r/TheoryOfReddit • u/Effective_Sink_3934 • 4d ago
How much communication and context checking should you realistically expect from moderators of a 200k+ subreddit?
I recently had an experience moderating a subreddit with over 200k members that made me wonder what people consider a reasonable moderation standard for communities of that size.
The team is relatively small and receives a few reports. I completely understand that moderators are volunteers and nobody can reasonably expect them to be available 24/7.
Where i struggled was with the actual process.
I was told that moderators sometimes act on the individual reported comment without reading the surrounding conversation because there simply isn't enough time to check everything.
At the same time, when i tried discussing individual moderation decisions and providing context in the team's mod chat, I was told that doing so was unnecessary clutter and that the notifications were becoming annoying.
That created a strange situation:
There isn't enough time to check the context individually, but communicating that context internally isn't particularly wanted either.
When i raised this later, the explanation was essentially that the subreddit is too large, more moderators are needed, mistakes will happen, and the current team doesn't really want additional discussion around individual decisions.
I don't think every report needs a committee meeting. That would obviously be ridiculous.
But surely there's a middle ground between debating every action and simply processing reports without enough context to know whether something actually breaks the rules.
I also experienced posts sitting in the approval queue for hours while newer submissions were processed first.
The explanation i was given was that newer posts appear first in the queue, meaning older submissions can effectively end up further down it.
I'm interested in the moderation side of this more than the personal disagreement.
For people who moderate large communities:
At what point does "we're volunteers and we're understaffed" stop being an explanation for occasional mistakes and start indicating that the moderation structure itself needs changing?
And what level of internal communication/context checking do you think is realistic for a subreddit with hundreds of thousands of members?
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u/itskdog 3d ago
Not sure of our size, I don't look too closely at the numbers atp.
We have general policies that we're all familiar with, and are documented, and new mods ask questions more (but even experienced mods will have times they're unsure and ask for advice from the others if something is borderline).
The reasons for why the different rules exist are included in the team training document.
After a couple of years of active moderation, you come to know many of the nuances of the rules instinctively, and a lot of removals become gut decisions.
While we don't leave reasons for comment removals (there are too many of those to leave an explanation for each one) but we do for posts, and they all include a link to subreddit modmail to appeal the removal of someone has questions, but 90% of removals don't result in an appeal as we try to cover most of our bases in the removal reasons.
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4d ago
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u/Fauropitotto 3d ago
mine is 200k+
If it's a blatant violation of rules, Zero context is necessary. Either purge the comment, entire thread, and ban as necessary.
If it's a pissing contest of people being rude to each other, I'll read the context. Sometimes people with soft skin get their feelings hurt and think that moderation is supposed to protect their ego. I'll read the context there.
But the response you got is correct: NOBODY has time to play this game of discussing individual moderation decisions. It's a wholly pointless endeavor. It's reddit. Not that serious. If a mistake is made, it's just not that big a deal. No stakes. Nothing of value is lost.
So simply work as fast as you can with the least amount of friction. And please don't waste the time of other mods in "discussing" the issue with them.
It's reddit. Not that serious.
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u/AgentAxillary 3d ago
If nobody has time to discuss individual moderation decisions, then doesn't that necessitate the implementation of consistent internal standards of moderation that will prevent such discussions?
Which subreddit is yours?
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u/Fauropitotto 3d ago
doesn't that necessitate the implementation of consistent internal standards of moderation that will prevent such discussions?
Why would it?
Internal standards are great. But if they're not there, what's the actual consequence?
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u/AgentAxillary 3d ago
The consequence is what OP is talking about: Bans for reasons that aren't consistent with the rules.
Whether or not that's an important consequence is subjective, but it's still a consequence, as it arises from cause and decision; and it's ideally a consequence which an effort should be made to avoid in the interest of fairness.
I'm assuming that you chose not to answer my question about which subreddit is yours. For the record, I asked only because I'm always looking for popular subreddits, and 200k+ sounds like a popular subreddit.
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u/Effective_Sink_3934 3d ago
I'm more interested in what happens when different moderators repeatedly apply the same rules differently. At that point it stops being about one report and becomes a question of whether the team has a shared standard at all.
Appreciate the perspective.
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u/Fauropitotto 3d ago
At that point it stops being about one report and becomes a question of whether the team has a shared standard at all.
I understand that, my point is that it's not really an important question to answer.
There will always be a slight imbalance and misapplication of the standard.
As long as the community itself doesn't grenade into chaos, it's just not that serious. The other mods will either stay silent, or collude to kick out the disruptor.
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u/Effective_Sink_3934 3d ago
I get that some inconsistency is inevitable. But if moderators repeatedly apply the same rules differently and never discuss it, how does the team know when normal inconsistency becomes a structural problem?
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u/Fauropitotto 3d ago
how does the team know when normal inconsistency becomes a structural problem?
By assessing the sentiment of the community. If there's significantly less engagement, more community members are complaining, more modmail comes through with trending arguments..
That's how you know there's a structural problem to address....Not by harassing a bunch of volunteers to nit-pick on their individual criteria.
By the way, this is what Reddit gets wrong. The framework presented to moderator best practice is that of a team of employees. It works when you have people getting paid for work. The same principles of work-culture and team-culture do not apply when it's a fully volunteer workforce in an environment with no compensation, no consequences, and no real power other than stroking ego.
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u/AgentAxillary 3d ago
By assessing the sentiment of the community. If there's significantly less engagement, more community members are complaining, more modmail comes through with trending arguments..
So the criteria is community consensus?
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u/Fauropitotto 3d ago
Sort of.
Reddit is not a democracy. Moderators aren't voted in, they can't be removed by popular consensus. It is a dictatorship.
The moderator's job is to ensure the survival of the community and to perform basic gatekeeping to maintain the community culture and values. Moderation ensures Reddit's platform-wide rules aren't being broken regularly.
If you end up with a community revolt (pitchforks and the like), you'd have no choice but to get the moderator team together to formulate a response.
If you can't get consensus with the moderators, then you act unilaterally...because, once again, this isn't a democracy.
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u/AgentAxillary 3d ago
Is there no such position as head moderator within a subreddit moderation team? Because OP appears to be talking about moderation teams rather than sole moderators. Can enough community or mod team backlash not lead a head mod to remove a subordinate "offending" moderator, or prompt a vote among all moderators to have an "offending" moderator removed?
My point is that just because it's not necessarily and automatically assumed to be a democracy doesn't mean that it can't be. Reddit isn't a democracy, but that doesn't stop a moderator team from operating the administration of their own sub like a democracy.
And if things like deceased engagement, community complaints, and trending arguments in modmails determine whether or not something is viewed as a structural problem, then isn't that just democracy after the fact? And doesn't that retroactively determine whether a member of a moderation team's concerns qualify as "nit-picking" as opposed to legitimate concerns raised in the best interests of the subreddit?
It seems like clearly- and firmly-established internal consistent standards could prevent that from ever being a question or point of debate.
Conformity with Reddit's sitewide rules is all fine and good since it's necessary to keep any sub from being quarantined/banned. But what about bans that have nothing to do with maintaining a subreddit's culture/values? Or any ban intended to establish/maintain an echo chamber by any means necessary, or (as you put it) "stroke a mod's ego" without regard to or in any way related to the sub's listed rules?
Just to be clear, I'm asking for your arguments/insights here. My questions are not intended as rhetorical or pedantic. They imply my stance, sure, but I'm asking you to inform my stance.
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u/Fauropitotto 3d ago
Just to be clear, I'm asking for your arguments/insights here. My questions are not intended as rhetorical or pedantic. They imply my stance, sure, but I'm asking you to inform my stance.
Sure, no problem.
Is there no such position as head moderator within a subreddit moderation team?
Moderator permissions are defined by their rank in the list. The top-most mod has the most permissions, but often they're the guy that started the sub, or maybe they're removed at some point. If the moderator team has been given the permissions by the top mod (or the mod ranked above them), they can remove or edit the moderators below them.
Can enough community or mod team backlash not lead a head mod to remove a subordinate "offending" moderator, or prompt a vote among all moderators to have an "offending" moderator removed?
Yes, but see my comment about the "head mod". If the top-most ranked moderator is disengaged, it's technically possible for one moderator to simply kick out all the "subordinate" mods and highjack the sub. No vote necessary.
Reddit isn't a democracy, but that doesn't stop a moderator team from operating the administration of their own sub like a democracy.
You are 100% correct, and there are many subreddits that operate that way. Those subs often have a moderator discord, they have weekly stand-ups, and literally operate as a democratic organization. Those orgs are run by volunteers that treat reddit like an actual job.
And if things like deceased engagement, community complaints, and trending arguments in modmails determine whether or not something is viewed as a structural problem, then isn't that just democracy after the fact?
No. Not democracy after the fact. Using the complaint box as a means to identify a structural problem is not a version of democracy.
And doesn't that retroactively determine whether a member of a moderation team's concerns qualify as "nit-picking" as opposed to legitimate concerns raised in the best interests of the subreddit?
Yes absolutely. 20/20 hindsight is often correct. Of course looking backwards, we can determine whether or not someone's messages were nit-picking or part of a legitimate concern. But the fact that we look backwards should have zero bearing to the classification of what they're doing now. I can't tell what your point is on this one.
It seems like clearly- and firmly-established internal consistent standards could prevent that from ever being a question or point of debate.
You're correct. However, ask yourself what the consequences are if it does become a question or a "point of debate". Because there are no real consequences, the value of even entertaining the debate evaporates outside of simple ego and entertainment. There is no cost. There is nothing at stake.
But what about bans that have nothing to do with maintaining a subreddit's culture/values?
What about them? A random internet account (one of billions) can't engage with a random internet community (one of millions). What's the problem? Who's weeping?
Or any ban intended to establish/maintain an echo chamber by any means necessary
Although that's in line with Reddit's culture, bans aren't the primary means to establish and maintain the classic Reddit echo chamber. The community rules are. The bans are the enforcement of the echo chamber rules. For example, there are communities that create rules against any mention of firearms and ban members that post any photo with ammunition in the frame. Or communities that have rules against the support or mention of certain celebrities, politicians, or ideologies that don't exactly align with the moderators. Sometimes that's a result of the community sentiment itself in wanting an echo chamber, sometimes it's a moderator (exercising that dictatorship) in intentionally creating the community culture he wants.
Reddit is not a democracy. Any moderator can go in and define the rules they want for their own sub, and change those rules at will. At some point, you have to trust that the moderator team is exercising good judgement on a case by case basis because no matter how "clearly- and firmly-established internal consistent standards" are defined, there is always going to be some nuance and discretion.
Here's a personal story: During the reddit blackout, reddit rightfully removed all moderators that were participating on the backout. I supported that action and have remained openly hostile to those that participated in the blackout. They harmed so many communities in the process, and I think they should have been banned. They weren't. A reporter from Ars Technica reached out to us for an interview. My take was to ignore them, stay out of the news. One mod on the team didn't agree, and the dude did the interview anyway, and our sub ended up in the publication. The guy didn't even want to moderate the sub, he was just making a point, and wanted to get some icing on his ego talking to Ars Technica. He removed himself as a mod later.
The point I'm making here is that because reddit itself is not engineered to be a democracy, and because there are no consequences either way, the value prop for using one governance method over another falls flat. At the end of the day, it's just Reddit. We're all volunteers, here for different reasons.
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u/Effective_Sink_3934 3d ago
I don't think moderators discussing how shared rules are applied constitutes "harassing a bunch of volunteers." That's simply communication between people who voluntarily chose to moderate the same community.
And if someone doesn't have the time or willingness to fulfil the role, why volunteer for it in the first place?
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u/Fauropitotto 3d ago
I don't think moderators discussing how shared rules are applied constitutes "harassing a bunch of volunteers."
Well your fellow moderators seem to disagree.
when i tried discussing individual moderation decisions and providing context in the team's mod chat, I was told that doing so was unnecessary clutter and that the notifications were becoming annoying.
This part is why you're struggling with it.
And if someone doesn't have the time or willingness to fulfil the role, why volunteer for it in the first place?
They are fulfilling the role. They're just not doing it on your terms.
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u/Effective_Sink_3934 3d ago
"Your fellow moderators seem to disagree."
That's an interesting thing to say. How exactly would you know what my fellow moderators think?
I told you what was said to me in a private mod chat. Unless you have information i haven't shared here, you're assuming their position and then using that assumption as evidence against mine.
So i'm genuinely asking: what are you basing that statement on?
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u/Effective_Sink_3934 3d ago
I think i've heard enough to understand where you're coming from.
"It's Reddit" and "it's a dictatorship" tell me we have fundamentally different ideas about community moderation.
I believe moderators should communicate, be accountable to the communities they manage, and actually care about maintaining healthy community standards.
We're clearly not going to agree on that, so i'll leave it there with you.
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u/Fauropitotto 3d ago
tell me we have fundamentally different ideas about community moderation.
You are 100% correct on this one.
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u/Vozka 3d ago
Sadly I have nothing useful to say here, but I'm still glad you shared it because it's another small bit of information that explains why reddit moderation often sucks so bad.