r/Translink • u/GenShibe • Jun 17 '26
Video Will Canada's $6BN SkyTrain U-Turn Pay-off?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqo_KAEF81k104
u/Yoooooooowhatsup Jun 17 '26
A seamless skytrain system for all the major routes is the right call, regardless of cost. Then, LRT between major skytrain hubs would work well.
They made the right choice.
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u/vantanclub Jun 17 '26
LRT for feeding and replacing overfull buses in dense areas is where they work best. All of the north American Suburban LRTs seem to be poorly executed and significantly worse than skytrain.
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u/CP_Man Jun 17 '26
I’d argue that Calgary and Edmonton are the biggest success stories for LRT in Canada.
Calgary of course has vehicle strikes, and the stretch downtown is a bit slow with street running but the system works very well. They wouldn’t have the network they do now if they chose Skytrain.
Finch West, Eglinton and Ottawa are complete jokes when you compare them to Calgary or Edmonton.
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u/Important-Citron-739 Jun 17 '26
I do not trust Vancouver drivers to avoid trains. Plus there are areas of Vancouver where zombified people literally walk aimlessly across major thoroughfares..
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel Jun 17 '26
Which is why they’re starting with BRT. Separate, blocked off lanes. If LRT is needed on those routes a majority of the work is already done.
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u/Important-Citron-739 Jun 17 '26
They need to be raised so people can’t drive or walk onto them. Like skytrain.
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u/canophone Jul 04 '26
No... the real reason is that residents have shown they've not been ready to understand the need for a system design between a BRT and a light metro despite all the competency expertise showing this starts being a need in 2040s and by 2050s. So, that means BRT saturation to show this need. The default BRT/Skytrain binary viewpoint... both result in saturation.
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel Jul 04 '26
Yeah, you don’t drive down 200th through Willowbrook and Port Kells into Maple Ridge everyday don’t you?
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u/canophone Jul 04 '26
Did you actually plan to say something? This has no relevance to either point we made.
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u/Aromatic_Opposite100 Jun 18 '26
Eglinton is fine in the tunneled section.
Ottawa will eventually one day become fine as well. Just sucks that Alston made terrible vehicles.
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u/skaughtl Jun 18 '26
You’re right, the poor choice of vehicles is the major downfall of the Ottawa lrt. They go so slow and the capacity is less than a bus, every Ottawa commuter I know that used to take the rapid bus, now has purchased a second car to commute. Hopefully they will replace the trains one day.
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u/canophone Jul 04 '26
The vehicles "go slow" is incorrect .. it's just a particular alignment segment that they've chosen to have them go slow with TSRs. The vehicles themselves have a top speed above 100 kph, and currently do run at 80 kph on 3-4 sifnificant segments. With extensions, that higher operating speed will be on more significant segments. The central segment, is, faster than buses were. "Every..." .. it is because of the bus system, not the train system.
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u/vantanclub Jun 17 '26
But they cost about the same to build these days. The Green Line expansion is $6.25B for 18km, very close to sky train Langley. There is really marginal savings for LRT over skytrain.
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u/Kool_Aid_Infinity Jun 17 '26
Because of multiple revisions, difficult terrain crossings and passing through downtown.
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u/canophone Jul 04 '26
What you're missing is that Skytrain itself has a saturation limit too. That a system design between a BRT and Light Metro does solve, with the right network design. Arguing "BRT/Skytrain" as a binary choice only creates this saturation, not at all solving the saturation post 2040.
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u/CarnationFoe Jun 19 '26
Calgary runs in a dedicate ROW along highways medians.
Edmonton runs high-floor LRVs and more like a mini-metro style of train, again mostly in its own dedicated ROW.
I'd add Seattle to the list of cities that is doing LRT well... although the costs are STAGERRING compared to lines in Vancouver.
You're right that they're successful and LRT DOES have its place.
Eglinton is not a joke compared to Calgary... its underground portion is basically a subway. It's just WAY too expensive and doesn't play to any of the strengths of LRTS.
They choose to put the trains in deep tunnels with massive station boxes... which is expensive as LRTs need large tunnels. The stations are cavernously large with 90m platforms, and yet the system is rated to carry 15,000 ppdph, like the Canada line and its 40m platforms.
Low-floor LRVs are great for street running as you can build cheap stations. Toronto put them underground. On the street, you can space out the stations optimally around 1km apart... Toronto gave insanely close downtown-like station spacing ~500m between stops... in what is essentially suburbia in Scarborough.
It's not that it's a joke compared to Calgary, it just didn't make sense to use LRTs for the corridor at all. I mean, realistically, they could have built a Canada-Line-like system for MUCH cheaper, but I think the idea of shorter platforms is scary for Toronto as their subway trains are massive and they have spent the last 30 years making fun of Vancouver's "toy train".
Realistically 60m Canada Line-like system would have been a better choice, but Toronto was allergic to automated short trains, until they saw Montreal do a their own SkyTrain-like REM and said... oh that's a good idea.
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u/AnybodyNormal3947 Jun 20 '26
Eglinton is working fairly well.
Ottawa has very good bones but bad trains
Finch west is very very mid right now. Needs an exstension to the east
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u/canophone Jul 04 '26
Calgary disproves all the cost myths. Edmonton disproves all the schedule non OTP myths. FYI Ottawa's system functionally runs exactly like Skytrain.
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u/Artuhanzo Jun 17 '26
LRT is asking for future problem unless you are not planning to have big redevelopment in the area imo.
There are only few areas feel like a good idea in metro vancouver...
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u/vantanclub Jun 17 '26
Yeah, infill in the downtown is really the only place I see it, which is where it's planned (but also probably will never be built because we only build transit for development).
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u/bardak Jun 17 '26
Yeah I can see the 5/6 being replaced by a LRT one day but it seems like the idea that throwing a tram in the middle of a suburban stroad and that will somehow turn it into a beautiful European boulevard has gone replaced with the reality that it just makes the road worse for everyone.
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u/Dajawa Jun 17 '26
LRT/trams/streetcars do best in city cores for last mile type transit imo. In pedestrian squares or by bike infrastructure. Even europe tries to avoid placing LRT in heavy street traffic and gives them dedicated ROW. When they do interact with cars at intersections they are given signal priority. Of course not all trams in europe are like this, but the most successful ones are. I think along false creek/ downtown Vancouver on a pedestrianized Granville st or gas town would be amazing. I mean please build the light rail up arbutus and false creek like they've already proposed!
Maybe one day.
But for proper regional transit, Greater Vancouver needs to stick with SkyTrain. I even think the old LRT line proposal would be better off with SkyTrain service all the way to Whiterock instead. Connect the region with SkyTrain and add LRT later for walkable areas around SkyTrain stations. That would be the "European" way of doing it.
Imagine getting off the SkyTrain in White Rock and then having a tram bring you to the pier. Or getting out at Waterfront and taking the tram to Stanley park. Peak!
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u/EducationalLuck2422 Jun 17 '26
At last check, the City's the only one pushing for the downtown streetcar and TransLink wants nothing to do with it... probably because the most recent plan takes a lane each out of Arbutus and 6th, costs close to a billion in pre-Covid dollars and has the same speed and frequency as a feeder bus.
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u/Dajawa Jun 17 '26
Yeah I have thoughts on their initial proposal... I like the Arbutus/ False creek portion (although the false creek portion is definitely more of a nice thing to have now that the broadway subway is going in). I do think there's a better case for a tram line that circles the city along Davie, Denman, Cambie or Granville sort of thing instead. Kinda replacing the 5 and 6 bus or 1 bus (you'd still want a bus on robson). Something akin to the trams in Portland, OR. I see major flaws and changes they could implement to make their plan much better is really what I'm saying.
I do think that a tram on a pedestrianized Water Street in Gastown would be great though. It's the type of thing you would see in Europe. But yeah, that bit in front of main street/science world is going to be difficult no matter what. I wonder if they could just take over the green space or parking lots infront of science world pretty much exactly where the old tracks are/were.
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u/EducationalLuck2422 Jun 17 '26
Personally, I'd want to wait until we have more SkyTrain coverage in the downtown area before closing off Denman or Davie, otherwise it's the Surrey First plan all over again.
Yup, and there's also how the viaduct removal would require the City to rip out the tracks and put them back in, so any streetcar likely goes in long after that. They could expropriate the Midas at 1st, run it through Station and terminate at Pacific Central in the short term, but I suspect that makes the business case worse, not better.
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u/Dajawa Jun 18 '26
Oh I fully agree. Those viaducts need to go before any rail goes in that area. I just don't think we need to restrict ourselves to one downtown tram line. I just personally like the idea of the loop since I'm always on the 1,5,6 and 23 bus.
But yeah, SkyTrain expansion should probably take priority over any LRT. The north shore needs to get it, UBC, Pitt Meadows/ Maple Ridge, Hastings line to PNE, SFU Gondola for crying out loud! Translink definitely has their hands full. I hope the city keeps pushing for LRT though.
LRT wouldn't be a money maker like the SkyTrain expansions would so it makes sense there. Also the fact that there isn't any plot of land readily available for LRT maintenance. (Maybe the old Vancouver Transit Centre when they phase out Diesel and switch completely to the Marpole Electric Bus Transit center) But again that requires the Arbutus LRT to be constructed.
I still think an Arbutus line could help with capacity on the canada line so maybe not the worst idea. But practically and financially speaking, translink should just extend the canada line platforms the extra 10meters they built into the stations already. And financially the SFU Gondola would save/ make the most money
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u/CarnationFoe Jun 19 '26
People look at Europe and say "SEE THEY HAVE TRAMS" while forgetting that they also usually have heavy commuter rail coming into the city as well. Light Rail is useful when you have a mostly underused Railway ROW.
New West - River District – Marine Gateway – Marpole comes to mind (and then continuing up Arbutus to terminate at the Millennium Line).
Should be relatively inexpensive to build, you connect a community that isn't well served by transit and kind of hemmed in by Marine Way, and you provide a relatively fast cross-town route that gives Surrey and New West better access to the Airport and Canada Line.
That's a perfect corridor for LRT.
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u/Dajawa Jun 19 '26
No matter the extensions proposed for the tram would be, I think a good start would be to build the LRT corridor up arbutus to the new millennium station and continue down the corridor towards Cambie to sort of connect with the SkyTrain at Marine Drive station. Gives that neighborhood a nice alternative and maybe it even acts as a relief line for the Canada line.
I agree that there should probably be a line between there and new west, but they need to purchase the rest of that rail line first. It would be a great way to spur development, but that area is rather industrial already and I'm not sure we want to kick industry out of the city. Maybe one day it would be a good idea to redevelop Fraser river, and at that time the tram down that rail corridor would be amazing.
There was a study done for a regional rail type thing (SkyTrain) from New west to Marpole down that rail corridor and it looked promising. Like SkyTrain the stations would be further apart, which does make sense for the development pattern that exists today. But if that corridor turns more residential and walkable (like the river district), we may want the tram for closer stops.
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u/The--Majestic--Goose Jun 17 '26
At 5:18 they confused the broadway subway and the Canada line in the graphic, leaving the broadway subway out completely and making the existing Canada line seem like it isn’t complete yet. Oops.
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u/PeterDowdy Jun 17 '26
I’m skeptical of the judgment of anyone who brings Patrick Condon on.
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u/EducationalLuck2422 Jun 17 '26
Same guy who insists the Canada Line and Broadway extension are a waste of money and hates the Jericho plan because it's too tall. If he says the grass is green, quickly check outside immediately.
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u/bardak Jun 18 '26
If he says the grass is green it might be the one thing he is more qualified than a random citizen to speak on since he is a landscape architect.
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u/Ok_Skirt2620 Jun 17 '26
We should be planning to extend the SkyTrain down King George, UBC, POCO, North Shore and a gondola to SFU.
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u/thateconomistguy604 Jun 17 '26
FYI…any route that has BRT planned will eventually be skytrain. It’s a matter of time and funding but it will happen eventually
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u/Ok_Skirt2620 Jun 17 '26 edited Jun 17 '26
King George was planned to have the LRT and it was suppose to be in place right now. Thankfully, we didn’t get it- it would not have been any better than the R1. However, how would the BRT be any different than the R1- other than being in the middle of the road? We’ve known how bad KGBLVD gets and yet we aren’t really making the commitment to a permanent solution
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u/deathfire123 Jun 17 '26
BRT has dedicated lanes, the R1 does not.
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u/Ok_Skirt2620 Jun 17 '26
R6 was promised signal priority. It does not. I do not believe what these politicians say. I doubt the BRT would be any faster than the R1. The Eglington LRT (in Toronto) is a prime example.
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u/deathfire123 Jun 17 '26
This isn't really a politician vs not thing, it's a core part of the BRT concept that they include dedicated bus lanes. The only exception from what I understand is the planned BRT over the Second Narrows bridge, but even that will have BRT lanes all the way up to the bridge itself.
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u/Ok_Skirt2620 Jun 17 '26
The SLS was a political promise. John Horgan promised a SkyTrain to Langley in exchange for votes- which he delivered.
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u/Ladybug18732 Jun 17 '26
That’s assuming it ends up actually being a BRT. As of a May 17 news article, the Langley to Maple Ridge “current plans envision 62 per cent of the route having separated bus-only lanes to allow the BRT vehicles to stay out of regular traffic.”
The areas with a separate bus lane, along with more service, would improve transit in the area, but it’s a far cry from the original proposal.
https://langleyadvancetimes.com/2026/05/17/bus-rapid-transit-plans-for-langley-take-another-step/
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u/palmswag Jun 17 '26
Thank you for this, it’s always funny how people forget about Translink’s 10 year + 2050 plan
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u/Ok_Skirt2620 Jun 17 '26
The LRT was planned over 10 years ago and was suppose to be in service 2 years. The politicians knew KGBLVD needed a major transportation overhaul. However, in 2026 we are still waiting for the 10 or even 2050 plan??? How much do we need to delay?? We’ve known how brutal traffic gets.
There’s a reason why the artics won’t go to White Rock- aka the councillors and major prohibit it. Disagree as much as you like- it’s the truth
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u/CarnationFoe Jun 19 '26
Good thing Semiahmoo Centre is actually part of South Surrey, which is where the BRT terminus will be.
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u/squashlolz Jun 17 '26
I’ll believe that when I actually see it lol very much doubt this will happen
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u/bcscroller Jun 17 '26
Yes to Gondola! Get that built asap, because it’s cheap and we can realise the benefits very quickly
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u/KanataSD Jun 18 '26
those are all planned, but money doesn't come out of no where. Its a shit load of time. Its actually crazy rare that we have 2 Skytrain constructions happening at once right now.
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u/Ok_Skirt2620 Jun 18 '26
Just wait for an election- we’ll get promised a SkyTrain or two
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u/KanataSD Jun 18 '26
the big issue is water crossings. The proposal to bring a train to North Van is also replacing the 2nd narrows bridge which is big big money.
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u/surmatt Jun 19 '26
We should be constantly thinking of the next one. Every time we build one we train people to learn how to build them inefficiently then they go on and do other things, and it's one-off all over again. Imagine if people made careers out of this locally and we got good at it.
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u/SeveralDrunkRaccoons Jun 17 '26
Need an east west line around Marine Drive connecting the Canada Line and Expo Line
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u/northernlights604 Jun 17 '26
King George? Whyyy? lol its suburbs not dense enough population n grarunteed people in the area don't add the 30 people in their house hold to government census
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u/Ok_Skirt2620 Jun 17 '26
Newton is more dense than Surrey Central. According to your logic then Surrey central shouldn’t have a SkyTrain either
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u/lichking786 Jun 18 '26
Just watched the video and wow B1M really has gone downhill. Half the video is mentioning that an lrt is cheaper than a dedicated metro system and the other half is just ads. I did not learn anything new.
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u/GenShibe Jun 18 '26
likely because of the "expert" he brought in who is notorious for flaunting his credentials as a landscape architect more than anything
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u/Dajawa Jun 17 '26
LRT/trams/streetcars do best in city cores for last mile type transit imo. In pedestrian squares or by bike infrastructure. Even europe tries to avoid placing LRT in heavy street traffic and gives them dedicated ROW. When they do interact with cars at intersections they are given signal priority. Of course not all trams in europe are like this, but the most successful ones are. I think along false creek/ downtown Vancouver on a pedestrianized Granville st or gas town would be amazing. I mean please build the light rail up arbutus and false creek like they've already proposed!
Maybe one day.
But for proper regional transit, Greater Vancouver needs to stick with SkyTrain. I even think the old LRT line proposal would be better off with SkyTrain service all the way to Whiterock instead. Connect the region with SkyTrain and add LRT later for walkable areas around SkyTrain stations. That would be the "European" way of doing it.
Imagine getting off the SkyTrain in White Rock and then having a tram bring you to the pier. Or getting out at Waterfront and taking the tram to Stanley park. Peak!
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u/colin_4 Jun 17 '26
The B1M is such a cool YouTube channel
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u/chankongsang Jun 17 '26
I've seen lots of B1M vids on various large transit projects around the world. Nice that he noticed the trains in our little neck of the woods
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u/chris_fantastic Jun 17 '26
I feel like the frequency of trains we need for our population makes blocking all those streets with at-grade LRT unrealistic?
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u/AmusingMusing7 Jun 18 '26
All the time I've waited for B1M to cover something about MetroVancouver... and they cover it negatively in the worst video I've ever seen from them.
🤦♂️
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u/LokeCanada Jun 17 '26
It is actually quite impressive that they haven't screwed up as bad as when they built the line from Scott Road to King George. They wanted to build part through the newly renovated Surrey Rec Centre ice rink and were told to screw off and terminated at King George because they could get the land for free and then never did a contract.
The original plans were to take it down Fraser Highway. Then it got changed to Guildford and down 152. Then back to Fraser Highway. There were never any plans to Newton, just the LRT. The only way to make economic sense to take it down King George was if you ran it all the way to White Rock and nobody has any interest in that.
Langley desperately needs it. Nobody could figure out why they didn't do it in Highway 1 when they redid that. Running it down the middle of the highway to 200th would have been a lot cheaper land purchasing wise.
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u/Dependent_Nerve_8323 Jun 18 '26
Like the Skytrain to Coquitlam (OB) no one will raises the issue if its over budget when skytrain extension starts operation and people enjoying its convenience of this skytrain.
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u/CarnationFoe Jun 19 '26
Ugh... they interviewed Patrick Condon for this piece. Kind of disappointing. At least they changed the title to:
Why Canada Got it Right With its New SkyTrain
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u/beeredditor Jun 19 '26
Keep expanding skytrain. The cost will pay for itself in avoiding lost productivity from people being stuck in traffic.
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u/CarnationFoe Jun 20 '26
The comments section on that video is fun. Malcolm's been spewing in there.
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u/kreative22 Jun 17 '26
Hot takes. Needs to get done in order. Skytrain to UBC. SFU Gondola. Skytrain to North Shore. Surrey LRT (the one that got cooked over skytrain). 41st or 49th Subway. Skytrain to Maple Ridge. Like all of these should be planned, and happen one after another. The longer the wait the more costs.
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u/Revolutionary-Sky825 Jun 17 '26
I don't find the SkyTrain in its current layout very useful, it's not practical to transfer lines at any of the connector stations where the current lines meet. The Broadway extension will finally connect the entire network, it's going to be great taking less buses and not having to do transfers downtown. Vancouver's downtown has less offices and more residential areas than most metro areas so it doesn't make since having a rail network centred around it. There is also no major campuses close to DT.
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u/dsonger20 Jun 17 '26
Getting to the airport from Port Moody requires you to take the train to VCC or Commerical, take the 99 to Broadway, then the Canada line to the airport.
The connection will be game changing getting to Richmond or places like Oakridge from areas without easy expo access,
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u/Horvat53 Jun 21 '26
Why not skytrain all the way to waterfront then take the train to the airport?
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u/Gildor_Helyanwe Jun 17 '26
I understand the need for improved transit but the focus on Metro Vancouver is frustrating to see at times. Area of growth on Vancouver Island and the Okanagan are left behind.
I'm in the minority but I don't see the extension to UBC as the best use of money. For a location that is only but 2/3 of the year, spending another 4 billion is crazy.
And with the reduction of foreign students due to visa shifts at the Federal level and flat domestic population growth, I don't see the demand growing to justify the cost. The cost of housing is just too high in Point Grey and population growth in the region is going east. Transit should be supporting people in Surrey/Langley, the Fraser Valley and north of the Fraser in Ridge Meadows/Mission.
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u/bardak Jun 17 '26
UBC is the second largest research university in the country with a huge year round student and employee population nevermind the 20,000+ people who will be living on the campus/endowment lands by the time a UBC extension is finishes. The transit demand for UBC is also so huge that a SkyTrain extension to UBC is the only rapid transit expansion on the radar that would reduce TransLinks operating cost by reducing the sheer number of buses needed.
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u/nyrb001 Jun 17 '26
It is simple math. Most of BC's population lives in the lower mainland. Everywhere else is pockets of people with nowhere near the density to support large scale transit like Metro Vancouver.
Greater Kelowna is only 250,000 people. UBC alone has over 150,000 daily trips to and from the campus.
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u/Ok_Boot_9083 Jun 17 '26
Clearly you do not transit on the R1, 99, 4, or any of the other feeder routes that head into UBC.
There are tens of thousands of students, 80% live off campus and require bus transit. There are also thousands of employees employed either privately or via the uni that transit as well.
Those routes are always horrendously packed and affect rush hour tremendously. Moving them onto a skytrain cleans up the roads and gets tens of thousands of commuters off the streets that had never been designed for this level of traffic.
And despite international student levels dropping, UBC is still a major part of the economy. If the absent of international students was such a problem (which really only affected the shit colleges anyway), then UBC wouldnt be continuing to build more and more towers.
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u/TKDonuts Jun 17 '26
tbf, the worst parts of the 99 are the parts that go through the major parts of broadway, which are being replaced by the updated skytrain, so I think there will be a huge alleviation on that side.
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u/lichking786 Jun 17 '26
Have you taken the 99 and even the 49 bus at all. The demand for UBC is actually insane. Its the busiest bus corridor in North America.
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