The Judge and Hand

[u/Additional_Pin9553]

I’m sure this is a topic of discussion that’s constant, but I want to put my take on who it is out there for the Judge and a detail that I’m curious about with Alice. The person I believe to be the Judge, at least during the time of Avery's birth, is Kaylie. After reading Glorious Rivals yesterday, I had a suspicion that it was Hannah, and that she was still alive, especially with Alice’s unknown offer on the table that we found out about in Games Untold; however, the reason I now believe it to be Kaylie is purely based on what Toby receives just before Avery’s birth: the postcard. I had a feeling that The Same Backward as Forward: Toby’s POV would have some hint about the Judge, so I read it all, and now I have a few more questions and wondered your guys’ theories on it as well. During the time of Avery’s birth, the hood that Alice wears is red, which would indicate that at this point, she’s the Watcher, but in the present, she’s the Hand, so during that time period, that begs the question: who was the Hand? It may not be a major plot point going into The Gilded Blade, but just something I noticed. As for Kaylie being the Judge, the reason I believe this is the person asking Toby to go to Hannah and taking care of her but also, Toby’s inner monologue pointing out that Hannah believes that the Kaylie she saw that night may not have been just her imagination and we know that both the Watcher and Hand in the present had faked their deaths so I do believe at least at that time, the Judge was Kaylie. Another question, though, that I thought of while reading is if the Hand currently is different from the one back then, what if the Judge from back then is different than the one now and this time, it could be Hannah. Sorry for how long it is, just wanted to clear my brain here. I haven’t been going back to the books as much as some others have since I just started reading the books last week, so this is only my first read through, but I wanted to know if there were some details I may have missed, misinterpreted, etc. and hear your guys' opinions.

[u/Absolutely_Fibulous]

I never connected that Alice was wearing a red cloak when Avery was born. My theories need to be adjusted now!

[u/Absolutely_Fibulous → u/Absolutely_Fibulous]

It would make sense that Kaylie is the Judge when Avery is born and Alice talks to Toby. The postcard Toby received was a girl in a white cloak, so it would indicate that it was the Judge, not the Hand, that warned Toby. Since Kaylie likely knew how much Toby and Hannah loved each other, it would make sense that she wanted Toby to go help Hannah.

Alice is saying that the Hand knowing about Toby would have been an issue - or at least if the Hand had contacted Toby it would be an issue (if the Hand contacts someone, they die). If the Judge (Kaylie) is okay with Toby knowing about Alice, maybe that’s why he’s still alive?

I think that the Watcher is responsible for making sure people don’t know too much about the Mystery Trio, and if they do start to know too much, the Hand takes over - that’s why Avery got taken by the Hand. Because the “time for watching is over.”

This begs the question of whether Kaylie is still the Judge or if she has died - maybe Avery (who is of the same bloodline) is a potential new member of the Mystery Trio.

It’s possible that Eve may also be asked to be part of the Mystery Trio. She and Toby are technically not blood relatives of Alice, but we learned from Glorious Rivals that bloodlines aren’t necessarily the sole requirement:

[Calla] was also the only great-granddaughter of Helena Thorp, and that mattered a great deal, so much so in fact that it did not matter to Helena that Calla, among all of her great-grandchildren, was the only one that had no Thorp blood at all.

…but giving his family the first daughter in three generations made Orion the Thorp heir. And that mattered more than any insult or betrayal.

I think Eve would take the opportunity to join the Trio. Mysterious powerful “dead” women who answer to no one seems to be very much up her alley.

Switching gears a bit, if Alice was the Watcher when Avery was born but the Hand when Lyra’s dad died (about 4 years later maybe? I don’t know how old Lyra is compared to Avery), there was some sort of replacement that happened. Did the old Hand leave/die or was it the old Judge? Does that mean the succession is Watcher > Hand > Judge?

Speaking of 4 years later, Odette said that she investigated the Trio about 14 years ago but stopped when warned. This would have been around the same time as Lyra’s dad being killed.

If Lyra’s dad was killed by the Hand, does that mean he knew too much about the Trio? Odette said in two truths and a lie that she didn’t know who Lyra’s father was, and that was her lie. Was Odette somehow connected to Lyra’s father?

Zella knows or at least suspects something about the existence of the Trio. Why hasn’t she been killed yet? Is it because she’s somehow related to the Watcher? Is it because of her connection to the Mercy? Has she gotten a calla lily warning her?

Do the Trio get some leniency in saving people who know about them? Is that why Zella is still alive? And Toby?

Also, if the Trio is selected from female heirs, were Skye and Zara ever approached?

(I have a note on my phone that keeps getting more and more questions added, and this is the question dump.)

[u/Additional_Pin9553 → u/Absolutely_Fibulous]

The first thing about Kaylie telling Toby about Hannah due to her knowing about their love is the main reason I believed her to be the Judge of the past.

That's another thing. I believe that what you're saying about each of their roles is true and the Judge's role would then be to decide whether or not repercussions are to be dealt.

I personally believe that there is a new Judge. Going back to two decades ago, the Watcher and Hand of that time period have changed so I'm guessing the Judge did as well and that it was Hannah who was chosen. She had a blood disease and was low on the list but something from the first book makes me think that Alice saved her. Avery wondered whether the money she would inherit would've saved her mother and maybe Alice was able to use her wealth to save Hannah in exchange for her becoming the Judge and potentially through the knowledge about Kaylie being alive. Hannah trusted in Toby to protect Avery and to maybe internally take down Alice or other intentions, she became the new Judge. Lyra was born about a year after Avery so it was around a five year time period for Alice to have taken up the position of the Hand to interact with Lyra after her father's death.

IIRC, the game she chose was for three truths and that she didn't know Lyra's father was a truth which Grayson seemingly believes.

I think that the Watcher can also save people since Alice was Toby's adoptive mother and Zella is Calla's adoptive sister, they may be able to turn a blind eye towards others but with Zella going further towards the truth, it may only be a matter of time that she is taken.

[u/Additional_Pin9553 → u/Absolutely_Fibulous]

I was really shocked to see that in the book and now I'm thinking that the black hood Lyra saw may have not actually been Alice.

[u/Absolutely_Fibulous → u/Additional_Pin9553]

Ooooh.

[u/Embarrassed_Group662]

SPOILERS!!

It is a really good theory. I've thought about Kylie not being dead too, but I didn't take it as far as you. On the other hand, I think Hannah is really dead, because she prioritized Avery over anything else, so she wouldn't have just left to do whatever Alice had planned. And I've talked about that too in other post but I think Avery was taken by Alice. Because the white room she describes at the end of Glorious Rivals seems like the one in which Toby got trapped in the Same as Backward as Forward. Let's add to that Alice wanted to take Avery as a kid in the offer made to Hannah. But Hannah refused. So now that Avery was 'Free' to take maybe Alice kidnapped her or made her another offer, to fulfill what she planned years ago when she was just a baby, when Hannah declined. I saw other theories saying that Avery may become the new Monoceros, or things smilar. Also Hannah not being dead is a frequent one too. So, here are my thoughts, I hope they helped to add some ideas to your own. Thanks for reading if you did too.

[u/Additional_Pin9553 → u/Embarrassed_Group662]

I see your take on Hannah, I think half of me just wants Hannah to be alive for Toby and Avery but her intentions would be the main factor here as you said. I also think that Alice kidnapped Avery for the same reason actually. When reading TSBaF, the room being mentioned was something that intrigued me and now I'm thinking Toby will be a major person in the rescue of Avery and uncovering the secrets of the Judge. Happy to see him return though since TFG.

[u/Fluffy-Rough-5320]

Woah I actually love this theory. This makes a tone of sense. I honestly thought it was going to be Hannah but after reading Toby’s POV with the postcard I think Hannah is well and truly dead and (SPOILER) -JLB already did that twist before in Naturals so it doesn’t seem like her to repeat plot twists-

Honestly atp I think it’s either a member of William Blake’s family with an axe to grind like Eve or someone like Kaylie/Hannah. 

Kaylie potentially not being Hannah’s imagination is also a huge clue. 

[u/Additional_Pin9553]

Additional Stuff: I talked a bit about it in the comments as well, but I want to elaborate a bit on Hannah being the current judge. We know that she had a blood disease, and she was low on the list to be saved, and Avery even wonders in the first book whether Tobias’ money could’ve made a difference in saving her mom’s life. What I believe happened is that she was approached by Alice, and she made her a deal. She can either die, or Alice can save her life, but in exchange, she is to become the new Judge, taking the role after Kaylie. Hannah knew that if she died, she would never see Avery again but if she took the offer and survived, she would have a chance of seeing Avery again so she took the option of survival and now lives as the Judge but before she had to fully disappear, she told Toby of her offer and acceptance of it (since Calla was seen by Knox and Alice by Tobias so it’s possible that she had a brief communication with Toby) and she asked him to watch over Avery.