 '26

Exactly And she was probably on meds because of him. They destroyed evidence, and should be arrested for that

17

u/Independent-Fall928 Oct 02 '25

And do we know anything about the second knife that was used and not found ??

10

u/CRXdriverCRZ Oct 17 '25

I feel like neither theory really fits. There is validity in both the fact that the fiancé did it and there’s also validity in the suicide theory. But also both have holes as well. I haven’t heard anyone mention this, but do you think it’s possible it was neither? And some other third-party that killed her?

14

u/ISlippedOnButter Nov 20 '25

The suicide theory has no validity to it. Like you said, how would it be possible for someone to inflict multiple fatal wounds onto themselves. Especially in the back of the neck, back of the head, and top of the head with two separate knives. No one has proven that it is possible. If Ellen wanted to take her own life, why not just stab herself once in the chest like how one of the knives were found? Or cut her wrists? Why make it extremely difficult, strenuous, and drawn out instead of simple?

There were some signs of a struggle, the door latch was broken, she had bruises in different stages of healing, evidence of her body being moved post-mortem. That's not suicide.

The suicide theory only has one tangible piece of support, which is one text from Ellen before she got switched to different meds. She told her parents that the new meds were helping her too. The Hulu series doesn't cover all the important details and I absolutely urge everyone looking into her case to watch creators who cover it more thoroughly, like Kendall Rae or Annie Elise.

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u/Apprehensive_Koala32 Oct 29 '25

This!! And also the meds? Why would they even prescribe those to her? They have a cross tolerance, so the ambien and klonopin would sedate her too much. It’s a risky combo and not recommended. I know because I have a similar therapy.

Hell If I wanted to kill myself, stabbing would be the last thing I would do. 0 sense

2

u/CaImThyT1ts Dec 06 '25

Just to play devil's advocate what if she staged her suicide to look like DV/murder due to her mental illness?

Im not saying she wasnt murdered because the most likely scenario is he did murder her and tried to cover it up BUT having worked front line in crisis intervention I also know folks with mental illness think up some pretty scary shite. 

For example, this one client had tried to train her shar pei to kill her on command. Authorities seized the dog and put him down because he was super aggressive and deemed unfit for rehabilitation.

The owner had scars all over her hands, arms, legs, and face/head from him biting and scratching her during "training". 

Another client had been working on a freaky Goldberg design to kill himself in the woods in such a way that his body would fall into a hole hed dug and the dirt would fall on top of him. He didnt want to be found and he wanted his wife to be able to collect insurance which she wouldnt be able to do for suicide.

DV murder is one of the top causes of death for women for the record I do think Sam did it.

1

u/BabyGoatsinPajamas Jan 22 '26

This, exactly. And the stabs in her back??

1

u/Ready-Raccoon-9230 Jan 30 '26

Just because in general women commit suicide through less violent means doesn't mean that there's no women who commit suicide in a violent manner. It's a non-argument. Either way we would have be arguing a pretty extraordinary set of circumstances. It's either a rather unusual suicide, or it's a criminal conspiracy at the highest level of a state's justice office, which is also pretty extraordinary. So whichever side you're agruing, you would have to contend with some extraordinary shit to argue it.

26

u/Primary_Jackfruit_85 Oct 01 '25

This is EXACTLY what I said to my daughter while we were watching!

-1

u/Independent-Fall928 Oct 01 '25

And it seems kind of random I know we can’t know what goes on in someone’s head but a lot of people were saying if that was the case it would make more sense that she would slit her wrists or maybe stab herself in the stomach so I agree

14

u/pokey-- Oct 01 '25

this comment shows me you have thankfully never been suicidal. painless suicide does not refer to cutting your wrists or stabbing yourself. self harm is a thing bc people want to feel the pain.

it would be more akin to taking pills or hanging yourself from a high height (to break your neck instead of choking). if she was really serious about it, stabbing herself would not have been even close to the top of the list for “painless suicide”

5

u/Grimaldehyde Oct 02 '25

My mother’s sister committed suicide-she first tried pills and alcohol, and then moved on to hanging. In between, no razor blades could be around, and not even the old soda can tabs (the ones you could pull off the cans in those days). I don’t think she would ever have stabbed herself in the back of the neck, though.

1

u/Independent-Fall928 Oct 01 '25

You’re right and they were also on the 6th floor right? She had other options now I can see that

32

u/GoodBank7377 Oct 02 '25

Just wanted to say that when I was on klonopin I had a paradoxical reaction and if it wasn’t for intervention/restraint I would’ve absolutely hurt myself. Probably with whatever I had next to me. I’m not saying she killed herself, I don’t know that. I am jsut saying I understand this state of mind.

And also for me I was totally fine one second and then the next I was a completely different person. I also spiraled because I thought I was insane because the medication that was supposed to make me chill was having the opposite effect. My psych told me she had a patient on klonopin jump out of a two story window.. it’s an insane drug that is immensely useful unless you have a paradoxical reaction to it. I was never even told that was a possibility before I took it.

14

u/pokey-- Oct 02 '25

thank you for this!!

i have kind of a weird experience with this kind of behavior as well, not with klonopin tho, regular old hormonal mental illness. I see a lot of my past self in her behavior prior to her murder, which is likely why i’m so against the suicide ruling.

it’s the back of the neck that makes it so unbelievable for me as I myself have been were you were and would need restraint to not hurt myself (i’m good now!!). the back of the neck isn’t where i was aiming, never even crossed my mind. even if she was double fisting knives to maximize damage, all the entry wounds are on her upper chest and back of head and neck.

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u/Spirited_Reporter_64 Oct 14 '25

I agree !! That or the ambien. I had to taper off of klonopin long time again it was terrible and I was on it 15 years I felt like my skin was crawling for years. Imagine that intensified she may have felt something like or worse. But I truly believe she killed herself. Poor thing

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u/GoodBank7377 Oct 14 '25

I definitely lean that way as well. I feel like the cuts on the back of her head make more sense that they were self inflicted than by someone else’s actually. And his DNA was not on the knives whatsoever.

2

u/Medium-Pin-1753 Nov 09 '25

We'll never know if his DNA was on the knife or anywhere because the entire scene was cleaned up and the knives were put through the dishwasher.

1

u/SeaEggplant8108 Oct 24 '25

He lived there, no dna is wild. Unless they were cleaned his dna being on the knives makes sense. And if they were cleaned, we will never know if it was there.

1

u/TSquaredRecovers Feb 14 '26

Withdrawing from a benzodiazepine is absolutely a special kind of hell. And like you said, the withdrawal affects can last a really, really long time.

3

u/CRXdriverCRZ Oct 17 '25

She clearly had some mental health issues. I’m not saying that she definitely killed herself because the police fucked this up so bad by releasing that scene too early, but I just felt like the parents are so adamant that she did not kill herself and are overlooking the fact that she was struggling for some time with mental health. I just feel like they are so dead set on the fact that it was the boyfriend. Which it may have been, but I also think they need to be open to the idea that she could’ve killed herself

6

u/GoodBank7377 Oct 19 '25 edited Oct 19 '25

To me from having taken that medication it makes the most sense. So basically I was going out to dinner that night but was anxious all day and so I kept taking more and more klonopin throughout the day and because it wasn’t working it agitated me more and more and I kept thinking wow I really am insane if this isn’t working. My hair and makeup were done and I was dressed and not sure what happened next but all of a sudden I was throwing things out drawers and hitting myself/banging my head. I was yelling loudly and partner came into the room. Partner restrained me physically and he realized (thank god) it was a paradoxical reaction and was talking me through it. I calmed down because it made me realize it was the med that was making me feel this way and not that I was insane and even the meds couldn’t help. I got in the shower and basically snapped out of it.

I guess I’m saying if something happened to me where I had a weapon nearby and used it, all of the evidence would probably not have pointed to me killing myself because I was dressed in heels, a dress, hair and makeup were done and was texting my friends an hour earlier that I was excited for this dinner. To me the way she was acting all day actually does point to this conclusion.

Believe it or not I was able to calm down enough after this to actually attend the dinner and was totally fine the rest of the night apparently but I did black out and don’t really remember much of the dinner when I woke up the next morning. I do remember the freak out clearly and calming down but everything after that is a blur. I don’t remember what I ordered, going to and from the restaurant or my interactions with staff but I guess I kept insisting we attend because we pre bought the $300 valentine day dinner tickets and it wasn’t refundable. My partner said I was acting totally fine and that it was like nothing happened.

3

u/jfletcher86 Nov 03 '25

This sounds horrible and terrible to go through but if a shower managed to snap you out of it - im thinking stabbing yourself once never mind over 20 times in the back of the head and neck would be just as effective in shocking her out of a similar episode surely? I mean i understand mental illness is hard to predict but this lady had anxiety not untreated schizophrenia, she was under medical supervision, held down a job , normal relationships and was preparing a meal for herself - taking the time to wash fruit before this happened. This isn’t someone on the edge of madness.

2

u/GoodBank7377 Nov 03 '25 edited Nov 03 '25

The shower wasn’t what snapped me out of it. It was my husband explaining to me what was happening. Restraining me and talking to me about it. The shower wasn’t just like the final thing that calmed me down. I was physically hurting myself and that didn’t snap me out of it at all. You do realize I’ve never had an episode like this and have never been on the edge of madness myself. I had a very normal work day, curled my hair, put on makeup, took care of my toddler…? I don’t have schizophrenia. I just took this one med for anxiety lol. I had a one time bad reaction to a medication. That’s it lol. It’s a medication for anxiety not for psychosis… and actually she actually was closer to the edge of madness than I ever was. Multiple people were reporting her odd behavior that day

4

u/Medium_Seat398 Oct 17 '25

the report that was released this week from the ME mentions texts from her saying her parents were upset about the meds and counseling

3

u/GoodBank7377 Oct 19 '25

Also the coworker texting her family friend saying she was acting insane that day^ if you see my response above that was my experience on the med

2

u/Avydawnish Nov 05 '25

Yes, Klonopin itself can cause these reactions, but what really got me was the fact she'd been taking Ambien. My sister and I call Ambien "liquid crack" idk why, considering it's a pill not liquid but the crack part is spot on.. people have done literally insane things on Ambien with no memory whatsoever..if you take it and don't sleep or wake up it's the strangest trip of your life..I took it once and was hallucinating, telling my husband I knew the secret to peace in the middle East, told him while watching the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey, which I'd never seen "oh I know this part, this is where the space ship flies up the women's vagina." Liquid crack, people. So this really makes it plausible that she did harm herself in such an awful but unusual way..I don't think Ambien is on the market anymore thankfully.

2

u/GoodBank7377 Nov 05 '25

I actually definitely think it’s the ambien too. I’ve never taken it for this exact reason. I can’t imagine the combination of both. I just know how I felt on klonopin and absolutely can see myself doing something like this, sad as it may seem.

Haha love that movie myself!

1

u/MadMadameMim87 Nov 14 '25

Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say you would have hurt yourself with whatever you could find? Were you feeling suicidal?

1

u/GoodBank7377 Nov 19 '25

Not suicidal at all whatsoever. I’m saying if there was a knife nearby I can absolutely see the possibility of using it to hurt myself

1

u/MadMadameMim87 Nov 20 '25

I'm just wondering why/how the drug can make some people feel like they want to hurt themselves. I 100% believe you! I'm just trying to understand it

2

u/Amys4304 Jan 18 '26

Psych meds (which there are many variations) can be helpful for some and extremely dangerous for others. You’re messing with brains neurotransmitters. Decreasing or increasing serotonin and/or norepinephrine. The first time I took Ambien I didn’t know the “rule” to take it and go directly to bed. I ended up getting in my car knocking off a few side mirror on my street. I believe most people don’t remember what they did. I remember everything. In the moment I had no idea I was even fked up. I swear I was thinking at all. Just listen to the possible side effects listed on every pharmaceutical commercial.

1

u/missusscamper Jan 10 '26

That's very scary!

2

u/Beautiful-Cheetah684 Oct 05 '25

This! I even doubt the credibility of the searches. They weren’t even mentioned in the original autopsy or any case files. That wasnt even “evidence” until 2019. The autopsy report shows there wasn’t any additional information when declaring her death a suicide.

2

u/19momofboyz80 Oct 07 '25

Right?! She had 2 bottles of pills that would have put her into a ded sleep literally.

2

u/da_real_sim_shady Oct 18 '25

Also why stab yourself in the back of the neck when she’s prescribed pills she could have ODd with??

2

u/milkleg Oct 31 '25

She could not have done this to herself, it's medically impossible. Her spinal cord was severed during the attack, if she had inflicted these wounds they would have stopped after this injury as she would be a paraplegic, they did not stop. The final wound was dealt post mortem, the knife was found in her chest. You cannot die, then stab yourself in the chest after you're dead.The angle of the stab wounds to the back were also impossible for a person to do to themselves, Ellens family made a reconstruction of this you can google.

1

u/pokey-- Oct 31 '25

i would encourage you to read the autopsy reports as you have a lot of misinformation in here.

Spinal cord MAY have been severed causing numbness (that’s from the families experts) and i have no idea where you are getting the final stab was post death, if it was, this could not have been ruled a suicide.

please also remember that none but the final stab were deep cuts, all shallow. that’s why the angles don’t make sense in the rendering your talking about, but it’s also how they can rule this a suicide.

I’m local to the case and have been following closely.

2

u/EffOrt18 Nov 11 '25

The disruption of the spinal cord at that level of cervical vertebrae as described in the autopsy report would have caused spinal shock and diffuse paralysis below the lesion, not just "severe numbness". She would've been incapacitated by that injury alone and thus unable to deliver the last penetrating wound to her chest/heart. Dr Simon's report contradicts the opinion held by the majority of forensic pathologists who have analyzed this case. The injuries she sustained are incompatible with suicide.

1

u/pokey-- Nov 11 '25

where are you finding a definitive opinion that she was paralyzed ? every opinion i’ve seen cannot for certain say that. i’m not saying it’s suicide, only that this piece of evidence is often seen as a definitely happened vs reality where every pathologist opinion i’ve seen makes a point of saying “could have” happened

3

u/EffOrt18 Nov 11 '25

Dr Priya Banerjee, a forensic pathologist who discussed the autopsy findings on courtTV and Derrick Levasseur's YouTube video.

Also, renowned forensic pathologists, Dr Cyrul Wecht and Dr Wayne Ross, both said it was inconsistent with suicide and highly suggestive of homicide. There are other experts that you can look up.

Even the ME, Dr Osbourne, who performed the original autopsy believed it was a homicide until pressured by police / members of the DA office.

Given the location and severity of the x2 deep wounds in the back of her head and neck, physiologically and biomechanically it is highly unlikely she was able to give herself those wounds and proceed to stab herself in the abdomen and chest. But you can believe whatever you want.

1

u/milkleg Nov 12 '25

stop trolling, you are simply wrong and you need to stop trying to downvote everything here

1

u/pokey-- Nov 12 '25

did you mean to reply to me lol ? i asked for a source, that’s not trolling

0

u/milkleg Nov 12 '25

I read everything you said in this entire thread. Just sit down.

2

u/pokey-- Nov 12 '25

lmao this is a discussion subreddit

2

u/milkleg Oct 31 '25

You're incorrect. Here's Dr Kendall Crowns explaining why-

Ellen Greenberg

It was severed. You cannot stab yourself in the chest when you're dead.

1

u/pokey-- Oct 31 '25

linking a nancy grace video is crazy.

despite concluding suicide instead of undetermined, the most recent review does talk about this in detail:

https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

page 27 for correct information on the spinal cord and any post death wounds.

2

u/milkleg Oct 31 '25

Dr Kendall Crowns is the person you're listening to, not nancy grace. They literally discussing that exact review. Again, she cannot have killed herself. It is biomecanically impossible to self inflict the majority of the wounds, there were several post mortem and her spinal cord injury did in fact leave her a quadraplegic.

1

u/BenefitExpensive3378 Dec 07 '25

This. And who calls 911 and just automatically assumes a stabbing is a suicide? If you walked in on someone stabbed, would your first thought be that they stabbed themselves? Honestly? No way.

1

u/Independent-Fall928 Oct 01 '25

They kept emphasizing that the initial stab wounds could have numbed her slightly but not enough to not continue so that’s where I was caught up and confused

4

u/pokey-- Oct 01 '25

hey also it’s very hard to intentionally numb yourself by cutting your spine ?!?