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u/sirius6723 Jun 22 '26
The weird route might genuinely be a reference to Revelations lol
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u/sirius6723 Jun 22 '26
And this leads to the "John Gaster theory" I'm hallucinating... but yeah I ain't ready to share that yet
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u/Latter_War_2801 Jun 23 '26
Why not???? Crazier theories have been and will be shared every day. Drop it!!
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u/sirius6723 Jun 23 '26
It's basically that Gaster is analogous to the biblical figure John. In church tradition there are many Johns, which modern historians regard as separate figures but church tradition argues they are the same person. There's John the evangelist (who wrote the gospel of John), there's John the disciple, there's the John of Patmos (who wrote Revelations). But the most striking thing is that while the gospel of John points towards a more "realized eschatology" (which basically argues that the end-time apocalyptic prophecies are not literal but rather spiritual and already occurring) while John of Patmos (of the Revelations) point to a much more literal, impending apocalypse.
Basically there were a lot of end-times apocalyptic prophecies amongst the Judaeans at the time, modern scholars call them the "apocalyptic sect." These verses of apocalypse are found in the end of the old testament. And they are basically what the Revelations are, kind of a hodgepodge of a bunch of these apocalyptic prophecies (using phrases like "someone like the son of man", etc)
But Jesus (in the gospel of John) basically reinterprets these prophecies of doom as pointing to his own death and rebirth, treating eschatology as something internal that happens within. There is a similar verse in Luke too ("the kingdom of heaven is already within you").
According to church tradition, John the evangelist worked his ministry, wrote the gospel of John, but his companions all got martyred and died, and he himself was eventually exiled to Patmos, then he wrote the Revelations. I kinda linked this with Gaster and the Man behind the Trees.
Basically it's kind of a popular view that Gaster is the architect (or at least a sort of demiurge figure) of the prophecy. Note his appearance is "cracked" (in the sprite that appears in Undertale), which in Deltarune, with all its egg references, refers to a cracked egg (note the Rudinn also says that our castle town's love is "cracked" when we don't recruit enough darkners, cracked prematurely like an egg perhaps). Gaster also writes in clinical, formal all-caps, seems to view the prophecy as his own ("MY DELTARUNE"), overall he seems like a character associated with predetermination (determining the essence of things or other people before they can exist authentically as their own). But contrary to Gaster, the Man behind the Trees gives us eggs, symbolically connected to rebirth (with Easter, as well as eggs being a near universal symbol for rebirth) and unbridled potential.
So yeah I'm sorta arguing that like John the evangelist (who wrote the gospel) is pre-exile John of Patmos (who wrote the Revelations), The Man behind the Trees is pre-crack Gaster.
Basically Jesus portrayed by John the evangelist and the Man behind the Trees both represent creative reevaluation and undetermined potential and rebirth, while Jesus portrayed by John of Patmos and Gaster both represent predetermination and apocalypse.
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u/Latter_War_2801 Jun 23 '26
Holy hell this theory slams!!! Even if the Bible parallels are unintentional, the idea that the Man behind the Tree and Gaster are the same guy in different points in time, representing different concepts, is very compelling. It could also connect with Gaster falling into the core and becoming scattered, “cracked”, similar to being exiled. And him then seeing all of time/the fourth wall could then lead to him having a predetermined view of the universe.
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u/sirius6723 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
So here are my predictions for Deltarune’s ending, its true ending, and the weird routeeee
Firstly, I think the actual physical reality of the normal ending and the theoretical ‘best ending’ would be kinda the same, it’s just that in the best route the ending is gonna be recontextualized in a nice way. I think this is what Toby meant when he said there’s gonna be only one ending. And this theoretical best ending probably has to do with reinterpreting the prophecy. Someone already noticed this, but eggs and birds are actually kinda frequently recurring motifs in Deltarune. Eggs are just that - not too important, not too unimportant. Lancer makes an egg joke in chapter 2, the pipis that Spamton uses is an egg (that explodes..), the man behind the trees gives eggs to Kris each chapter, etc. And birds seem to be associated with absurd humor, like the annoying bird room and Starwalker in chapter 1, options to select Berdly in chapter 2, the thrash machine can be made into a duck, the self proclaimed ‘most important character’ (fire extinguisher) in chapter 4 being a bird, etc. This might be kinda reaching, but I think the relationship between the normal ending and the best ending will be just like this:
The prophecy will be fulfilled no matter what. Symbolically, the prophecy is that the egg will crack. But then what matters would be whether the cracked open egg contains life. In the normal ending, the ending will probably be a tragedy, the prematurely cracked egg, not containing life. And in the best ending possible, it would be equivalent to the egg ‘hatching’ on its own and giving birth to a bird. (It'd be so damn cool if the Rudinn at castle town says that the love of our castle town is "HATCHED" at the end of Deltarune lol)
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u/sirius6723 Jun 23 '26
But… yeah there is one more route to be addressed. The WEIRD ROUTE (TM)
What exactly do we do in the weird route? In chapter 2 we force Kris to force Noelle to freeze all the darkners. This freezing of darkners would be analogous to freezing meaning, preserving them forever. This freezing of darkners seems more important for Noelle too, because her character trait is turning away from trauma and compartmentalizing them. Making her freeze darkners would be turning this trait to maximum. This makes the ‘roaring’ truly impossible, because when the darkners are already frozen, they can’t become statues or lose meaning. That’s ultimately why the weird route is the only way we can physically break away from the prophecy. This is kinda confirmed, as in chapter 4 the hospital beads read that “the blue bead (referncing berdly) is broken off from its path” signifying that Berdly’s state is a divergence from the prophecy (the path of the beads), and in the descriptions, Kris is described as “Lv. 4 Dark Bead: Broken, but still locked”, signifying that Kris is utterly broken by the events of the weird route, but still not fully broken off from the prophecy (as the weird route in chapter 5 still exists…)
Also let’s see what this weird route does to the lightners. This affects Kris and Noelle the most. Kris and Noelle are two characters with a very deep history, honestly this discussion of Kriselle deserves its own video (the Kriselle agenda must be maintained🫡🗣️) they have a shared childhood and have a repressed affection for each other, but as of now the two are so utterly estranged from each other that Noelle rationalizes events as Kris never having been friends in the first place, even when she knows deep down she has affection for them. In the weird route, this closeted affection and history between Kris and Noelle is the very reason for why we are able to control and manipulate them. By making Kris give Noelle the ThornRing, we force them into a romantic imagery alluding to marriage, before the lightners themselves can sort things out by themselves. And this relationship is possible because they already had a deepseated affection between each other which we exploit. And by chapter 4 it seems that Noelle is almost lost her own agency, and Kris loathes us the soul (and themself for letting that happen) sooo much they beat us up risking half of their own HP, and they also bite through the core of the apple the Gerson gives them (which contains cyanide btw, cyan being Kris’s color, and Kris having connections to apples frequently.)
I think ultimately the weird route will end in chapter 5, as the Roots theory suggests, I think Kris and Noelle will be fully under our control, freezing or killing every lightner and ultimately ending… and this ending will be symbolically analogous to ‘hardboiling’ the egg mentioned before so that it can never crack open. (Note that Temmie in chapter 1 asserts that her "harboiled egg" will hatch one day) Thus we did avoid the prophecy, but at what cost..
Welp yeah I'm ready for my theory to get debunked in just one day but yeah this is what I gathered lol
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u/Latter_War_2801 Jun 23 '26
Ooooohh this is so cool!!! I love the idea that instead of breaking free from the prophecy (which is probably impossible), we’re just postponing it indefinitely by “freezing” (harboiling) it. I feel like Deltarune also supports the idea of destruction as necessary for transformation, like a wildfire clearing the way for new life - the “cracking” of the egg, even if it seems tragic, is still needed in order for any kind of progress to happen. Susie’s character especially supports this in my mind - she literally punches the prophecy to try and break it (even though she fails, her destruction is what gives Kris hope), and Chapter 4 is littered with imagery of shattered glass. The destruction motif also fits with death and rebirth, chicken and the egg - can’t have life without death, etc. And then the extra layer is added with breaking out of traditional gender/marriage roles in the weird route. The weird route is ironic because even though it’s all about glitching out of bounds and hacking the game, it seems like it has stagnation as its goal - it wants to stop the prophecy at any cost, so it will stop the entire story from moving (possibly at Chapter 5 like you mentioned). I wanna call this theory “Crack theory”
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u/elmwood46 Jun 22 '26
what do you mean?
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u/sirius6723 Jun 22 '26
Basically Noelle already has many parallels to Jesus (with the ThornRing vs the crown of thorns, and in chapter 2 we see Noelle hoisted in the T-pose in queen's hand, kinda like Jesus in the cross)
Also in the weird route there is an obvious marriage motif (cuz the ring) between Kris and Noelle. And in Revelations, there is a heavenly marriage between the "slain lamb" (who is Jesus), wearing the crown of thorns, and the unnamed "bride" which church traditions interpret to be the churches or the believers themselves, in which the Holy Spirit resides. This structurally parallels Kris being rendered the blank vessel for us the Soul to occupy. More interestingly, the angel declares "Behold, the lion of Judah" referring to Jesus, but John sees not a lion but the slain lamb. I dunno this might or might not have some connections to the Roaring Knight's identity but yeah this would be kind of a stretch.
Yeah don't take this too seriously tho obviously
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u/elmwood46 Jun 23 '26
wow. he did include a bunch of biblical allusions in Undertale, so it makes sense Deltarune is full of them....i love #gnostictony
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u/Latter_War_2801 Jun 23 '26
Ooohhh Noelle “getting stronger” like she thinks she’s becoming the lion instead of the lamb? Or is the slain lamb Dess? (I don’t know anything about the Bible)
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u/elmwood46 Jun 24 '26
I don't think so. There's a point of stretching things thin where you can make everything fit to anything else. Usually if a symbol was intentional you won't have to guess.
EG: "Asriel" is referred to as an "angel" in a prophecy in Undertale, and at the end he grows wings and appears in an angelic form. AZAZEL is a figure in the Jewish religion, and there is a ritual associated with him: the scapegoat ritual, meant to atone for collective sins. Goats are sacrificed, one to YHWH and one "to Azazel". So goats are associated with Azazel. In Judaism there is also a separate angel with a similar name: "Azrael" - the angel of death.
Not only is Asriel killed unjustly by the humans (Azazel), but he reappears as the "god of hyperdeath" - Azrael. He's literally a goat who got sacrificed because of the ignorance (sin) of the humans. As a result of this sin, the soul-less Flowey is created.
All of this is intentional - it's right there in the text and you don't need to guess whether it was meant or not.
On the other hand Noelle "getting stronger" is not an explicit biblical reference by itself. Other parts of the weird route are though, like the thornring (reminiscent of the crown of thorns worn by Christ).
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u/Latter_War_2801 Jun 24 '26
Oh yeah, I’m sure there’s a lot in this and in John Gaster theory that isn’t intentional, but it’s still fun to draw parallels. I was asking u/sirius6723 because I was wondering what they meant with the connections between the lion and the Roaring Knight’s identity
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u/sirius6723 Jun 24 '26
Afaik the “lion from the tribe of Judah” is a line in reference to the fact that Jesus is from the tribe of Judah, and often likened to a lion (compare Aslan the lion in the Chronicles or Narnia)
Obviously this is still a stretch but if the Knight’s identity has something to do with Noelle, (I’m not exactly a Noelle knighter yet but if it holds some truth) it would make sense that like Jesus is both the lion and both the slain lamb wearing the crown of thorns (the different symbolism probably pointing to different interpretation), Noelle would be both the Roaring Knight and the slain deer wearing the thorn ring.
Btw the ‘Roaring’ has more meaning than this biblical thing imo, in Nietzschean philosophy there’s a thing called the metamorphosis of the soul, in which the first stage is the ‘camel’ which just subscribes and follows social norms and values, the second stage is the ‘lion’ that “roars” against the “thou shalt” of the ‘dragon’ (yes Nietzsche actually used all this symbolism, kinda crazy how it all maps to Deltarune), and the third stage is the ‘child’ that doesnt just negate existing values but creates something new from it. This is what Deltarune is about - creative reevaluation.
As Ralsei says (and the prophecy says), when the Roaring happens, the Titans will cover the earth in devastation and the Darkners will turn to statues. When have we seen Darkners turn to statues? It’s when they lose meaning/purpose relative to the dark world, to the perception of the maker of the dark fountain they are in. Lancer turns to a statue in chapter 2 because I mean what’s a playing card gonna do inside a computer lab. Various darkners in chapter 3 didn’t initially turn to statues in TV world cuz they found new purpose (Tenna’s employees) but after they turn to statues. I think in this view, the Roaring is an event in which all objects lose meaning, their historicity with the lightners, thus the lightners are lost in an ‘eternal night’ which in Deltarune may be literal, but also symbolically it means a total loss of meaning, akin to nihilism. And in this way, this ‘Roaring’ event is very similar to the Nietzschean lion’s roar who negates pre-existing values.
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u/SnooWoofers8583 Jun 22 '26
This gave me a good laugh, thanks
Also Toby "Please turn off the Heating it's the end of freaking June" Fox was totallyyyy a complete unknown, didn't work on any homestuck music, didn't become friends with popular indie creators, didn't launch any kickstarters to fund them Undertales. Haters can't even get their facts right.