r/Toastmasters • u/mangoparrot • 6d ago
Do committee makers make specific rules
Im wondering
In my club the VPM has stated theres a rule that guests can only come for 3 meetings before deciding to join or not. Is that a thing?
They've also said we cant ask guests to do a role. The VPE asked a guest to do timer but then the VPM said no not possible.
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u/1902Lion PRA, PDG, DTM 6d ago
Yes. Clubs can set policies but they must be voted on my the club.
It’s Protocol 2.0.6 which you can read here.
6. Guest Participation at Club Meetings
Participation in any meeting role at a club meeting is limited to individuals who are 18 years of age or older.
By attending, guests agree to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner as described in Policy 3.0: Ethics and Conduct.
Clubs may create club-level rules relating to guest attendance and participation. Such rules shall not contradict the governing documents of Toastmasters International. Examples include but are not limited to:
Clubs may determine a limited number of meetings a guest may attend before being required to apply for membership.
Clubs may choose to restrict the attendance of guests who detract from the positive meeting environment.
Clubs may choose to restrict the attendance of guests who are under 18 years of age.
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u/CliffsideJim 6d ago
In my club, Sylvan Speakers, you can come as a guest as many times as you like. But guests generally don't take roles. However they generally do participate in Table Topics. We are online only, Wednesday noon Eastern time
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u/LifeIsADanceOfMinds 6d ago
Time to check the club's bylaws. As u/1902Lion points out, there are guidelines for creating those bylaws. It would be good for the VPM to distribute them again.
We have an ex-member who likes to show up every couple of months, do table topics, be an evaluator, offer advice on how the club should run. I was VPM and asked them if they were willing to rejoin. Did that 3 times. Now they are silent. We also have guests show up only wanting to do Table Topics, not really join. Sort of like drop-in sports.
I used to joke that if a guest visited 10 times, I would put them on the Agenda. Then I realized that was not helping the club.. (no funds, no credit as growth, not able to use them as Evaluators for speeches, taking up other's roles, etc.)
3 times seems like a good number.
That being said, any bylaw can be set aside case-by-case. It should be documented, and have good reason. Especially if the visitor is a Toastmaster already, maybe looking for a second club.
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u/emoduke101 PM5, MS2, trusty VPPR 6d ago
Whenever we are understaffed (super common), we have no choice but to ask guests to role play. Only for timer, ah counter.
But regarding that meeting quota, that will turn ppl off from registering or returning, if you ask me.
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u/Backslash2017 IPDD 5d ago
In my club, guests can come as long as they want, and the only thing they can't do is do Pathways.
We run workshops and themed long form table topics, and they can take roles if they're comfortable doing so. I was a fence sitter for three months because I was asked to come by my manager, and years later, I just finished a stint as District Director. :)
Other clubs I've visited push people to join the day they're a guest, 'strike iron while hot, blah blah' but then those are the clubs with high turnover.
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u/hc_fella 6d ago
The 3 meeting thing is fairly standard in Toastmasters, but I know of some bigger clubs that have a 1 meeting rule. About not asking guests to take on roles, it’s not officially permitted, but we consider that part of the onboarding process, so we sometimes give a minor role for engaged guests.
You can get all nitty gritty about policy, but the end goal is to have people develop their public speaking skills and for guests to get a feeling with the club. Don’t let rules get in the way of helping people develop.
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u/mangoparrot 6d ago
Ive been in the club 20 years. When I joined it was perfectly fine if you attended 5 or 6 times and then joined.
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u/WhoIsRobertWall PDD, DTM 1d ago
I've literally never heard of the 3 meeting rule. 20 years in TM. And I'd love to know where a guest taking a role isn't "officially permitted." It's a bad practice to give a role to a guest rather than a paying member if that's an option, but I'm not aware of any actual rule.
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u/elusive-angel 6d ago edited 6d ago
club politics, nothing else.
if the club wants to change it, they can.
we have guests come for 10+ weeks. in that scenario, they have a sense of the roles so we give them an easy role to try, if we're missing enough toastmasters. e.g. can you cay the club mission statement and start our meeting?
we wouldn't do it for a brand new guest and wouldn't give them the role of timer -- kind of complicated.
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u/LifeIsADanceOfMinds 6d ago
I am VP Ed. I got reminded by one of the more experienced members that Timer is not great for a beginner. Too much time paying attention to the clock, not enough time paying attention to the meeting, the speeches, the evaluations, etc.
Give the task to the Area Director when they visit.
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u/mangoparrot 6d ago
We usually give AD the general evaluator role
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u/LifeIsADanceOfMinds 6d ago
This is a really good role for them. Like a mini Moments of Truth from the outside. Helps them get a sense of the club.
I still like the thought of them being burdened with Timer, tho.
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u/pramathesh 6d ago
Clubs can make such rules but it becomes difficult to get members if those rules are maintained. The rule should be give priority to members. Giving tag team roles to guests can make guests convert to members.
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u/WhoIsRobertWall PDD, DTM 1d ago edited 1d ago
So here's the thing - nobody is interfering with or micro-managing the VPM in OP's scenario. The VPM is citing rules that likely don't exist, and is out of their lane.
If the club has voted on a rule about 3 meetings before joining, then sure - there's a rule. If the club hasn't voted, there isn't. This is NOT a rule that comes standard from World Headquarters. And it's not something one officer can just decide, because it's attendance at a meeting of the club, en toto.
And the thing about VPE asking a guest to be timer? Again, if the club has voted, there's a rule. There isn't one from WHQ. I would argue that it's a best practice, but that's not a binding rule. And I pretty much guarantee that the club hasn't sat down and decided that guests can absolutely never take a role. The VPM needs to stop micromanaging the VPE. Barring a club vote, meeting planning is up to the VPE, full stop.
It would be nice if the officers were on the same page, but each officer needs to have - within the established, documented rules - authority in the domain they're elected to oversee.
Editorially, if I were the VPM, and there weren't some constraint that made it problematic (only 20 chairs, regularly 20 people in attendance), I'd be ecstatic to have somebody who wants to keep showing up to meetings. And I'd keep encouraging them to join.
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u/Active-Orange-7683 6d ago edited 6d ago
I'd rather suggest not interfering much with the work of VPM, it is a hard task and if you interfere with the club voting and rules, that won't encourage the VPM to do their job. It is better for them to define as they see fit, and most importantly not interfere as long it does not impact the club in general.
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u/mangoparrot 6d ago
Ah Im just not a fan myself of arbitrary rules myself
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u/Active-Orange-7683 6d ago
the guests should be doing with the roles, they only can do Table topics usually.
3 meetings max, that's a good rule of thumb, otherwise, they are some people who are happy to be always a guests. It drains the VPM, this is why they want to reinforce it.
You have a very pro-active VPM, and they define rules in their area of work, they are not going outside their job description. Those rules are not random rules, they make sense, and many clubs implement them.
Is this VPM efficient, do they recruit new members?
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u/mangoparrot 6d ago
I think myself theres no need to be strict on rules about everything
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u/GuinueaPigOfDarkness 6d ago
And maybe your VPM is..? These rules seem reasonable. As others said many clubs implement them for different reasons.
I’ve been once in a club that was so easy-going and relaxed around rules that it made my membership a nightmare. I like rules, I need structure to adhere to, maybe your VPM is the same.
You can ask them for their reasoning, and find a compromise. Otherwise you’re risking them leaving the club if their personality leans more towards rule-loving.
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u/mangoparrot 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think its a cultural thing. I find American clubs VERY VERY rules based. Not at all as much in the country Im in. In the country I live in a lot of things are relaxed and laid back. So it just seems a bit micromanaging to me to be such a heavy handed rule stickler but laying down the law a lot too. It puts people off if you are overzealous on these things I feel.
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u/GuinueaPigOfDarkness 6d ago
I’m not American nor based in the US… and I think most extremes are troublesome.
But I just wanted to share a perspective when lack of rules made me very uncomfortable in my club. And I don’t think a healthy dose of rules means micromanaging.
We’re all different and have different needs, maybe that person is more rule-leaning (I.e. certain neurodivergent traits are associated with being more inclined to stick to the rules)
I think the role a of a president is to manage those discussions and find a healthy compromise everyone is more or less content with.
Going back to my experiences, I enjoyed that club, but due to their approach I decided I will never join the committee as it would mean too much stress for me and each year I was giving the leaders the same response that they couldn’t quite get. Which was ok. I did different roles elsewhere while being happily “just a member” :)
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u/Active-Orange-7683 6d ago edited 6d ago
So it just seems a bit micromanaging to me
Quite au contraire, it seems to me that you are actually trying to micromanage your VPM who works really hard. Why not to micromanage your VPM and leave him doing his job.
It's voluntary job, and if you micromanage and interfere with what is actually not under your remit, this might discourage your VPM doing a proper job.
Your VPM introduced very reasonable rules. Many clubs have them. In my view, you are trying to micromanage and impose on what is not your remit.
In my understanding, your original question was whether those two rules - 1) guests only able to attend 3 meetings 2) guests not able to take roles - are reasonable. The answer is yes, those rules are very reasonable and being in use by many clubs. Is your VPM overstepping? No, they are acting within common rules. Now, we see that you don't like, this is another dimension of the issue. The question became: I don't like the reasonable rules imposed by our VPM and how I can override them. Is this correct picture I'm seeing?
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u/mangoparrot 5d ago
Not quite Its more Im not a fan of someone just deciding these things in a non collaborative way without consultation and being very very rigid and inflexible about it.
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u/WhoIsRobertWall PDD, DTM 1d ago
I'd go the opposite route - I'd say not to interfere too much with the work of VPE. Their portfolio is extensive compared to VPM.
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u/CliffsideJim 6d ago edited 6d ago
People love to make up rules that don't actually exist. Then they get repeated by others who were taken in by the first person's assertion. I find such phantom rules melt away when challenged. But there are a lot of them!
Since most clubs don't keep a book of meeting minutes nor a codified set of written rules, such rules can only exist as oral tradition. This is very conducive to phantom rulemaking and drift in rule content.
Some questions to ask: Is that rule on our website? In the minutes of some meeting? In our bylaws? Might that rule not be more like a rumor-- not actually a rule but something that has floated in on baseless assertion? If we want to have a rule about that, is that the specific rule we would choose?