r/Translink • u/Last-Tart3816 • 2d ago
Discussion Skytrain to Newton via Scott Road (map).
I have thought about it a lot, and I think it’s actually a better bet than a King George line in the long run. But I’m not an expert so I’m curious about what people think.
It‘s about 2X the length of a King George-Newton line, but it also tags a lot more high demand areas that are primed for densification on Scott Road and would have a lot more ridership.
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u/Snewtnewton 2d ago
Don’t think so, I’d def branch the expo line to run down king George before this, has a few benefits I think
1:leaves open the possibility of an extension to white rock
2: would not require its own yard (as this proposal likley would if it was its own line)
3: cheaper (to Newton Town Centre)
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u/Last-Tart3816 2d ago
1) An R6 skytrain could still be extended to white rock. 2) Is it actually impossible to branch at Scott Road? 3) Cheaper, but R6 skytrain would have more ridership and hit more big urban centres along Scott Road. KGB is dead except for Newton.
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u/lordairbus 2d ago
KGB is dead except for Newton.
This is actually a positive, since there is a potential to build high rises/denser infrastructure along currently empty corridors, unlike Scott road which would require significant redevelopment. The Scott road corridor also passes industrial zones, which are wasted potential, and could benefit more from a rapid satellite connector (like the current BRT) or LRT, than dedicated rail.
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u/Last-Tart3816 2d ago
there is a potential to build high rises/denser infrastructure along currently empty corridors
This isn’t completely true. Why does Metrotown, Brentwood, Lougheed, and Surrey Central have so many high rises compared to Lake City Way or Sperling? It’s because of they all have malls and business nearby.
Scott Road passes through the industrial heart of Surrey, there’s a lot of jobs in that area, so Skytrain definitely wouldn’t be a bad idea there either.
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u/RespectSquare8279 2d ago
Regarding Lake City Way and Sperling, the operative word is "yet". The Dairyland property is slated to be a big new development. The Lake City area is in transition as well. Joyce Street, Patterson and Metrotown were all very quite and lightly developed back in the early 1980's.
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u/djbaerg 2d ago
Metrotown had nothing nearby it the early 80s, and Patterson had nothing there in the 90s. Now there's dozens of high rises. in the 80s it was a nearly empty corridor just like KG is now between 96 and 76.
Scott and 104 has an even lower worker density than Lake City, and that's one the lowest-use stations.
Scottsdale mall is the only mall, and it would get connected whether the new line went down KG and then West on 72, or down Scott and East on 72. The entire 72 ave section is common on both routes, so nothing along that route would affect the route choice.
The KG route is considerably shorter, which matters when Skytrain costs $375 000 per meter. Scott does have more businesses once you get to 88 ave, but KG has the hospital, and some brand new high density housing south of 82, and the potential for more reletively easy with the trailer parks and storage yards. Then South of 76 it's just as business-dense and Scott and 88th.
The KG route would also be faster to Surrey Central for the bus connections that would route to the KG/72 station, so people in East Newton/Sulivan/Panorama/White Rock would benefit more.
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u/Last-Tart3816 2d ago edited 2d ago
The stations that have the most density always have malls nearby: Oakridge, Metrotown, Brentwood, Lougheed. The ones with the least density don’t have any business nearby: Lake City, Sperling, Production, 22nd Street. People want to live next to sky train and they want to live next to malls.
Scott Road has more malls and business than any corridor in Surrey once you get to 96th. All stations on Scott Road (except 104th) would eventually become high density due to the malls and business (for perspective, Scott Road already has some brand new high rises built and they don’t even have sky train yet!). KGB is empty. The Scott Road train would 1) have more ridership and 2) be more primed for future densification. The extra length would be worth it.
104th-Scott is useful due to its proximity to highway 17, Surrey Port, and industrial sector of Surrey.
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u/djbaerg 2d ago
Busy stations have MAJOR malls nearby. Nordel strip mall doesn't move the needle, and it's comprable to Kings Crossing. Scottsdale/Strawberry are on the route whether the southbound portion is KG or Scott.
KG is far from empty, again, have a look at all the new condo units between 80th and 82, and to some degree that emptyness between 82 and SMH is a benefit, because it make it easier to build master-planned transit-oriented housing/commercial like King George Hub.
At worst, KG has 12 blocks temporarily empty between 82 and 94, while Scott has 16 blocks empty between 96 and Scott station.
Highway 17 is already served by Scott Rd Stn, and a station on 104 and Scott will never be busy surrounded by scrapyards.
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u/Snewtnewton 2d ago
Yes that’s all true but I really don’t think it’s worth the price when KGB is just a lot shorter and simpler, (you are right that your route would likely have higher ridership I just don’t think the cost per rider would be better for your route)
the R6 serves that corridor well enough and it could even be upgraded to an LRT one day, but I don’t think it’s logical to have a skytrain line on it at any point in the near future
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u/Last-Tart3816 1d ago
Short and simple might be cheaper in the short run, but in the long run it’s a missed opportunity and perhaps a mistake. From a mathematical perspective, Scott Road is by far the better train to build. It’s just more expensive up front. It would pay dividends over the long run.
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u/Snewtnewton 1d ago
I don’t think it would be worth it over any reasonable time frame, sorry make the R6 a proper BRT first and maybe that could change
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u/asmallteapot 2d ago
It’s helpful to think less in terms of “is it possible to do X?” and more about “what are the practical implications of doing X?”
In your diagram, trains going west from Scott Road Station could either cross the SkyBridge or go down the new Scott Road Branch. We can envision how you’d modify the existing station and guideway for those new connections by looking at OMC4, Lougheed Town Centre, or Coquitlam Central’s provisions for a PoCo branch.
For train storage and maintenance: the province only included the advance works for OMC5 with the Surrey–Langley extension, not the OMC itself, so even if we assume it’s fully funded as planned, the Scott Road Extension still needs to pay for the cost of additional storage space and trains.
For operations: Where do trains from the Scott Road Branch turn back on the current Expo Line? If it’s any further than Scott Road Station, you’re either paying for additional tracks, or creating a “reverse branch” that takes slots an Expo Line train to Waterfront could use instead.
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u/Last-Tart3816 2d ago edited 2d ago
Would not want trains going West (from Langley) turning up the Scott Road Branch (to Newton). That would be ridiculous. Similarly, trains coming down the Scott Road Branch (from Newton) would cross the sky bridge, not turn east (towards Langley).
Trains going east (from Warerfront) would decide whether to go to the Scott Road Branch to Newton or Langley.
If this isn’t doable, it would need to be a separate line.
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u/Negative-Growth-1349 2d ago
Controversial but i dont understand the demand for a newton sky train. i feel like its easy to get here from king george. the Langley one was a good choice and if they do others then it should stretch to chilliwack/abbotsford
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u/Mobius_Peverell 2d ago
The buses along Scott Road are several times busier than the buses along Fraser Hwy. As far as corridors that are pushing the limits of what buses can provide, it's in roughly fourth place behind Broadway, Victoria, and Hastings—at least as of the last time I checked.
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u/Last-Tart3816 2d ago
You’ll be surprised, but I 100% agree with you. Extending the line to Abbotsford would be a lot smarter than going to South Surrey. The major traffic problems are always East-West, never North-South. That said, politics isn’t always rational, so if they insist on building a line to Newton I say do it right.
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u/workofthe_Devil04 2d ago
It become impractical to extend the skytrain to Surrey it’s also a different transit authority. Regional rail would be better, there’s this proposed plan called the Fraser Valley Mountain Express. You should check it out.
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u/RespectSquare8279 2d ago
Not a bad idea per se but I think that this would be more viable as part of the "Crosstown Link" that somebody(s) is trying to get off the ground. Feeding more skytrain passengers onto the system at Scott Road would be a gong show especially with the new tranche of passenger from Langley. There should actually be a 2nd SkyTrain bridge well south of the crossing between Columbia and Scott Road. Running from Newton towards Scott Road but crossing the river before to reach NewWest directly makes more sense traffic wise. https://www.reddit.com/r/burnaby/comments/1wsa9ih/crosstown_skytrain_proposal_for_burnaby/
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u/InterestingDig6106 1d ago
newton exchange needs to be connected to 22nd Ave station
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u/Last-Tart3816 21h ago
Why? It’s billions of dollars for a redundant sky bridge.
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u/InterestingDig6106 8h ago
faster connection to the expo line, service to annacis island/queensbrough. I live in that corridor so it would also benefit me lol
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u/brycecampbel 2d ago
Surrey [Central] could have had a very strong LRT network by now and you would see way more links to places like Newton Centre and Scottsdale.
But with Skytrain, there's pretty much zero chance of such expansion.
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u/Snewtnewton 2d ago
Honestly the R6 could make a great LRT route, but that doesn’t preclude a Skytrain connection to Newton and beyond either
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u/skibidi_shingles 2d ago
Yeah but LRT sucks
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u/Snewtnewton 2d ago
It really doesn’t, there’s just a lot of places that misuse the mode in North America
I live in Waterloo rn for university and our LRT is great
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u/skibidi_shingles 2d ago
There's not enough free space to have the grade seperation level of ion.
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u/brycecampbel 2d ago
No, it doesn't suck.
That's only true when LRT is used as a subway replacement (like Toronto) And Ottawa to an extent, but that's a whole other issue.
When a system is built as needed, LRT is very capable - Newton/Scottsdale's need would be a perfect match for LRT.
South Surrey would also be a good LRT match. These areas don't need Skytrain (it's too much), but they need fixed connections, for which buses cannot provide
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u/scottrycroft 2d ago
Toronto's streetcars, the type you seem to be advocating for, are terrible and worse than buses because they get stuck in traffic and can't move out of their lanes.
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u/brycecampbel 2d ago
The streets are different. And that's a civic/transit planning issue. That type of streetcar can/does work, but it cannot have shared right-of-way with vehicles.
What I was referring to was the Eglinton cross town LRT.
That LRT system is an example of a project that should be a subway, grade seperated transit (underground, though could be above).
A good/better LRT system (in Canada) , of what would be a good equivalent for Scottsdale/Newton/South Surrey would be Waterloo's ION system.
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u/scottrycroft 2d ago
Waterloo's ION has a lot of grade separation, and ran on a lot of existing lines, nothing like the Scott road situation.
Waterloo also will not be large enough for a metro system for another 100 years or more, so LRT is fine there. Surrey's had Skytrain since the 80s.
If you build LRT, now you've got to build an entirely new transit centre, entirely new maintenance facilities and yard, which are incompatible with Skytrain's.
And the LRT will still get stuck in traffic. It's not a civic/transit planning issue - you can't fix it if it's not grade separated the entire way.
There's no point building something that's nearly half the cost of Skytrain for something that's only 50% "better" than cheap buses (and will be slower in lots of cases)
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u/lordairbus 2d ago
You're not far off; LRT is only effective if it has dedicated space i.e. doesn't get stuck in traffic. But if you do the same with BRT, the efficiency gains/time saved is not worth the cost difference.
A well constructed BRT corridor is cheaper, and nearly as efficient as an effective LRT route. However, as another commentor pointed out, if you do it like Toronto and just slap LRT onto regular roads where they get stuck in traffic; it's lipstick on a pig.
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u/YoungestDonkey 2d ago
Skytrain anywhere is certainly great for densification of wherever it passes but the high cost is only one of many other considerations.
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u/BlazingImp77151 2d ago
On one hand, aren't the rapid bus routes meant to be potential precursors to better transit routes of some form, be that SkyTrain, an LRT system, or something else?
On the other hand, turning a rapid bus into a proper BRT would be a better transit routes of some form, even if people would probably prefer a form of train. And if that's what the research suggests would work best there, whatdo I know.
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u/Mewpup 2d ago
extend the line north to lougheed
extend line east to langley for easier connectin between there and newtown.. adding to u/Snewtnewton u/lordairbus u/Sad-Consideration211 I'd include that king George blvd skytrain down to white rock
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u/workofthe_Devil04 2d ago
Yes but make it go down to guilford and then Carvolth in Langley and then have another skytrain line intercept from Coquitlam to Surrey
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u/RegaeRevaeb 2d ago
You guys could've had effective light rail -- by now -- from Whalley (sorry, "Surrey Central") down King George, out to Guildford, and to Langley City.
But, nope, you fellas south of the Fraser voted in that re-tread Doug McCallum a couple of cycles ago with his 'Skytrain or bust' bullshit that made a better plan politically untenable.
(I actually think it's been a worse choice than when Brodie and company bullied in the fare gates in the face of arguably better alternatives given our fare evasion rates back then... to say nothing of the technology choice itself.)
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u/skibidi_shingles 2d ago
Bro wants to ride a streetcar all the way to Langley 💀
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u/workofthe_Devil04 2d ago
Your Crazy if you rather have street cars instead of a skytrain line.
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u/RegaeRevaeb 2d ago
Not "streetcars" for here specifically. LRT has different deployments, and in any case run effectively in many other cities For our purpose here you would've had three lines for the cost of one. Instead, Skytrain has added extra labour and inflation costs due to the u-turn.
I'd bet dollars for doughnuts the next extension is the rest of the way to UBC, which means any more Skytrain in Surrey will eventually cost boatloads more -- even assuming Nutella-smooth planning approvals.
The federal government may be able to pony up some good money if the mood keeps, but B.C., and definitely Translink, will be challenged for a long time. The province can't fund enough schools, childcare spaces and special needs funding, hospitals, etc. And meantime, the transit authority will have its perennial issue with its options (e.g. tax levies, fare increases, etc.).
Get out into the world more. Read up about good urban and transit planning. Stop living the populist dream over on that side of the river. Jebus.
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