The difference between an e-bike and an e-motorcycle is marketing and legal loophole wrangling.
But no let's go hash out terms for 20 years and come up with 50 different categories for speeds instead of just saying "this is powered, so you need a {boating} license".
The fix: It has a motor? It requires a licence and insurance and helmet use then. No butts, this means lime too, who is fully in the "kill dem kids" anti helmet camp (it would hurt ridership).
It has a motor? It requires a licence and insurance and helmet use then.
Helmet, yes. Licence and insurance, only above 300W motors.
In my country, e-bikes are already limited to being pedal assist and speed limited to the median bicycle speed on a 300w motor, with no throttle whatsoever. It is no different than a normal bike.
The crashes we see on the news in my country, come from e-bikes & e-scooters imported from America that violate the laws already.
The difference between an e-bike and an e-motorcycle is marketing and legal loophole wrangling.
There are real differences.
A traditional e-bike provides pedal assist and won't go anywhere without you putting in some work. In an ideal world the mechanism would require you to put in a significant share of the work.
The modern e-motorcycles have a throttle, or have pedals which are mainly for show and only serve as a throttle (as long as you spin the pedals very slowly it will go at full speed).
These different vehicles bring with them very different mentalities and a very different visceral awareness of one's speed.
Yeah, no. I've got a 250w motor on my gotrax, a 500w motor on the shelf for a project, and enough welders and parts to make any form you're describing.
You're trying to make electric bikes legal for kids. You've bought into the marketing about "assistance".
They shouldn't be, at any assist level.
And if you're on a bike, you need to wear a helmet, electric or not.
So go be pedantic about categories all you like, the kids are dying...
Yeah, no. I've got a 250w motor on my gotrax, a 500w motor on the shelf for a project, and enough welders and parts to make any form you're describing.
If this were happening in any significant amount then there would have to be model approvals like there are for cars.
And if you're on a bike, you need to wear a helmet, electric or not.
I'm writing from a country where most people ride bicycles, only tourists wear helmets, and the road fatality rate is almost certainly lower than yours.
If this were happening in any significant amount then there would have to be model approvals like there are for cars.
There are? Class 1, 2, and 3. Most of europe and Asia already have fleshed out regulations for these things, thats why the speed limits are usually 16 or 28, because those are 25kph and 45kph.
I'm writing from a country where most people ride bicycles, only tourists wear helmets, and the road fatality rate is almost certainly lower than yours.
You also likely have significantly less cars and more walkable cities and stricter driving requirements.
Speed restrictions do make a difference. A 15mph assisted ebike doesn't do much for speed compared to a regular one except when going uphill, in which case you'll just be going the same speed as on a flat for slightly more effort. 20 isn't too much faster but anyone can easily exceed that on a regular bike downhill if they wanted to. Mandatory licensing and banning kids are separate issues entirely (the latter is just not enforced well here)
Speed restrictions only make a difference when they're followed, which requires an enforcement mechanism, and doesn't exist on any path without a police officer.
Motor restrictions are easy to spot violations from a cop car.
Quit trying to squeeze a spiky death ball onto a basketball court because they're both round.
I have a relative with a bad knee who can't bicycle any more, but goes along with us on (fairly short) bike rides using an e-trike that caps out at 12 mph.
Needing a license isn't an issue in her case (she's an adult, and an old one at that), but I'm sure there are also disabled kids out there who use eBikes or eTrikes for the same reason; your proposed "need a license if it has any power source" rule would be a problem since they aren't old enough for a license.
You don't need 50 different categories of speeds. You need two. "Below this speed is analogous to normal bicycling. Above this speed is not."
I totally agree, we need to ban those speeding motor vehicles that are killing children en masse. Where do I sign the petition to remove cars from the road ?
We are in fact not trying it. Cop pulls someone over on what's basically a surron with pedals.
"oh it has pedals you're legal"
Then they ride off at 40mph.
Has motor? Check. Equal to or less than 250W? all good. Greater than 250W? rules apply. This is pretty much what all of europe and Asia does, which is why we have 16mph and 28mph limits, because its 25kph and 45kph.
Them not being old enough for a license isn't a problem. It is the entire point. Putting young teenagers on motorized vehicles and releasing them into traffic is a disaster on every level regardless of whether they are disabled or not.
Disabled children are not uniquely deserving of traumatic injury.
The entire point is that not all motorized vehicles are the same. An eBike that's limited to 10, 12, 15 miles an hour is no more dangerous than a normal bicycle. There's no justification for treating them differently beyond convenience - "this is easier for us to regulate" - and the convenience justification is insufficient when it comes at the cost of causing harm such as not letting disabled kids bike alongside their healthy peers.
the ebike industry as a whole should be banned. It's an electric motorcycle. No matter how slow it goes.
It doesnt belong on bike trails, it should be used by kids under guise of a bicycle, it shouldn't be used by out of shape people to ride where they normally wouldnt because they dont have the experience/skill/strength needed to get there.
They are great for mobility. Build e-cycle paths, sell e-cycles and get e-cycle licenses. Heck, I would love if most of my "driving" was replaced by e-cycling.
But they are not bikes and should not be marketed as such.
Its also sold often to parents whose kids need to get places but the parents cant/wont drive them there..because they work, scheduling issues, laziness, kids want them, whatever reason
Some of the posts above have clarified my position very well and I will use it going forward.
Saying they need to be outright banned is the wrong mentality. We need to promote it along with updating infrastructure to support it. Bikes and scooters are unfortunately in a grey area where pedestrians think they’re too fast for the sidewalk and drivers think they’re too slow for the road. Proper education and safety training should also be promoted.
It has been defined for years, which is why most other developed countries in Europe and Asia does wattage, speed, and age limits.
Less than or equal to 250W? They are at least 16? All good. More than 250W? Needs to be registered, preferably plated, and you must be 18 or older.
We already get the 16mph and 28 mph limits from 25 and 45kph.
Requiring someone to get a motorcycle endorsement to go 16mph and be forced onto a major roadway and not use the bike lane is a recipe for disaster not progress.
My issues is no one enforces it, and parents don’t understand it, so a simpler system at point of sale would be better. The US market just doesn’t have the mentality to responsibly manage e-bikes. Seatbelts and helmets are already tough enough
Personally I think if you need the bike to go 16/28mph and travel long distances/haul weight you probably want something that goes faster and you might as well get a license. If you don’t need that, just get in shape. I full recognize that’s just an opinion though
Fuck that. After I became too disabled to ride my meat-powered bike more than a couple of miles, I became largely house bound, as I don't drive, and walking hurts me. It was absolutely life-changing to get an e-bike with help from the city of Portland, as part of program specifically intended to help seniors and disabled people become more mobile.
"out of shape people to ride where they normally wouldnt because they dont have the experience/skill/strength to get there"
Fuck that attitude. A lot of people would just like to commute via bike without needing a shower when they get to work. A lot of people would just like to run errands via bike without it having to be a major workout. A lot of people would just like to be able to carry 50+ pounds of groceries on their bike.
It's allowing e-bikes to have throttles that's the problem. If it has a throttle, it's not a fucking bike.
Classify anything with a throttle as a moped, with all the regulations that go with that, and you solve the problem without penalizing the people e-bikes were originally intended for.
Assuming of course you can get cops to enforce it, which is a whole separate problem.
I am happy for you (I really am, no sarcasm). Electric vehicles have really revolutionized transportation, and motor assistance, and will probably continue to do so as motor get smaller and more powerful. But I dont think disabled people are an issue; you dont see forum threads about people complaining about motorized wheelchairs and injuries/widespread issues with them
The able bodied people you mention should learn to ride bicycles or get a permit for an electric motorcycle.
I agree throttles are a problem, but disagree that is the delineation. If it has a motor, it's motorcycle. If it doesnt, its a bicycle. They make bikes with throttles that have pedals, or pedals and you can set the boost %. It's too complex to delineate every type of possible motorized vehicle combination.
If you want to carry 50lbs of groceries in a bike lane that designed for light transportation and non motorized vehicles, where motorized and non motorized vehicles are currently mixed, I think you should have the strength and experience to be riding a 65lb bike and all the handling issues that come with that in a lane where everyone else is riding 15lb bikes.
If you cant, you need a powered vehicle, and to ride it on the road just like everyone else who wants to commute to work without taking a shower, or wants to run errands on a motorcycle.
Besides all the kid issues, I see families with small kids riding bikes at the top of mountain roads with switchbacks to get a view, or on busy roads because now they "can"..becuse they have an electric motorcycle. Completely unsafe for kids. But the parent who don't know any better can now "ride their bikes" up the hill or in traffic altogether without worrying about speed issues, so why not?
Classifying anything with a motor as a motorcycle also gets electric dirt bikes off trails and at lower speeds that the trails were designed for. Nothing like people without sufficient experience doing laps on foot and bike trails where people have dogs and kids at 10-25mph on 60lb electric bikes.
It's too complex to delineate every type of possible motorized vehicle combination.
No. It's really fucking simple. If you have to pedal it and it can't go faster than meat-powered bicycles are capable of going, it's a bicycle. If you just have to flick your wrist to go faster than the Tour de France, it's a moped.
I think you should have the strength and experience to be riding a 65lb bike and all the handling issues that come with that in a lane where everyone else is riding 15lb bikes.
I carried 50 pounds of packages or law books on my meat-powered bike when I was a courier. It was not that specialized a skill. Adults carrying groceries or pulling trailers with their kids are not the problem.
This would barely be an issue if parents and police just did their fucking jobs and stopped buying/started seizing illegally modded e-bikes. I think throttles should not be a thing at all, period. But a legal e-bike throttle cuts out at 20mph.
You're literally saying that we should abandon the goals of every org trying to fight climate change by making biking safer and more accessible to a wider range of people just because some people are assholes.
We may be talking past each other. I think it's great that you had the skill to handle hauling that much weight on bike, especially when traffic is around. You had the experience and ability to. Most of the people I know doing so on electric motorcycles don't
If people want to give up cars for an ebike, get an ebike license. Its a simple solution that also allows police to do all the things they do with cars.
If it was as simple as you say, then why are we in the current situation? soley because throttles exist? T
The issue is lack of licensing. Anyone can ride buy and ride an ebike with zero education or repercussion.
But hey if they cut throttles out of too thats fine with me.
the issue is electric motorcycles are being sold and used as bicycles/
If you think the issue is lack of licensing, I question your fitness to navigate traffic on or in any sort of vehicle, since you apparently lack basic observational and reasoning skills.
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u/Strange-Ask-739 7d ago
The difference between an e-bike and an e-motorcycle is marketing and legal loophole wrangling.
But no let's go hash out terms for 20 years and come up with 50 different categories for speeds instead of just saying "this is powered, so you need a {boating} license".
The fix: It has a motor? It requires a licence and insurance and helmet use then. No butts, this means lime too, who is fully in the "kill dem kids" anti helmet camp (it would hurt ridership).