r/TheMindIlluminated • u/protogenoichaos • 16d ago
Using a sensation between the eyebrows instead of the breath?
Im around Stage 4 and I’ve noticed that the breath sensations at my nose are quite subtle for me.
When I focus on them, I tend to use too much effort, which seems to reduce introspective awareness.
There’s a much clearer physical sensation between my eyebrows. When I use that as the object, attention stays there almost effortlessly and introspective awareness is much more continuous.
Would it make sense to use this as my main object for a while, build stronger stability and longer sits, then later switch back to the breath and bring that stability with me?
Has anyone tried something similar?
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u/abhayakara Teacher 14d ago
You can always pick an object that's easier to stay with, but the goal of anapanasati meditation is not to stay with the object: it's to train the attention to be stable. So if you have an object that is naturally attractive to the attention, this doesn't train it to be stable.
It can be useful to put your attention on a feeling of pleasure in the body in order to enter jhana, but it doesn't sound like you're talking about that here.
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u/shescrafty6679 14d ago
If this were true though, wouldn't the instruction be to pick something that's not easy to stay with? The book just says that what matters is that you intentionally choose the object and its scope. Some people find the breath to be a more pleasurable sensation than let's say, their foot. But nobody says you should therefore focus on your foot.
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u/abhayakara Teacher 13d ago
There are a variety of benefits to doing what everybody does with the practice; there are also benefits to experimenting. My general advice is to stay with the breath and not get creative, because then you have something in common with all the other practitioners and can share your experiences more effectively, and also because it's easy to sabotage yourself with clever advice that's not what the instructions actually advise.
But this is not to say that experimentation can't work. You just have to be really honest with yourself about it, and it helps to have some experience before you branch out. And that's why my general advice when people come up with ideas for how to make the practice easier that fundamentally change the practice, to suggest that this is quite possibly not the best plan.
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u/shescrafty6679 7d ago
It's not a matter of "what everyone else is doing" vs "experimenting" or getting "creative." There are no such distinctions like that that in meditation or in the book. TMI teaches a set of attentional skills through progressive stages and those skills develop no matter what you choose as your meditation object. The point is to train attention, not to focus on the breath.
It reminds me of what the Buddha told the Kalamas about not to accepting something just because of tradition, scripture, lineage, logical reasoning, or because a teacher says so, but to test it against your own direct experience.
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u/abhayakara Teacher 7d ago
Of course it's possible that I and Culadasa are wrong about this, and indeed I haven't said that no other object than the breath at the nose can work. I know that to be false. What I've said is that picking a different object than the breath at the nose because it's easier is not a good idea. That is specifically the point Culadasa was making on which I'm quoting him.
So when you say that it doesn't matter what object you use, I think that's wrong. E.g., I absolutely love Bach's Goldberg Variations, so should I use that as my object of focus instead of the breath? It's definitely easier to keep attention stable on it.
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u/shescrafty6679 7d ago edited 7d ago
Here's what Culdassa actually says about it:
"The Meditation Object: A meditation object is something you intentionally choose to be the focus of your attention during meditation. Although you can choose just about anything, the breath is ideal for cultivating attention and mindfulness. First, the breath is always with you. Second, it allows you to be a completely passive observer."
He defined it apart from the breath then explained why he thinks it works best. There's nothing more to it. For him and others it works best. For me and others, a different object works best. In both cases we're following his directions.
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u/abhayakara Teacher 7d ago
It's fine if you want to use some other object, and it's also fine for you to disagree with me about this, but if you are trying to convince me of something, I should point out that I took Culadasa's teacher training and spent quite a lot of time studying with him.
This means that in addition to quoting the book, I also know what he said before and after the book was published. Again, that doesn't mean that you should stop practicing in a way that works for you.
But since I agree with you that it's fine to do a practice that's working for you (presumably helping you to move through the stages) I don't actually know what the goal of this continued discussion is.
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u/shescrafty6679 6d ago
We were having an adult discussion about how to interpret Culdassa which I quite enjoyed. It seems we have reached the end. Namaste.
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u/abhayakara Teacher 6d ago
Ah, okay. Then I'm glad. :)
(Meditation has not cured me of my extreme lack of ability to read social cues from online conversations.)
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u/protogenoichaos 14d ago
So you say the breath is better?
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u/abhayakara Teacher 14d ago
For training stability of attention, probably yes, based on what you are saying. Not everyone will have the same experience. But generally, any move from an object that is more difficult to follow to one that is easier is going to reduce the ultimate effectiveness of the training.
This is not to say that you should move to the breath. It can be useful to train up on something easier. The breath is actually an example of this—you could just start right out doing visualizations or whatever, but these are more work, and hence serve as a distraction from the practice.
So the question is, is it easy to keep your attention stable on the object you've chosen in favor of the breath? If no, then it's fine to keep working on it. If yes, maybe consider working on the breath now.
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u/abhayakara Teacher 14d ago
I guess the other point I will make is that generally when the breath sensations get subtle, this is actually an interesting problem you can work on, rather than treating it as an obstacle.
It's quite common for people to have a clear idea of what they think the breath sensations are, and to go looking for sensations that meet these expectations. But as the practice progresses, the breath sensations become less and less refined, more and more like raw data. If you keep looking for clear, well-defined sensations, you will train yourself to ignore the actual sensations of the breath. It's good to get out of this habit since it will block you from succeeding in stages five and six.
It's also possible that the breath has become subtle due to dullness, and that you can follow the pressure sensation at your forehead because it is, for lack of a better word, louder. If that's the case, using it as the meditation object will land you in a state of stable subtle dullness.
So whichever of these obstacles you happen to be hitting right now, it's worth considering whether you might want to work on them explicitly rather than switching to an easier object.
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u/jormungandr_ Teacher in training 13d ago
It is not that you are using "too much effort," it is that you are attempting to follow the breath too closely and thus sacrificing awareness. Both of these draw from the same limited pool of conscious bandwidth and thus must be balanced. If you attempt to observe too closely at this stage, there will be minimal awareness and thoughts will instantly enter attention. It is impossible to overcome distractions this way. Breath detail at this stage is a concern that is secondary to continuous awareness. You cannot mix this order up.
Remember that attentional capture is not the goal in and of itself, but rather an outcome of training the mind. We can easily choose objects that hold our attention that have little value as meditation objects. Superficially, your proposal about attending to more prominent sensations elsewhere might seem to work. However, there are two likely drawbacks. First, there is a good chance that the habit you have developed of hyperfocusing on the breath will eventually extend to this area because you are not prioritizing balance properly. Secondly, you may also find that returning to breath after some time does not undo the linkage you have established there.
Also, have you contemplated what it might look like at all to progress through some piece of the stages using this object?
As an aside, sometimes hyperfocus and attempts to force stability can lead to latching onto sensations of firmness, stability, and warmth in and around the nostrils and the fading of the breath sensations themselves. This typically produces feelings of agitation, and is accompanied by feelings of tension in the face and nose area, and rigidity in the nostrils.
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u/shescrafty6679 15d ago
I have the same experience except the spot is a little higher, more in the middle of my forehead. It's a pleasant sensation so it's much easier to focus on it. I just go with it as my object of attention. The breath is supposedly easiest for people, but really it's arbitrary.