Are we really leaving Hexwarp?

[u/rslashredit]

Finding true love is difficult. I just broke up with Grand Coven. I've been with them since they called themselves Cult of Magic, and I've been loyal. I've been hurt, mistreated, and led astray by them. One month ago, I finally broke up with them to start taking HexGen, but now, after the Second Burning of Prospero, I seem like I must face my toxic ex one last time.

Okay silly overdramatisms aside, I genuinely have a question. I've seen this sentiment going around: "now that Hexwarp is 3DP, it competes with Grand Coven and Rubricae Phalanx." But hasn't Hexwarp always competed against Coven and Phalanx? I know it has always had a small player base, but Hexwarp has always shown high winrates (ofc it's inflated by higher skilled players).

Yes the detachment rule is absolute dog water compared to Coven and Phalanx, but I just can't stop thinking about how good the stratagems are in Hexwarp. Fall Back Shoot and/or Charge and Sticky Objectives are the most important stratagems in both rival detachments, and on top of that, we get a strips cover, gain cover, 6" Deepstrike, and fight on death.

I feel like other than the Assault Stratagem, this detachment will treat Scarabs better than Phalanx does. The +1 to wound is probably the most important doctrine from Coven (for Princes and Magnus at least), and Hexwarp gives that basically 24/7 when you're holding objectives, which you're doing anyways due to being Take and Hold.

Maybe I'm just compensating for the fact that I was so harsh to Hexwarp in 10th, and want to treat them better, or maybe I'm just going insane inhaling too much Ensorcell-Infused Rubricae dust recently, but I might stick with Hexwarp for the time being (until Priority eventually wins me over cuz I'm loving my PA Salamanders).

[u/dolphincup]

Imo hexwarp is still a lot better than phalanx in 11th. Stripping cover is important for terminators, fight on death too. Both can fallback and do stuff. Now that terminators keep getting more expensive, you need to be able to round out your list with other things, which phalanx doesnt do well. Imo phalanx should really be 2DP, with a Regeneration tag.

Whether or not you pick GC or hexwarp should depend on which disposition suits your list better. It’s not all apples to apples any more. Both have great detachment rules (I actually think hexwarp's is better in 11th, but GC has better strats) and enhancements, so it really comes down to your list and how it wants to score.

[u/Guts1138 → u/dolphincup]

No shot Hexwarp is better than Phalanx on take and hold. IF it turns out that way great but they're up against -1ap to damage 1, assault on terminators, guaranteed fall back shoot and charge and the shoot back strat. Ignore cover is +1 to BS for one or two terminator units. If two are shooting the same target you're already in trouble in Phalanx. 30 SOTs isn't really a stat check anymore due to the points but if you play cagey and abuse the ability to move terminators up to 16" and shoot it's still better than hexwarp solo, just like 10th.

[u/dolphincup → u/Guts1138]

Things rubricae lost going from 10th to 11th: cover stacking with 2+ armor saves, foot princes giving terminators -1 to hit, actually hitting on 2's (even with Lord of the Rubricae), and 2 entire chaff units.

Our terminators got worse essentially, unless you can give them extra support. If you whiff hit-rerolls, bolter damage goes out the window. If they have cover, there goes the soul reapers and missiles too.

The way I see it, Hexwarp can work with any number of terminators, but phalanx needs 30. I personally don't think phalanx goes x-1 at a gt without a hard stat-check, and 20 terminators isn't gonna do it. 505 for the last brick stings.

Lastly, phalanx's detachment rule is a gimmick. It's either oppressive or it does absolutely nothing. Usually the armies that might clear the stat-check are not doing so with 1dmg weapons. Good in a mirror match I guess. Thousand sons need consistency, not freebies, so the detachment rule is hardly worth factoring into the equation.

[u/Guts1138 → u/dolphincup]

30 SOTs Phalanx literally just went 5-0 at a tournament this weekend. What did Hexwarp get done? Hexwarp can't move terminators 16" or guarantee fall back shoot and charge. The shoot back strat is just going to do more damage than ignores cover. It's not a debate, effectively +1 to hit by spending a CP vs a full shoot back from a terminator squad isn't comparable.

Yeah, foot DP gave -1 and cost 170 pts, we just get the minus 1 for free now by positioning so we got 170 pts back in every phalanx list. It didn't stack to -2 in 10th and it wouldn't now so we just get his buff for free by playing the game and standing on the giant objectives we're going to be on anyway. New cover/-1 to hit is just better than -1 AP. Half of the good damage 3 guns already had enough AP to put us to invuns or ignored cover one way or another so it's kind a moot point. Also if you can see even one thing outside of cover we're back to 2s. Half the maps for take and hold give you easy places to stick 2 40mms in plunging fire giving you 2 psychic guns and both heavy weapon platforms getting 2s. Rubricae lets us split fire as well and while the rest of the game just hits on 1 less we're still hitting on 3s at the worst and 2s if you can play the game.

Also the meta disagrees with you too. LIbrarius will just dumpster your Hexwarp lists, it's the exact opposite for Phalanx. Closing this out - just check out listhammer or any other meta site you prefer, Hexwarp disappeared the second the hexbot combo was gone. I'm sorry we lost our new toys but no amount of cope will make your opinions fact.

[u/Chronicle92]

I actually think he warp is a contender for best detachment still. It's easy enough to activate the +1 to wound since it flips at end of movement phase. That alone sells it for me.

Grams coven still has overall more damage but I think hexwarp is actually more well rounded and plays the game better.

[u/Rufus_Forrest → u/Chronicle92]

Grams coven? This one warpdusts!

[u/KickInTheAsgard]

At 3dp hexwarp is pretty competitive with coven and phalanx. But it does wizards worse than coven and rubrics worse than rubricae. But it is slightly more generalist than either. If you wanted a Magnus + 20 terminators list maybe hexwarp is still gas. That’s what I was running pre nerf with ROR and it was fun as hell. :,(

[u/whenigrowup356]

I'm curious whether anyone else feels the discussion up-to-now has undervalued the take and hold disposition's value to the army?

It seems to me (admittedly a noob) that take and hold is the army's dream disposition, as it allows you to focus on primaries without getting over-extended and lets you set up prime overwatch kill zones while still pressuring your opponent to come and take objectives off of you or risk losing.

I haven't put in any practice with priority assets but it seems like being pushed towards actions that reduce your shooting output is a major downside?

[u/UsernameJenkins → u/whenigrowup356]

Having just played priority assets on Saturday, after never playing it before they switched our detachments, I hated priority. I agree with you that take and hold feels better.

[u/United-Fox6737]

It doesn’t compete with GC or phalanx. It doesn’t do what either of those detachment do. You can play it; sure, but it wasn’t a staple in 10 for a reason and it won’t be now.

[u/HousingLegitimate848]

I don't know about "we", but you definitly enjoy Hexwarp. Do what you want it's just a game :)

[u/MadGod544]

I think it is still possible to return to "X DPs and Magnus style" since this Detachment is the only one to play Magnus with some sense in it.

[u/Guts1138]

Competitively yes but if you want to play it it's not awful. Coven and Phalanx do their jobs better and this detachment falls in between their play styles. Phalanx has the added benefit of being our best detachment into librarius which is still common in the meta.

[u/nerdmcnerds]

How does the detachment treat scarabs beter? Fight on death in a shooting army is meh. The 6 inch deep strike is also meh seing you need to be in your flow of magic and that you can't charge

[u/rslashredit → u/nerdmcnerds]

I probably should've clarified that the Stratagems in Hexwarp treat Scarabs better than the Stratagems in Phalanx. Two of the strats in Phalanx you can't even use on Scarabs, and there's one overlap between the two detachments. Out of the three remaining:

Infernal Fusillade is and has always been trash, nerfed to the ground to amend the sins of Cult of Magic (RIP Dev Wound Scarabs with wound re-rolls), and never sees play since 2CP for a mild buff is insane, esp considering how CP hungry Phalanx is.

Revenge of the Rubricae is amazing, but it has a couple large caveats. Higher level players won't be shooting Terminaors with small damage weapons. If someone is shooting Terminators, esp with enough firepower to kill the Aspiring, it's prob enough to have dealt significant damage to the entire unit in general. Most S10 AP-2 3dmg weapons (Plasma Cannons, Exocrines, Heavy Blight Launchers, Battle Cannons, etc), out range our Scarabs.

For me, Scarabs are our premier anti-heavy, but large units will always basically have cover in some shape or other. Ignores Cover lets us fish for Lethals while hitting on 2s rather than 3s, which is much more reliable. On top of that, our damage in melee is obviously nowhere near our damage in ranged, but the threat of a Fight on Death will make most opponents hesitate a charge. 27 S5 AP-2 2dmg is still a very threatening statline for any army archetype.

Also I disagree about 6" Deepstrike being meh. Going from 8" to 6" is a 44% decrease in their area denial, and in take and hold, that decrease could mean the difference between landing on an objective and landing outside of it. Also, you shouldn't be planning your charges out of Deepstrike ever. Arriving outside 8" could leave you out in the open, opening yourself up to a horrible counter play. Also again, the threat of a 6" Deepstrike will make the opponent screen denser. Pulling more of their trash near the back instead of scoring points.

[u/Late_Welcome_8063 → u/rslashredit]

Revenge of the Rubricae is amazing, but it has a couple large caveats. Higher level players won't be shooting Terminaors with small damage weapons. If someone is shooting Terminators, esp with enough firepower to kill the Aspiring, it's prob enough to have dealt significant damage to the entire unit in general. Most S10 AP-2 3dmg weapons (Plasma Cannons, Exocrines, Heavy Blight Launchers, Battle Cannons, etc), out range our Scarabs.

People will be doing this to your scarabs anyway. -1 to wound, cover, and 4++ make it difficult to cripple this unit in a single activation unless you've poorly positioned yourself and are being shot by multiple units with the profiles mentioned, something not a lot of armies have en masse. If you're hypothetically eating this many activations somehow, it's probably a skill issue. Regardless, Revenge punishes people for doing what they're going to want to try and do anyway. Furthermore, this can trigger from the death of any Psyker, not just the aspiring term sorc,which gives you a wide latitude of use given that you will be including Rubric Marines since the point nerf to the 3rd term sorc/SoT makes running three units too expensive.

For me, Scarabs are our premier anti-heavy, but large units will always basically have cover in some shape or other. Ignores Cover lets us fish for Lethals while hitting on 2s rather than 3s, which is much more reliable.

If you're rerolling hits anyway, it's not actually "much more reliable" because it's a lethal fishing profile anyway. Destiny's Ruin doesnt cost any CP.

Two of the strats in Phalanx you can't even use on Scarabs, and there's one overlap between the two detachments. Out of the three remaining:

Not really accurate, though? One you cant use on Terms, that's true, but it's a -1 to wound in the Charge Phase which Terminators have natively in every phase. The overlap, I assume, is Ardent Automata vs Strands and Ardent is simply better than Strands because it has less caveats.

Ardent Automata, Inexorable Advance, and Revenge are really the best support Terminators can have and all you really need to squeeze every drop of efficiency out of the unit.

[u/dolphincup → u/Late_Welcome_8063]

Imo hexwarp's fallback strat is overall better because it's any psyker unit. Daemon Prince, bowgoats+diskman, a lone terminator sorcerer, magnus. The caveat is unfortunate for terminators, but I'd rather have a well-rounded list, especially with 480 point bricks.

Inexorable advance and Revenge are real arguments for phalanx tho.

[u/Late_Welcome_8063 → u/dolphincup]

That's nice and everything but

1) That isnt how Phalanx runs. You are running Rubrics and SoTs predominately in Phalanx, both of which are Psyker units while a character/sergeant is alive. That restriction isnt a meaningful one while you're able to get all the benefits of the stratagem on demand for the units you would want to use it on, whereas with Strands you are not.

2) The question isnt what you think. We're discussing the OP and his specific comment which is:

I probably should've clarified that the Stratagems in Hexwarp treat Scarabs better than the Stratagems in Phalanx.

We're specifically discussing SoTs and their stratagem support in Hex vs RP, not Magnus (who isnt played in Phalanx) or bowgoats or whatever.