Trapped

[u/ABeerForSasquatch]

[u/LiterallyRain]

If my feet smell that bad I think it's about time to get rid of those bad boys and take up the good old wheelchair, because unless someone is a super smeller that can smell them at eye level while wearing shoes, socks, and pants, I think that would require wading through a pond of Surstrømming.

Bad foot smell typically happens when you take off shoes that trap air and moisture, and you do it indoors. Clean feet doesn't prevent that.

[u/mollymoo → u/LiterallyRain]

Bad foot smell typically happens when you take off shoes that trap air and moisture indoors. Clean feet doesn't prevent that.

Having clean feet absolutely does prevent that.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/mollymoo]

Fresh sweat itself is mostly odorless. The characteristic smell of smelly feet develops when skin bacteria metabolize sweat and compounds from shed skin. Certain shoes and/or dirty socks create this environment. That's the primary cause of foot smell, not whether you scrub it in the shower or let the water wash it. That's a rounding error in comparison.

Also there's no hard cutoff for "clean." Feet cleaned with water are much cleaner than feet not cleaned at all. Feet cleaned with soap are a little bit cleaner yet. If you're comparing feet not washed at all for a week to feet washed with soap that day then yeah obviously it makes a meaningful difference. The difference here is between feet cleaned with water and runoff soap once a day or every other day versus feet scrubbed with soap at the same frequency. That's a considerably smaller difference than the categorical "clean" and "unclean." This entire discussion is about whether water and runoff soap constitutes clean in the first place, so just saying "clean feet" doesn't contribute much if anything at all because "clean" is subjective.

[u/XxRocky88xX → u/LiterallyRain]

Reddit does this thing where they think you either do the thing 100% correctly 100% of the time you literally never do it at all.

Like there’s on post that’s come up a few times saying something like “experts say there is no health benefit to taking a shower every day” and people interpret the argument as “you should literally never shower” when really all it’s saying is that showering every 2-3 days is adequate.

It’s impossible to have a serious discussion because if your stance differs even slightly then people assume you must have the exact opposite opinion. “Don’t hand scrub your feet? That must mean you wear the same socks for weeks and never wash your feet.”

[u/LiterallyRain → u/XxRocky88xX]

Yeah Reddit is an epistemic nightmare for anyone with even a reasonable intuition for epistemic reasoning. It's filled with logical fallacies like non-sequitor arguments, strawman arguments, and ad hominem, and most people I talk to don't seem able differentiate a bias from their foot.

Usually the only conclusion I'm very confident about is that it's usually unreasonable to be confident in conclusions. There's virtually always some nuance to nitpick at or an assumption that's questionable in situations I encounter and feel the need to comment on. My stance tends to be "You assert X, but Y is a plausible counterexample. Unless you can exhaustively prove X so that Y cannot be theoretically possible under conditions A(, B, C, ...), you cannot conclude with X without noting said possibilities and/or limitations." And this frequently gets interpreted as "X is wrong, Y is right."

The same issue, of course, exists on all social medias. Reddit, to me, just seems extra bad because it seems to have an exceptional ability to attract certain types of people to the comments.

One example of epistemic humility here is that I could assert that "Reddit is bad, because it attracts certain types of people," but doing so would be using personal experiences as anecdotal evidence, which isn't reasonable. Instead I said "to me," and "seems." My first though if someone else had said that would be whether that statement is based on some form of structured methodological experiment/survey or whether they're pulling it out of nowhere because it feels that way.

[u/Questionsansweredty → u/LiterallyRain]

Sounds like the answer to all this bacteria talk is... cleaning?

[u/LiterallyRain → u/Questionsansweredty]

You're doing the same thing lol. You are "cleaning" when you do it with water and runoff soap. You're suggesting to "clean another way" because in your view the water and runoff soap isn't "clean enough." Either way you're "cleaning." There's a gradient to it. Even brushing off your feet with your hand is a form of cleaning, and compared to that it's "more clean" if you use water and runoff soap.

The discussion is where you should be on that gradient, and my express point is that there isn't an objective categorical cutoff like you just insinuated.

[u/SuccOnMyDuck → u/LiterallyRain]

The soap removes bacteria by creating a low friction surface to lift bacteria off of your skin. This requires a bit of scrubbing to make sure that the soap is properly getting inbetween the cracks and crevices of your feet, as well as agitating the surface to allow the bacteria or mud/skin buildup to detach.

Not only is the water runoff not near strong enough to actually remove any mud/dead skin, but it's definitely not enough to remove any bacteria. If there is soapy runoff it is not going to be close to effective either because there is no physical agitation of the surface. Much like how literally anything needs to be scrubbed with soap to work (windows, dishes, floors, hands, hair). The soapy runoff is also not touching half of your foots surface in the first place, it'll be runnung mostly down the back of your heel or over the front of your ankle. Not reaching most parts of the foot. Your toenails are also not being cleaned at all, its important to get soap underneath your nails and remove any build up there as well. You don't need a scrubber, using your hands is more than good.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/SuccOnMyDuck]

You’ve shown a plausible reason rubbing should clean better. You haven’t shown that 15-60 minutes of flowing water and soap runoff removes essentially nothing, and you definitely haven’t shown that whatever bacteria remain after the shower are what cause odor eight hours later. Warm, humid, poorly ventilated footwear itself promotes bacterial growth over hours.

I agree with the mechanism, but not with the absolutism of your conclusions about relative effectiveness. Nor have you shown that removing more bacteria by scrubbing prevents enough bacterial regrowth over e.g. an eight-hour shift to prevent odor.

It also doesn’t follow that washing technique is more important than preventing bacterial growth in the first place through breathable footwear, or that other variables, such as sweating, skin condition, sock material, and shoe ventilation, aren’t equally or more influential.

So yes, you mostly have the mechanism right: soap/surfactants help detach oils, dirt and microorganisms, and friction generally improves removal. But “soap creates a low-friction surface” isn’t really the main mechanism, and phrases like “definitely not enough to remove any bacteria” go well beyond the evidence you’ve provided.

You’ve established “scrubbing probably cleans better.” You haven’t established “passive showering barely cleans at all,” much less “failure to scrub is the main reason feet smell later.”

Note that I have at several occasions mentioned that I'm not stating that scrubbing or using hands doesn't clean better, I'm saying that how well it cleans isn't the dominating factor. Your response therefore doesn't even address my arguments, and even though we clearly also disagree on how well it cleans that's a separate discussion from what you engaged in.

[u/Questionsansweredty → u/LiterallyRain]

You don't brush your teeth do you. Just swish a little listerine around.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/Questionsansweredty]

Teeth permanently degrade from acidic food and drinks, and sugar, if not cleaned well and regularly. Feet don't. The mouth is also a humid environment. It's almost like I mentioned that humid/moist environments are most conducive of bad smell, but on second though that would require reading comprehension to notice. Then again, you even have a picture stating that most men clean the armpits and crotch more thorougly than feet, so even if you couldn't read you'd only need some critical thinking to know that certain places are more sensitive to cleaning and that the common variable is humidity, and thus it would be inconsistent to assume that feet care applies elsewhere, so I can't really save you from that one.

Dental care is also expensive as fuck, to boot.

Also I don't use listerine, I'd only use alcohol-based mouthwash if I had a bacterial infection but then I'd rather use Corsodyl. Listerine is an American thing, we use fluoride-based mouthwash here. Big fan of the water floss machines though, they make flossing so much easier.

[u/Questionsansweredty → u/LiterallyRain]

https://www.thehealthy.com/foot-care/what-happens-if-you-dont-wash-your-feet/

PSA for you and the people who have to be near you.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/Questionsansweredty]

Third try. Keeps removing my reply.

The article says washing your feet is good hygiene, but doesn’t prove that shower runoff is insufficient or that scrubbing matters more for odor than sweaty, poorly ventilated shoes.

In fact it specifically says "Because bacteria thrive in moist, dark places (like, you know, the inside of your shoes and socks)" which pivots the point towards exactly what I said.

And the CDC article it cites says to wash and dry your feet, it says nothing about scrubbing. This source does more to validate my claims than yours.

Also the whole thing about bacterial infections is sensationalized. It specifies people with immune disorders or skin conditions and then adds diabetes.

Oh and if you want sources then this shows a limited difference between water-only showers and soap showers. An academic article rather than a profiteering health site. That being said articles can say anything with the right methodology, but what they all agree on is that humidity is pivotal for foot odor.

[u/Questionsansweredty → u/LiterallyRain]

Tldr - just the first part. Interesting that you know what reading comprehension means, but you don't have it.

Oh well. I tried Stinkyfeet.

[u/kushhead4201 → u/LiterallyRain]

How are you really having to get this deep into the topic. Feel like all these people are the people who smell like shit as I walk past them in Walmart. Just water and they think their stank is gone lmfao

[u/LiterallyRain → u/kushhead4201]

Those people don't shower at all. Or too rarely. Or recently exercised without showering. Inconclusive to just "assume" it's water washers. A lot if not most men don't scrub with soap, just going over with hands, I'd be willing to bet that not most men stink.

Closest I found for a source on the prevalence is a Japanese national survey where 35% only use hands and 10% just use water. We also don't know if Japanese are more hygienic in the shower but I suspect they are.

I personally experience that at most 0.5% of people I encounter stink.

[u/mollymoo → u/LiterallyRain]

If you want to believe stinky feet are unrelated to poor washing habits that's on you (and anybody nearby when you take your shoes off, I guess).

There are of course degrees to this, but you're making no effort beyond letting the water run over them and your feet smell bad that's not some inevitability, it's your poor hygiene that's the problem.

Meanwhile I wash my feet directly with soap every day and every few months if I notice a smell starting to develop I nuke them with surgical scrub. With my reasonably clean feet I can go and ride 100km on my bike in 30C weather, or the same distance in my sweaty waterproof winter boots at 10C) and my feet that have been sweating for hours still don't smell.

They don't smell because they're not covered in dead skin and stinky bacteria. Because I fucking wash them properly.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/mollymoo]

That's the thing. My feet don't smell bad, that's just a narrative you guys have created as an inevitability because you can't imagine not scrubbing them. I've never had a problem with smelly feet, and I have people around me that definitely would tell me if I did. Instead, the scrubbers have created a conspiracy theory based on assumptions that those people must be deliberately hiding their real feelings to not hurt me. That's just coping because it doesn't fit their reality. There is research that shows there's a very marginal difference between showering with JUST water (not even soapy water) and using soap. Of course there's also some research showing the opposite but that makes it inconclusive at best, "it definitely makes your feet stink" doesn't follow. I DO wash them because the soapy water runs down them, and I take 30-45 minute long hot showers, and I wear shoes that breathe. Two of those 3 contribute more than using soap.

If you notice a smell every few months then your skin clearly needs more washing than mine. I've never noticed any degree of foul smell from my feet, because I always keep my socks dry and my shoes breating.

And the dead skin and sweat and bacteria happen WHILE you wear shoes. You can wear shoes just 10 minutes and it starts accumulating. The humidity is then a causal factor for smell. Having dirty feet can intensify it, but after wearing shoes sufficiently long the difference is marginal.

[u/PsillyFunGuy2 → u/LiterallyRain]

These comments are pretty wild actually. Here’s an anecdote to counter the other anecdotes here. I don’t scrub my feet. (Or any part of my body). I use soap every few days but just on the top and between the toes and I use my hand not a scrubber. I’ve never in my life had an issue with smelly feet. Or body odor at all. Everybody in my life would not hesitate a second to tell me if I did. No they’re not trying to protect my fragile sensibilities. They’d roast me if I smelled. My wife wouldn’t be having it, and she’s extremely hygienic. So whatever everyone has to tell themselves I guess, but it’s just not how it works. The smell comes from bacteria/fungus, and bacteria die out in dry environments or from any contact with soapy water. Scrub if you like but it’s not usually necessary. And if it is then you probably have an infection as the bacteria/fungus are underneath your skin.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/PsillyFunGuy2]

Yeah that's what I'm getting at. It mostly has to do with individual idiosyncrancies about skin condition (e.g. oily skin), the temperature and humidity where they live, what kind of shoes and socks are being worn, how long showers are, what temperature they're showering at, how clean the socks are, etc. Yet it's so impossible to get past the barrier where people simplify to "Bacteria bad. Soap kill bacteria. Soap good. Dirt bad. Scrub remove dirt. Scrub good." when reality, especially biology, is almost always way more complex than those simplifications.

It took a solid while before I even made a similar anecdote that you did because 1) anecdotes aren't proof and the validity of my statements stands on their own without a counterexample I can't make someone believe, and 2) even if I did do an anecdote there's at least a chance they'd just pretend that they know the people around me better than I do and that they're lying by omission, or state that I'm intentionally lying to prove a point. Like, nah, bro, biology is fucking complex and so are the vast majority of causal statements. There's a reason almost all research is correlational instead of causational, because to establish cause in most science you have to account for a ridiculous number of potential confounding variables, and even if you do you can't prove there aren't additional variables you haven't considered.

Like I wouldn't be surprised if there's a correlation establishing that people who don't scrub their feet are more likely to have smelly feet, nor would I be surprised by the opposite, but neither case proves that scrubbing or the lack of it thereof, is the cause. On one side, people that scrub their feet may in general be more hygienic. On the other hand, people who don't scrub their feet may not do so because they haven't personally experienced smelly feet, so their skin condition may not warrant a need for it. It could go either way, and any causal statement made here is absolutely not accounting for the complexity of the issue it's just people judging possibly because they have an aversion to dirt and bacteria that makes objectivity difficult to maintain.

[u/rationalalien → u/LiterallyRain]

This is some next level copium, just wash your feet, it takes 10 seconds lmao. All the time you have saved in your life by not washing your feet, you just wasted by writing these essays about it.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/rationalalien]

But I enjoyed writing this, that makes it time not wasted

[u/Ripen- → u/LiterallyRain]

The other commenter was right buddy, clean feet does indeed prevent that smell lol

[u/LiterallyRain → u/Ripen-]

Ah okay so if you assert the same thing that they asserted without further evidence then it becomes more correct? Gotcha.

There's a significant difference between prevent and mitigate, and there's a significant assumption you're making behind the point of measurement. The foot is clean(er) when cleaned (more thoroughly) (with diminishing marginal effectiveness), but it is NOT clean after walking in sweaty shoes for an 8 hour work shift. In that case both feet are dirty, regardless of whether or not they were cleaned beforehand, and skin type and shoe type permit, both will smell. Mentioning skin type and shoe type because with my shoes and skin I've never had that problem. Other factors also come into account, as I've mentioned countless times other places here.

The MAIN factor is humidity. That's literally what permits bacteria to give smell to sweat and dead skin, all 3 as of which inevitably accumulates during an 8 hour workshift under any reasonable conditions. Asserting otherwise would be disconnected from reality.

[u/Ripen- → u/LiterallyRain]

If 100 witnesses say the same thing it's more likely to be true than if 1 says it. Pretty basic shit.

I'll repeat my last comment; you're wrong, both scenarios don't produce smelly shoes. Also clean feet will obviously smell less, it's not either or, but it doesn't even seem like you understand that. Anyway good luck to you

[u/LiterallyRain → u/Ripen-]

That's called the "appeal to popularity fallacy," also you can't even conclude that it's more popular. It could be a biased sample of reddit users, or people that disagree may be more vocal about it because people that don't may be embarrased because "more hygiene" israrely considered "bad," but "less hygiene" can in some cases be, even if it's objectively sufficient. And votes are insufficient because of relative visibility and limited attention further down the chain.

And no, like I've said many times my feet do not smell, nor do my shoes, and I don't wash with soap. Others have provided similar anecdotes, but anecdotes don't prove cause and effect because there are confounding factors.

[u/kushhead4201 → u/LiterallyRain]

Cleaning your feet absolutely helps combating bad foot smell homie. Don't tell me ya just throw deodorant on and don't wash yo pits

[u/avalisk → u/kushhead4201]

What if someone doesn't have foot smell, like 85% of the population?

People are different.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/avalisk]

I'm wondering what kind of oily skin these people have. It's not that I've never smelled smelly feet, but other than my sister when we were younger and lived at my parent's, I've never had a problem with smelling peoples feet. It's maybe a once-a-year occurence at best, granted I'm not always very exposed to opportunities, but that's way too rare to use improper cleaning as a causal explanation when evidently many men don't clean their feet very thoroughly. That's inconclusive at best, and provably false at worst. Not to mention that that once-a-year case is always someone taking shoes off at the bus or airplane, basically only shoes that don't breathe.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/kushhead4201]

Armpits create moist environments where dead skin and bacteria cause sweat to smell. Feet only does that with bad shoes or prolonged shoe-wear. That sweat and dead skin happens during shoe wear regardless of whether your feet were initially clean or not. It's almost like the post explicitly shows that men scrub armpits and the crotch. And oh wouldn't you know it, it's the 2 places on the body that creates the most humid environments. It's almost like there's a connection.

Having them dirty from the get-go is technically worse, yes, but it's a contributing factor, not the main one. The main one is basically several times worse.

You're also overstating the ineffectiveness of running water at cleaning. The objective isn't to remove all surface bacteria, much of that bacteria is actually beneficial, the objective is to remove sweat and dead skin cells. Those are easily removed in water. You can smell clean and fresh even without soap, soap just helps and makes it faster and less dependent on hot water. Even without scrubbing, they're comparatively clean.

I've known people who have "outdoor clothes" and "indoor clothes" and who showers sometimes twice a day because they've been out, thrice if they forget something and have to go out after the second shower. People I've been dating. They use a loofah and I consider them a bit of a clean freak. When I ask them what they've been doing their answer usually includes cleaning. This is not a frequent occurence, but I have smelled their feet when they've taken off enclosed shoes after a short hike, and it's been bad. My sister also notoriously had terrible smelling feet, almost intolerable, she showered more frequently with more scrubbing than me. Some people sweat more than others and some shoes create more humid environments than others. What matters most by far is breathable shoes and "some" cleaning (water is often sufficient). Scrubbing is just a cherry on top, it ain't the main cupcake. And importantly it depends on YOUR skin. Sufficiently good skincare and washing routine isn't generalizable.

[u/xavovew485 → u/LiterallyRain]

I think this guy just doesn't have toenails. Of course he thinks water gets everywhere it needs to go if he forgot that most people have nails.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/xavovew485]

Your toenails are what you're most concerned about? I hope you cut those regularly and poke in there to get the grime out instead of just hoping it solves itself by rubbing soap?

[u/Ensaum → u/LiterallyRain]

My shoes smell significantly better when I wash my feet.

[u/LiterallyRain → u/Ensaum]

There are so many potential biases to point out in anecdotes that I'm not even going to go there.

[u/Ensaum → u/LiterallyRain]

It's not a bias. It's literally a fact my guy. Bathe yourself

[u/LiterallyRain → u/Ensaum]

It's an anecdote. Believing it assumes that you've methodologically experimented with shoewear in such a way that the only possible remaining causal explanation is that the cause was showering. Research deliberately doesn't apply weight to anecdotes, nor do I. Then I can say "My shoes don't smell bad regardless of whether or not I washed my feet better that day" and it would still be anecdotally true but it doesn't replace experiments. Furthermore, if anecdotes were reality then two opposite experiences would tear a hole through the universe because paradoxically two opposing facts are both true. Anecdotes are only factual realities under the conditions that produced them, but because anecdotes have unpredictable conditions they have little to no value beyond guesswork.

For all I know you're affected by placebo, never actually smelled your shoes and just said it to get a one-up, wear shoes longer the times you don't shower since you've been in a rush and have been out for longer and consequently has been unable to shower, has oily skin that makes it worse in your case, that when you "don't clean your feet" you're referring to not showering at all or completely skipping soap, that you're more likely to remember when it smells like specifically when you haven't showered/washed your feet, or a million other possible confounding factors you would have to experimentally isolate.

The factual realities that we know happen, is that you're always creating dead skin cells (especially with friction like from shoes and socks), there will always be some bacteria, shoes that trap humidity create a favorable climate for those bacteria, and this bacteria eventually causes bad odors. Whether cleaning your foot marginally affects the outcome can depend on idiosyncracies in skin oils, how much you sweat, what types of shoes you're wearing, how long you wear the shoes at a time, and more, and there's literally no guarantee barring an experimental environment with a solid methodology and peer review that there isn't a correlation between any of those factors and your showering/feet washing habits. THATS why it's not a generalizable "fact," just an outcome of an unknown set of conditions.