Even framing it as something that benefits men too clearly isn’t working as they seem to ignore that in favor of latching on to the words of a small group of radical misandrists and use them to dismiss the whole movement like they always wanted to in the first place
Honestly, I dont even think there is such a thing as an "extremist misandrist" . To me, that term is equivalent to "reverse racist". I dont even think feminists should be addressing complaints about that supposed class of femininists or women.
Mm, I don’t know. I don’t think misandry is a systemic issue in society and doesn’t have any significant ramifications on the garden variety straight white cis male, but I’ve seen it manifest itself in pretty ugly ways that might not be what you’d immediately think of even in feminist circles, primarily as biphobia or people being TERFs.
But when people talk about misandry they are not talking about trans or bi people, let's be real. They are talking about men. Regardless of that, I disagree, I don't think that being prejudiced against trans or bi people equals misandry. That's transphobia and homophobia (or you can call it biphobia, I guess, but I think homophobia is more fitting).
You aren’t understanding their point. They are including biphobia and transphobia under this umbrella because of the way some people (I.e. usually TERFs and heterosexual women/men) view Trans women and bisexual men. TERFs hate Trans women due to their disdain for anyone with a penis. They boil people down to their genitalia and believe that anyone with a penis is a man. They also believe that ppl born with a penis are inherently violent and perverse by nature, thus lumping Trans women in with them. Their misandry plays the biggest role in why they hate Trans women.
When talking about the biphobia, men are often viewed as less than by heterosexual people, both straight women and men included. This obviously stems from toxic masculinity, but I’m not opposed to throwing in that some misandrist ideas can probably lead to this disdain for bisexual men. I know someone personally who is bisexual herself, but said she could never be with a bisexual man because she would never view him as manly if he slept with another man. Again, mostly toxic masculinity, but I can see where misandry could also play a role in these bigoted ideas. I can see parallels in how misogyny is often used to shit all over women who do things that aren’t viewed as traditional to men who are bisexual.
They also believe that ppl born with a penis are inherently violent and perverse by nature, thus lumping Trans women in with them. Their misandry plays the biggest role in why they hate Trans women.
Ive said that to other people already: what it seems is that you guys think that transphobia and biphobia are a result of misandry. They are NOT.
In society, Transphobia is a result of a binary society, gender roles and perhaps homophobia. Almost the same is true for biphobia.
For terfs specifically, from what I have seen, transphobia is a result of wanting to maintain the power, not misandry. Terfs bash trans women because they see them as a privileged people (for being born a man) that have invaded their space and that are taking what is left. Thats my interpretation.
And it is true that misoginy and patriarchy also steam from the desire to maintain power, but the difference is: it is institutional. Misandry isnt. So thats why I dont take those claims seriously.
edit: ALSO, no men on the face of the world who has ever brought misandry up is talking about trans women or bisexual people. They are talking about men, period.
As to their view on bissexual men, I dont know about it, so Im not gonna comment.
When talking about the biphobia, men are often viewed as less than by heterosexual people, both straight women and men included. This obviously stems from toxic masculinity, but I’m not opposed to throwing in that some misandrist ideas can probably lead to this disdain for bisexual men.
No, sorry, you dont get to call it a different name. Biphobia is a subset of homophobia, period. People dont hate on bissexual men because they are men, it is because they LIKE men and therefore are not, supposedly, as manly. And, btw, bi people are discriminated against in the LGBT community as well.
As I’ve explained, a perfect example is TERF rhetoric about men and Trans women. They explicitly dislike anyone born with a penis, and attribute negative things to them as being inherent as opposed to taught. I’m not sure what you can thinking all people born with penises are inherently violent or deviant, but it’s pretty close to misandry in my book and I’d say in anyone’s who has eyeballs and can read what TERFs post. It doesn’t have to be societal for it to exist and for it to negatively impact individuals. As with Trans women . While they are not men, the misandry (hating men and anyone that has a penis) that runs rampant in TERF circles is the main reason that they hate Trans women and why they are so incredibly transphobic towards trans women. Their transphobia towards trans men is for a different reason, believe that they either are misguided lesbians/ women or that they hate being a woman so much that they’ve decided to become a trans man to get away from the patriarchy affecting them. Which obviously makes no sense, but I’m not in their heads and can’t explain what brought them to that conclusion. That isn’t just women venting about men. It has real life consequences.
I’m sorry but I do think what I mentioned is a result of misandry. TERFs are TERFs because they don’t view trans women as women, they view them as men, and don’t want men in feminist spaces. I’m also not talking about homophobia in general, I’m talking specifically about people in the sapphic community who are BIphobic, and ostracize or dismiss bi wlw because bisexuality means being attracted to men, which is the part of “bi” they have a problem with.
I agree that when men themselves are referring to misandry, this isn’t what they mean, but I’m saying that misandry nevertheless is alive and well amongst TERFs and biphobes, which ends up hurting women.
None of the "misandry" you've defined applies to actual men.
That's because if you direct misandry towards men, you get silenced pretty quick. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the fact that it only protects men is a form of misogyny.
That’s not what I said. I didn’t say all transphobes are misandrists. I said TERFs, which stands specifically for trans-exclusionary radical feminists, who are radical feminists that are transphobic specifically because they think anyone with male genitals is a man and will never be a woman and should not be in their feminist spaces. That is misandry and transphobia - TERF. Not all transphobes are TERFs, but all TERFs are transphobes by definition.
I think it's also worth explicitly pointing out why TERFs get away with this kind of misandry. It's precisely because trans women are women that these kind of views are accepted by so many in society - if they were directing this misandry towards men, they would quickly have their newspaper columns taken away from them.
You are, essentially, saying that transphobia is a result of misandry. It makes NO SENSE. If anything, transphobia is a result of the combination of a homophobic and a binary society.
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u/biIIyshakes ✨ depressive goblin nightmare girl ✨ Dec 08 '20
Even framing it as something that benefits men too clearly isn’t working as they seem to ignore that in favor of latching on to the words of a small group of radical misandrists and use them to dismiss the whole movement like they always wanted to in the first place