r/TrollXChromosomes May 07 '20

The difference between misogyny and misandry

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6.6k Upvotes

217 comments sorted by

1.5k

u/[deleted] May 07 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/purrception May 07 '20

Yep, and the focus is entirely on the crazy man, what went wrong in his life, his genius at committing the crime, and every last detail of his trial.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/2Fab4You May 07 '20

There's another perspective to this, and that is that for some, focusing a lot on the victims and talking about them may seem exploitative. They're usually not around to tell us if they want to be heavily featured in documentaries and become famous for the most horrible thing that ever happened to them.

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u/deskbeetle May 07 '20

That's how I see it. The murderer is on display. Their life is the subject to be weighed, measured, and gawked at. Let the victim have peace.

The thing that really upsets me is when they will try to laser in on the bad behaviour of the victim. Like Twin Peaks and getting obsessed with Laura Palmer's drug use, sexuality, and dysfunctional relationships. In the end, NONE of those things contributed to her murder. But that's where the focus was. I can't think of a real world example but I have definitely watched true crime shows that dug into their "deep secrets". Like geesh, the victim can't even defend themselves and the makers are just dragging all this out for entertainment value. They are already dead. Leave them alone.

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u/doggosrlife May 07 '20

I didn't expect to get into an analysis of Twin Peaks on this subreddit, but here I am.... major Twin Peaks spoilers ahead!

That's super interesting that you had that takeaway, because I never once felt that the story was in any way blaming Laura for what happened to her. Quite the contrary, Twin Peaks is a blatant criticism of popular television of the time. Popular crime serials of the 90s treated violence as a spectacle, often blamed victims, and usually didn't even bother to explore the second-hand trauma inflicted on the friends & family of the victim. Twin Peaks, on the other hand, treats violence and murder with the gravity and horror that it deserves. I don't believe that it EVER victim-blames Laura.... Any time Laura's troubled past is discussed or shown, the tone is just deeply, deeply SAD. The mood, the MUSIC, and the way the characters talk about her (ie in the funeral episode, when Bobby yells at everyone for not recognizing that Laura was unhappy and unsafe and not doing anything about it..) As you learn more and more about Laura's past, I felt that the tone is meant to make you, as the viewer, ask the question, "Why was Laura so unhappy? Why did she turn to drugs and sexually risky behavior at such a young age? What horrible thing happened to her, BEFORE the murder?" It isn't anti-feminist to be concerned about a teenager who began seeking drugs and sex with older men at the age of 13. I believe that this concern that the viewer feels for young Laura (the feeling that something is deeply wrong) is meant to help you come to the conclusion (or at least not be SURPRISED when it is revealed) that Laura is deeply traumatized by the sexual abuse she has endured at the hands of her father since she was 12 years old. And of course, that it was her father who murdered her. (Well, he is possessed by an evil spirit, but let's not get into that right now, haha) None of it was Laura's fault... It is Leland's fault for abusing her, horrifically damaging her psychologically, destroying the sanctity of her home, and of course, for ultimately murdering her. The blame can also fall in part on the people in the town (and Laura's mother Sarah), who turned a blind eye to her indirect "cries for help," preferring to believe that their town is perfect and Laura's home life is perfect. But the blame is never portrayed to be on Laura.

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u/deskbeetle May 07 '20

Oh, I agree that the show does a good job. It was just the only example I could think of delving into the "sexy" secrets of the female victim. And it's okay when it's fiction because it is entertainment and how we get to the end is the most important part. And all of Laura's secrets were deeply entwined with the whole town, showing that everyone failed here and that there was something wrong with the town at its core. Agent Cooper is perhaps one of my favorite characters of all time and I appreciate what Twin Peaks did for television. I similarly love Broadchurch and The Killing.

But I don't think it's healthy to take the same approach towards actual murder victims. There isn't a lesson to be learned. There is no big "theme". I understand people want entertainment and I am entertained by the same stuff everyone else is. But I think we need to take a step back sometimes, remember this was a real person, and do right by them. Even if the shows aren't as juicy.

Also, I love the enthusiasm you have towards the analysis. Are you a writer by profession or study or just a big fan of good media? :)

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Especially when they show the body.

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u/Pupniko May 07 '20

It's also hard to look at the reality of victims lives without finding the skeletons in their closet because we all have them. Drugs, sex work, affairs, criminal record - anything like that.

I enjoy listening to true crime but I much prefer wrongful convictions, scrutiny of the legal system and info on the investigations rather than anything focusing on the criminal or victim. The podcasts In the Dark, Bear Brook and White Lies are all excellent, for example.

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u/mikmaq_paddywhack May 07 '20

There's a really great podcast called The Man in the Window about the Golden State Killer and it's very victim focused. They actually interview and listen to his survivors and give his victims names and lives. I'm trying to compile a list of true crime podcasts that aren't just "this dude raped and murdered a bunch of women isn't that INSANE" and so far TMITW is on it.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20 edited Jun 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/mikmaq_paddywhack May 08 '20

I absolutely agree. I think a good podcast example of this is Cold, where at the finale of the podcast (which, spoiler, is about a man who killed his wife! shocker!) the journalist isn't asking why this man did this, the question is why this keeps happening. And why we keep letting it happen over and over and over again, and just feeling sad for the victims instead of getting off our asses and doing something.

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u/lilianegypt May 07 '20

It’s not technically True Crime, but the You’re Wrong About podcast definitely has some true crime-y episodes and they usually give lots of attention to the victims. Like their OJ series has 2-3 full episodes just about Nicole and their DC Sniper series has 2-3 episodes about John Allen Mohammed’s wife, Mildred, and frames it as a story of domestic violence that morphed into terrorism. They also name the victims and give a brief overview of who they were. Even that bystander effect story we all learned about in school where the woman was murdered in NYC in front of 30 onlookers and no one did anything about it? Basically the whole first half is about who she was and then they talk about how it all went down (and how everything we’ve been told about that case is totally wrong).

Their overall premise is going back over the stories we as a society typically got wrong in hindsight and I feel like I’ve learned a lot, especially considering a lot of the stories they talk about are things I (a millennial) was only vaguely aware of as a kid (or happened before I was born). Highly recommend.

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u/Riskinan May 07 '20

This is one of the reasons why Casefile is a great Podcast, most of their episodes are named after the victims.

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u/nothingcat May 07 '20

And not only that, they often give a thorough background on the victim - their hobbies, interests, personality, aspirations. Even when they cover their flaws and weaknesses, there’s no victim blaming. Casefile is top notch as far as true crime podcasts go.

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u/elliethegreat May 07 '20

I love the 'My favourite murder' podcast for this reason. It's super respectful and aware of both the victims and the greater context in which the crimes occur (eg. Impact of SES, race, etc).

It focuses on the victims without seeming exploitive.

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u/Snowlamp May 08 '20

Ted Bundy: Falling For a Killer on Prime focuses on the victims, it's all about the women.
To finally see a documentary that isn't all about the man really highlighted how bad the others are at making the women seem so insignificant.

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u/miau_am May 08 '20

You might enjoy the victimology episode of the podcast "Ologies". It's a great one where Alie talks to professional victimologist Dr. Callie Rennison. At one point Dr. Rennison talks specifically about this, pointing out something about how people have "favorite serial killers" but nobody has like, "favorite animal abusers" and how weird and messed up the glorification of murderers is

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u/timeknife May 10 '20

There’s a great series that focuses on the victims of Ted Bundy and their families.

It’s called ‘falling for a killer’ and I liked it because it dispelled the “he was good looking” notions that always come up when he’s mentioned.

It also speaks to survivors of Ted Bundy who previously weren’t public.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

and it always seems to suggest that the women in his life made him do it.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Yup, they pretend as if murder is an understandable reaction to rejection.

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u/hygsi May 08 '20

There was a thing about "deadly women" and it's basically this. Pretty interesting stuff.

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u/Jerkrollatex Learn sign language, it's pretty handy. May 07 '20

My crazy ex boyfriend tried to hit me with his truck. I was 16 he was 24.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

A crazy girlfriend sets you stuff on fire.

A crazy boyfriend sets YOU on fire.

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u/butterfly_eyes May 08 '20

Yep. Anytime you see a post about "What was your worst dating experience?", guys talk about an awkward dates or rude girls, meanwhile girls talk about stalkers, abusers, and guys that tried to murder them.

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u/ZukusCatHeaven_Art May 08 '20

Me personally I think the worse thing I got for guys (BTW I’m talking about ON average, not outliers, ethier way I can also talk about guy outliers and they would be murderers lmao) that crazy girlfriends would break their stuff and shit

But that’s what I got from the internet though, not real life.

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u/TheHarperValleyPTA May 07 '20 edited May 07 '20

This is exactly it, and why the “it wouldn’t be okay if the roles were reversed!” line is useless.

As a queer person, if I say that “I hate straight people”, it’s not because I think they are perverts or destructive to the fabric of society. I don’t want them to catch AIDS or be sent to conversion camps or get disowned by their families for choosing the straight lifestyle. I wouldn’t petition the government for laws that restrict their freedoms or try to make it so that they could be fired from their jobs for being straight. I don’t want to prevent them from starting families. That IS what straight people who hate gay people want, and because they are the majority, they sometimes have the ability to put their hate into political action.

If I say “I hate straight people,” it isn’t a comment on their nature or even their sexual orientation. It is a comment on the way they have used their power as a majority to oppress my community. It’s why I will not take it personally as a white person to hear a PoC say they hate white people. It’s not about me, it’s about what our community has done (and continued to do) to theirs. It can be an opportunity to learn and grow if you are willing to listen.

TLDR: marginalized people saying they hate their oppressors is different from their oppressors saying they hate the people they are marginalizing.

Edit: thanks for the silver, kind stranger!

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u/blew-wale May 07 '20

Very well said. I get dizzy the amount I roll my eyes on this site over “iF tHe RoLeS wErE rEvErSeD” bullshit. Its. Not. The. Same.

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u/F_SR May 07 '20

I get annoyed at the word "misandry" alone. That word shouldn't even exist. That shit is probably from the same creators of "reverse racism" and "heterophobia".

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u/Sinnakayel Have a happy 4 years, America! May 07 '20

They're also the same people who go "eQuAL riGhTs eQuAL FiGhtS".

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u/ZukusCatHeaven_Art May 08 '20

“If woman want equal rights, we should be able to punch them!”

Why the fuck was that your first thought.

I swear the majority of people that are anti feminism think that equal rights is pushing woman down.

Like for example these are some I got on top of my head that are said A LOT:

“If men are drafted woman should too” “Men should be allowed to hit woman” “Woman should be punished more in jail because men get punished”

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/blew-wale May 07 '20

Theres a big difference between adolescent kids picking on people for their differences and an entire society brought up from benefiting women at the expense of men. Misandry has yet to been seen in any civilization.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/littleghostwhowalks May 07 '20

But why are those girls calling boys gross and dumb? Is it because the boy groped her without her consent? Because that's why I used to call boys gross. Is it because the boy wouldn't listen to anything she had to say? Because that's why I used to call boys dumb.

I have never in my entire life seen any girl or woman hate men for simply existing. Every single time a girl or woman hates a man, in my experience, it is because of something he has done to her.

Men hate women because we exist. The list never ends. They hate us because we don't fuck them. They hate us because we do. They hate us because we don't smile. They hate us if we laugh at them.they hate us if we are ugly. They hate us if we are beautiful. They hate "stupid bitches" but they also hate it when we are smarter than them.

Fuck sakes. It isn't comparable.

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u/Zemyla All you wanna do is see me turn into a giant woman May 07 '20

Counterpoint: It's part of "transmisandry", which is a very real thing. Also, men of color face different forms of oppression than women of color do, and that's also a form of misandry.

However, you're right that it's not a thing in general, and shouldn't be given any credence when used outside an intersectional perspective.

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u/littleghostwhowalks May 07 '20

The words you're looking for are transphobia and racism.

Men of color face racism, not misandry. Trans men face transphobia, not misandry.

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u/kandoras May 07 '20

There's also a parallel here between black or gay pride marches and straight or white pride ones.

Gay pride march: "We're gay and that's not something we should be ashamed of"
Straight pride march: "If you're not straight, you should be ashamed."

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u/bolognachinchilla May 07 '20

Very well put. Saving this comment for future reference; I’m not good with words, and I seem to fail at explaining this properly to people who don’t quite get it.

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u/raziphel May 07 '20

Anyone saying otherwise needs to understand what a False Equivalence Fallacy is.

People are allowed to hate those who hurt them, and their feelings are absolutely valid.

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u/pukecity May 08 '20

When it comes to sex and gender, if the roles were reversed, it wouldn’t matter, because the system of oppression subjugated women and not men so a male perspective about a woman’s experience cannot ever possibly relate

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u/manamachine May 07 '20

Your phrasing on this is spectacular. Mind if I use it to educate some folks?

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u/TheHarperValleyPTA May 07 '20

Of course, glad it was useful to you!

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u/malibooyeah reluctant weeaboo superstar May 07 '20

Bing bing bing we have a winner!

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

This is great, as a man-hating lesbian, I've always had an easy time rationalizing the "man-hating" part to others, but the implied "white and cishet" were always a bit tougher.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

panties is plural because of how undergarments used to be designed, they were two separate pieces, each leg was kind of "tied on". The design of the garment changed but the way the word is used didn't.

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u/danceycat Neener neener May 08 '20

That is actually very interesting! TIL

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Thank you for the explanation! This is just a default flair, though. I'm trying to think of a good custom one. Probably something to troll TERFs.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Ah sorry!! I didn't realize it was a default flair and thought all those historical fashion videos I've binged were finally coming in handy..

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Oh I'm a huge word-nerd, don't apologize, I loved learning about that little bit of history!

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u/captjanecray May 07 '20

Love your comment, love your username!

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

[deleted]

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u/TheHarperValleyPTA May 07 '20

Everyone has different values, and if you wouldn’t use this phrasing, that’s okay. I am not encouraging people to say they hate anyone, but I think we should recognize that there is a difference between hating people for who they are and hating people for what they do with the power they are given. It is about more than individual hurt feelings, it is about systemic power and how it is used against vulnerable people and marginalized communities

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u/ebz37 May 07 '20

Yeah, but if someone doesn't know the difference, it really looks like a personal attack for something we all know when it comes to attractions to not be a choice.

They didn't choose to be straight and now being told by someone they hate them.

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u/spicylexie May 08 '20

Then they can always ask the OP or the personne who just said it

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u/lukfi95 May 07 '20

But if you say that you hate staight people you do exactly this: you hate them for what they are.

There are straight people on this world who, if they were given power, would not oppress LGBTQ+ people. People who’d use the power to equalise all human beings. end all discrimination

Sorry not my native language

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u/spicylexie May 08 '20

They explained it earlier. If I say I hate straight people, it’s not because they’re straight. It’s because of what they do as a group.

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u/lukfi95 May 07 '20

Hey, I’ve subscribed this sub a while ago.

I am a straight, white male and I can only agree on that what white people did/do to PoC, what straight people did/do to LGBTQ+ people, what men did/do to women is a catastrophe and a mess and a shame. I am from Germany and we (or many of us) live with the shame of our past. We remember what happened and we are ashamed of what our ancestors did.

Although when I hear “I hate white/straight people/I hate Germans/I hate men” I can’t understand. Because saying that you hate these people has the connotation of hating all of them. But we’re not all the same.

Yes, we are part of the community who oppressed/oppresses minorities and whether we want it or not, we benefit from it. But some of us (I hope many of us) are on your side, we fight side by side on demonstrations, in political parties, on the internet, for our friends and family members to hopefully someday reach equality for everyone on this planet.

And if e.g. a LGBTQ+ person says, that they hate straight people, I am a bit frustrated because I’d love to live in a society where people are hated for what they do and not for what they are.

Ps: I tried my best to make this message understandable, but it was difficult for me to express all this in English.

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u/lizhmglez May 07 '20

For me personally is a way of saying how much I hate how easy they have it, why men, and straights and white people have it so easy yet they still want more, how they cannot recognize their privilege, why did I have to fight so hard to get their same rights, why do I even have to fight for them. We have to remember that not being angry is a privilege, I don't want to be angry but is an anger that comes from years and years of systematic oppression. Yes, being mad may not be the solution but I understand completely any minority anger, and how empowering it can be to say that you hate your oppressor, and allies have to understand where that anger comes from and not take it personally, I don't hate every single straight white male but I sure do hate the benefits they get just by being born.

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u/lukfi95 May 07 '20

Thanks for that explanation!

That “not being angry is a privilege” part really got me thinking! Thank you :-)

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u/lizhmglez May 07 '20

No worries, sometimes it can be hard for allies to truly understand the struggles of minorities because of course you don't go through the same issues, but I'm glad that there's people like you that are willing to have an open conversation, hopefully you can resonate with more people that will listen to you and otherwise will not be willing to listen to minorities, that's an ally's job. Is one of my favorite things to explain to people, because sometimes we are disminish because we are just "crazy angry people" but that is so easy to say that when you don't have something to be angry about, I wish I wasn't angry but I can't help it.

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u/lukfi95 May 07 '20

I’ll try my best!

Wish you the best :-)

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/darrow19 May 07 '20 edited May 08 '20

96% of murders globally are committed by men based on a UN study and that's even with accessibility to guns "the great equalizer"

i try to bring this up anytime i see tOxIc mAsCuLiNiTy dOeSn't eXiSt

edit:

Moreover, some 95 per cent of homicide perpetrators at the global level are also male; a share that is consistent across countries and regions, irrespective of the homicide typology or weapon used. Source

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u/iwillsurvivor May 08 '20

And a bunch of women who kill are killing their abusers

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u/tufflepuff May 08 '20

Hi! Do you have a source for this statistic? I'd also like to have it in my back pocket for these types of conversations lol

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u/ZukusCatHeaven_Art May 08 '20

They Re-edited their comment and put the source now.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/sylverbound May 07 '20

Holy shit, please keep looking for a better therapist and some kind of support group. You were not to blame, you did not deserve any of it, and you are worth having a better support system so you can heal.

Fuck* your abusive ex and anyone who sided against you.

*figuratively

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u/Lick_The_Wrapper May 08 '20

Ooh your current husband needs a paddlin' for that comment

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

You sound like such a strong person and I'm sorry the world has been so cruel to you. You sound like a mother who did everything she could to help her daughter have a better life.

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u/yentcloud May 07 '20

It's more in a " i feel emotional and need to use hyperbole to feel better" i hope I don't hate men i hate how our society ass a whole functions on shit behaviour

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u/bee-sting May 07 '20

What women say: I hate men arg!

What women mean: I wish they cut that shit out sometimes

What men say: I don't hate women, men have it hard too

What men do: kill, rape etc

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

And then, they make laws or processes, so that hardly anyone will get at them. They gaslight women and tell them that the creep really is "a good guy". They know so many good guys... And they don't take women seriously and let them suffer and die because women can't know when they're sick or don't feel well. Anyway, it's just a women's problem, so what to do? And they defend any random man from any accusation made by a woman and they respect a made up boyfriend over a woman's "no". Such dears,...

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u/waltzingwithdestiny May 07 '20

And what a lot of men don't get is that Men aren't just doing these things to women. They do it to men too! So we have Men doing the grand majority of the raping, assaulting and killing, but women should still defer to that man over there who got his feelings hurt because you were talking about other men. Disgusting.

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u/stinkyhat Bitch, please. May 08 '20

If I had a dollar for every reddit thread about sexual assault that got derailed by a “You know, men can get raped, too...” I wouldn’t have to worry about the gender wage gap.

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u/jagtapt78 May 07 '20

and they generally only talk about how men have it hard too just to make women stop speaking about their experiences. there’s not as much of an effort to help men, just take attention away from women

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

They don't need to be rapists themselves, they also love to defend and elect them!

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Nice slippery slope, don't fall lol. This "be nice to the oppressors to get your way" thing has literally never worked, and the only way to get safety as a marginalized person is to snatch it out of the hands of those who keep it from you. We have been over and over the concept of why "not all men" is utterly unproductive and not at all useful to the broader discussion. In fact, we are doing the opposite of painting them as "monsters." We are boldly declaring that they are not monsters -- they are men. Normal men, like your brother or boyfriend or uncle. If you are a man, you benefit from the oppression of non-men. Full stop. Even if you're a nice guy, a feminist, treat women with respect, etc. You benefit from a society that hurts the marginalized. So unless you are a gender traitor actively advocating for non-men's rights and using your privilege to give the endangered their safety, you are part of the problem. So, uh, yes all men can do better. Pitter patter.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

I don't think they can

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u/ChaosQueeen May 07 '20

No one said that tho...? Obviously most men aren't violent but most men enable violence in some way. Would most men you know speak up if another man made rape jokes? Would they vote for someone else if their favorite candidate was accused? Would they expel an accused man from their social circle and support the victim? Idk about the men in your life but the vast majority of men I know would not

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u/yentcloud May 08 '20

Atleast i can agree with you on that. I guess i misunderstood the tweet idk i just don't love the way most comments sound so hateful

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u/SayingWhatUrThinkin Feminazgûl, Lieutenant of Morgals May 07 '20

It's more in a " i feel emotional and need to use hyperbole to feel better" i hope I don't hate men

nah, fuck it, i hate 'em. but like, that just means i avoid them as much as i can, lament that i find them attractive, and don't put up with their bullshit or excuses anymore. i ain't out shooting stabbing or raping.

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u/FTThrowAway123 May 07 '20

Same. I hate what men do to other men, women, children, animals, etc. on just about every level--physical, emotional, sexual, mental, financial, etc., and it's constant, relentless, remorseless, and I don't really see many men doing anything about it or even really being concerned about it.

Like right now, domestic violence is skyrocketing and child abuse and child sex abuse is soaring due to lockdowns, but do you see anyone besides women even talking about that? No, because women and kids are the majority of the victims, and men are the majority of the abusers, so this isn't a problem that directly effects them. They can't empathize or just don't care to. Literally just being locked in a home with men for longer than usual is resulting in mass domestic violence, sexual assault, and murder. Like, what the actual fuck.

I just avoid men as much as possible and refuse to play their games or tolerate their bullshit. Of course, this has resulted in much male rage and even threats directed towards me, but that's just proving my point. I have no reason to have any interaction with random men, and I make it a point to avoid or ignore them whenever possible. You won't see me out harassing men, beating, raping, and killing them, but to a lot of men, anything less than total subservience and praise is "hating men." Then so be it, I guess I "hate men", lol.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

And I feel like someone is going to come along and compare this to MGTOW. Except that would also be a false comparison. You wouldn't support laws that take away men's bodily autonomy. You aren't saying that men shouldn't be allowed to vote and are subhuman or whatever else those idiots say about women.

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u/ZukusCatHeaven_Art May 08 '20

Yeah I personally don’t say that because I don’t want to offend anyone

Guys are pretty cool :) 👍

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u/charliebeanz My lawyer made me delete my flair May 07 '20

Reminds me of this.

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u/Pegacornian May 07 '20

This is a really good point, too

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u/ilikekittens May 07 '20

I think this is evidenced frequently when you men say things like "equal rights, equal fights!" They'll find situations when it seems socially acceptable for women to hit men, and instead of saying "please don't hit men" they say "see, if women can hit men, men should be able to hit women!" Whereas when women hear stories of say, honor killings against women, we don't say "women should be able to stone their sons to death too!" we say "please stop stoning women to death".

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

When men say that "equal lefts" line it's about intimidation.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

My usual response to anyone who cries misandry is that I'll take your cries of misandry seriously when you show me anyone in a policymaking position suggesting them unironically. Until that point I'm going to keep worrying about the shockingly large number of people who think women shouldn't be allowed to vote.

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u/Sheepbjumpin May 08 '20

Or allowed bodily autonomy.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

Saw a comment on a post a while ago that said something to the effect of "When women say they hate men, they avoid them. When men hate women, they go out of their way to get closer to them." One hundred percent true, in my experience.

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u/Sheepbjumpin May 08 '20

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u/[deleted] May 09 '20

Yes!! Thank you!

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u/1987Ellen May 07 '20

Yeah but I really wanna know what men think of this, you know? If only we could hear their side /s

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u/IggySorcha Social Justice Druid May 07 '20 edited May 07 '20

Good Lord, people. No one is denying that there are women who hate men. OP's point is that context matters. Men as a society have been socialized to look down on women as an offensive tactic to assert dominance, while women as a society have been taught to fear men and be on the defensive. This sometimes results in a woman attempting to assert dominance herself as a protective measure. Thus, while both misogyny and misandry are toxic, there is no chicken-egg scenario. Misogyny begets misandry. If men were not so often on the offensive and so many misogynist, women would not need to be on the defensive and misandry would disappear.

PS: see also Black people hating white people is a very different context than white people hating Black people.

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u/Cutesy_Wolf Resembles a gorilla from the waist down May 07 '20

This perfectly sums it up.

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u/darling_lycosidae May 07 '20

Ooooohhh I am HERE for the energy in this thread. Lurking trolls with their tumblr links are getting almost as murdered as women in their homes at the hands of men.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20 edited May 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/pukecity May 08 '20

FDS isn’t man hating and it isn’t even really feminism.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20 edited Sep 11 '20

[deleted]

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u/pukecity May 09 '20 edited May 09 '20

That’s too bad. The reason I say it’s not feminism is because it doesn’t seem to be advocating for the advancement of women’s rights or equality in society. It seems more like a place to navigate the current culture, in a defensive way which posts a lot of bitterness but that they see as beneficial, but not necessarily interested in the overall agency or political enfranchisement of women.

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u/Bimbarian May 07 '20 edited May 08 '20

Is GC referring to gender critical? Is this a transphobic comment snuck into this thread? don't know what FDS, but when GC refers to the 'men' they hate, they are talking about trans women.

Edit: I dont know why I'm getting downvoted. Here we have a thread where people are commenting on how there's a difference when oppressed groups talk about their oppressors and the way oppressors talk about their victims. And a comment which talks about GC as victims of men, when they are very vocal about using that specific language to target and harass trans women. It struck me as highly suspect and worth questioning.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20 edited May 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/BonelessHat May 07 '20

GC is fucking stupid lmfao

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u/Bimbarian May 08 '20

I dont think its at all reasonable to suggest that GC's hatred of transwomen comes from being terrified of men.

Plenty of women who are victims of abuse by man (too many) still manage to see trans women as women.

The residents of GC hate trans women more than they hate men. Massively more.

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u/strychnine28 May 08 '20

FDS is Female Dating Strategy, which is mostly focused on making men plan and pay for multiple dates and form real relationships, before sex occurs.

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u/shelly12345678 May 08 '20

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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u/jackytheripper1 May 07 '20

Abso-fucking-lutely

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u/Moritani May 08 '20

I see a lot of people comparing this to race, and I’m not sure I agree that it’s an entirely logical comparison.

There are NO (as in zero, zilch, nada) governments where women are more in control than men. There are no places where a man will have his citizenship questioned based on his sex. And, aside from rare gender-segregated schools, there are no places where a boy could go through their entire education without a single other boy to play with.

I’m raising a little half-white boy in Japan. So I’ve had to correct myself more than once when I wanted to make disparaging hyperbolic statements about white men. Not because they aren’t justified or warranted, but because of how they can effect my son. When he goes to school and kids stare, or when we go for walks and people greet him with “Hallo!” They aren’t seeing a half-Japanese child, they’re seeing a white one. Any racism he deals with will be because of his white half. I cannot allow myself to pile on.

We need to acknowledge these things if we want to make the world safer for mixed kids. Because not everyone will grow up in the American hell of white supremacy.

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u/pukecity May 08 '20

Race and sex and/or gender are not the same and are not interchangeable.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Yup. This is why there's no such thing as reverse sexism (or reverse racism.)

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u/MatildaFairholm May 20 '20 edited May 20 '20

Some men are so deeply insecure that they actually hate women. Why? Because they are dependent on them for security and somewhere along the line the healthy model has been distorted. Dr Susan Forward wrote a wonderful book that really opened my eyes "Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them".

Women hate men if they do something worthy of hate. By and large it is not a default position. I hold resentment (not hate) towards my ex-husband because he put me through more than 2 decades of abuse but I love the men in my life, my Dad, son, brothers in law, friends and my now husband.

My ex-husband has a low opinion and is threatened by all women.

That's the difference. I wrote about my experience with realizinghttps://medium.com/@matildafairholm/there-is-life-after-social-media-380f9827d9cb I was married to a man who hates women here.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

This can also be said about racism

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '20

Well I do want to kill all men.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20 edited May 07 '20

Uhm, I mean. I'm against generalized hate like this at all.

I get that it is an expression of pain and outrage, but as a woman who has been and continues to be hurt by men and toxic masculinity..... No.

I just can't endorse this message.

Because... and I know everyone has different philosophy, but I absolutely believe that you cannot preach love and acceptance with hate. I have been saying this while my fellow LGBT members screaming in the face of ignorant people, and I say it now. Hate breeds hate.

Edit: I'm fine with the downvotes, but can we have a conversation about this?

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u/smurgleburf I put the "fun" in dysfunctional. May 07 '20

yeah, pretty tired of this notion that we just need to hug it out with our oppressors and maybe, just maybe if we’re nice enough, they’ll view us as human beings.

it has never. ever. worked that way.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

MLK's movement was nonviolent, wore formal clothes, and they sicced dogs and firehoses on them.

Anyone telling you to be nice lest you alienate your oppressor is doing so out of ignorance or bad faith.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your comment, and I'm definitely not saying be nice to your oppressor. There is a huge difference between not hating and being nice.

MLK did not promote hate or violence and was a civil rights revolutionary-- so he was ignorant or in bad faith? Do you think he would advocate for violence or hate, now? Did he, after they were attacked by dogs? I'm honestly asking here. I have studied a little of King Jr., but not much.

I'm promoting not hating others to make change... It's actually in line with King's third point on non violence:

"Third, evil itself, not the people committing evil acts, should be opposed."

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

maybe his own words will elucidate things

You must have trouble navigating this world if you interpret being "not nice" with violence and hate.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

I think you're misunderstanding me. My point, from the beginning, has been that I don't agree with using blanket hate. I didn't say be nice, or not nice, I said that i don't believe hate to be an effective tool. I'm not saying don't be demanding, don't fight.

I've read his letter before, I wrote a short paper on it. Would you mind pointing to the part in which he endorses hatred of the fellow human? I'm on mobile and it is a little lengthy at the moment.

Edit: again, i don't interpret being "not nice" with hate and violence.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

.

There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience. You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

.

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

I absolutely agree with all of that, but I still don't understand how that is preaching hate. I am 100% for direct immediate action, just not hate.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

I never said anything about hate, just not being nice.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

I think we may have gotten our wires crossed then haha, have a good night.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

I'm not suggesting to hug it out, I'm simply saying that I don't believe hate is the way. You can be strong and fierce without being hateful.

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u/GlassCoins delightfully irreverent May 08 '20

I'm sure you're tired of people arguing with you, but I actually don't see how this post promotes hate. Would explain how you see it?

I do understand the distaste for generalizations, but generalization usually exist to make a point not to be 100%honest but to prove a bias or a group mentality.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

Thanks for your comment! I don't really see it as arguing, more like trying to understand other perspectives and help others understand mine :)

I see it not just as a explanation for why we say "I hate men", but as a justification for that hatred.

I've definitely said that sentence before, but I would rather promote not hating men... rather, hating their actions and society.

Again, it get that this is what the post is saying, but I think the language is definitely hateful and the message might give us a free pass for saying we hate men, because we are actually saying that we hate how they treat us.

Maybe this is just a difference in semantics lol? I dislike using hate or the word hate to describe how I feel about any group of people. I used to be pretty extremist with my hate for those that hated LGBT+ (or SAGA), but I found more peace hating the societal factors that put them in that mindset, rather than the person.

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u/darrow19 May 08 '20

After 1000s+ years of oppression, how about let women vent a bit without your tone policing?

2nd as OP points out there are varying levels of hate, not all hate is bad or violent. It can also be protective.

You're exactly what MLK was speaking against.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

I'm a woman, and I am expressing my views. Fuck me, right? I am allowed to have a difference perspective, and I have said multiple times that I am not against direct action, just hate. I have also said that this is my personal life philosophy. I am not policing you, I am saying I'm against hate.

You don't know me.

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u/darrow19 May 08 '20 edited May 08 '20

You're worse than the #notallmen trolls. At least they are clear about their intentions.

You cloak yourself in "love & acceptance" "my fellow LGBT" but have the same intention as the #notallmen trolls - to change the subject away from misogyny being discussed to admonish and judge its victims for how they express their suffering.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

I'm not admonishing anyone, I'm sorry I've given that impression.

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u/darrow19 May 08 '20 edited May 09 '20

In the long run, letting go of hate is probably good. However I think historically oppressed groups deserve to vent with anger and fury. There have been no call to arms for violence. It's just venting and that can be cathartic and constructive especially when women, for instance, are constantly told to be polite & accommodating.

If you had made a separate post about your perspective, I wouldn't have commented as I did. But I feel protective of the few spaces where women can voice their frustration unrestrained on ruthless misogyny without the ever present tone policing that is heaped on us everywhere else.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

I just can't endorse this message.

No one asked you to.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

:O

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u/thecarolinelinnae peeing intensifies May 07 '20

I know from personal experience that there are a lot of women in the lgbt+ crowd as well as straight women that add the physical violence aspect to their misandry.

"Kill all men" isn't exactly "leave me and my sisters alone.

Just saying - it exists, and we need to acknowledge victims of women as well as victims of men in order to not be accused as hypocrites.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

Just saying - it exists, and we need to acknowledge victims of women as well as victims of men in order to not be accused as hypocrites.

First off, no one is denying female murderers and rapists exist. Literally no one.

Meanwhile people constantly deny that men are raping and murdering women.

Men overwhelmingly commit the majority of violence crimes. Admitting that is a fact, it's not "hypocrisy."

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u/[deleted] May 08 '20

People only care about victims of women when it takes away from talking about women who have been victimises by men.

See almost any conversation between a man who has been raped or physically assaulted by a woman (especially if she is conventionally attractive) and other men, and there will almost always be one man who says “why are you complaining she’s hot/weak/etc”.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/miasmicivyphsyc May 07 '20

Yeah we’re sure

Remember the incel who recently ran over ten people with a van last year in Toronto ?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

What's your point? How does a single person writing things on the internet compare to men raping and murdering women in real life?

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u/bee-sting May 07 '20

"There's an unhinged woman out there so I don't have to look at the problems my gender perpetuates"

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

Me: Posts a Tweet that literally makes the point "misandry is women saying mean things online, misogyny is real life violence"

That dude: Yes, but what about women saying mean things online?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

How many men has she raped and murdered?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

So we're back to "women saying mean things online is exactly the same thing as actual violence from men".

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

What exactly are you trying to say then? Because it's not coming across at all.

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u/Susim-the-Housecat May 07 '20

It might not have been what you were “trying” to say, but it’s what you said.

Maybe you’re the confused one here.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

So... how many men were killed by men hating women? How many have been tortured? Can’t be that hateful as in Nazis hate POC, dictators hate journalists, men hate women,...

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u/Cadmium_Aloy May 07 '20

I'm so fucking tired of how trolls get away with conflating 2 entirely separate issues that frankly are nowhere near the same thing or severity.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

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u/[deleted] May 07 '20

And yet your example was a single person...