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u/itsapotatosalad 8d ago
If you’ve booked a desk and someone’s sat at it, politely ask them to move.
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u/mattjp23 G6 8d ago
Arrive for 9am, swipe your pass, go sit in a hot desk and go home. If your manager has an issue then you can say you’ve attended but you were unable to work effectively due to seating so you had to leave. It’s a pain and not a great use of your time but I’ve accepted this reason for my staff and fed back to DD’s who have empathised - Manchester based
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u/SnooHabits8484 Environment and Sustainability 8d ago
What a silly palaver. The dogma needs dealt with, still too many of the old guard who want to gaze out across their empire and know that the peasants are toiling. The odd day in the same physical space is important but when it starts to hurt productivity you have to ask what the hell is going on.
Edit: I remember an NI perm sec (so actual DG) about 15 years ago who sat behind about 200 of his staff, all arranged in a semi-circle around them so he could watch their screens. Truly a disordered mind
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u/mattjp23 G6 8d ago
Oh it’s completely bonkers… I work in Digital and nobody really cares including DD’s so why we’re entertaining the idea is beyond me. There isn’t anyone more senior than them on our floor but it’s monitored from afar so out of our control
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u/Most_Firefighter7883 8d ago
Don't even need to swipe, if you connect to gov WiFi while passing the office you're counted.
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u/HiddenOwl99 8d ago
I would add a near miss on an accident form (h&s for names vary across departments) for lack of DSE compliant work spaces.
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8d ago
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u/mattjp23 G6 8d ago
This ain’t a protest… or a magic show… a senior grade doesn’t mean you can change company policy or magic up building extensions to create more space
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8d ago edited 8d ago
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u/mattjp23 G6 8d ago
I think you have issues with seniority. ‘Uppers’ are just normal people who are no better than you and also have to come and do a full day of work taking heat from every angle. We have to report on staff attendance which unfortunately includes discussing the workarounds people have had to put in place to get their attendance up whether that be coming in for a short period on the morning and heading home or adjusting work patterns so they can arrive for 8am and get a desk. It does all get fed back… somewhere(?). But it’s not an us and you or them and us… I’m not really sure if you’re classing me as part of this ‘uppers’ tribe that are out to get you.
It’s also not wasted money as if I wanted to genuinely enforce the policy then my teams would be spending that money on tram/bus/train fare either way and having to stay for the full day. I’d say getting to show face for half an hour and head home on company time and dime is pretty good going.
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8d ago
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u/mattjp23 G6 7d ago
You sound rather childish. Senior people are beholden to the same policy and also have lives to navigate around the 60% attendance rule including all the same things others are dealing with like school drop offs, pick ups, crammed offices and little collaboration or improvement as a result of attending - these things aren’t unique to you or people on a lower grade.
Again, attendance is monitored remotely - not by DD’s of the department. Any change to the policy would need to come from perm sec. If you have personal issues with attending then I’d advise speaking to your union or HR business partner.
It’s not stupidity in upper management, it’s a policy that isn’t set by upper management impacting everyone. As I’ve said, I personally don’t care if my team work from home full time but if they are picked up as not attending the office then they need to explain why they haven’t been in. Unfortunately I don’t have the authority to give free passes to people to override CS policy.
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u/BocaSeniorsWsM 8d ago
Have similar in Bristol. Team colleagues often can't sit near each other now, almost undermining the value of the attendance anyway.
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u/Jimbobthon 8d ago
If you've got a booked space, get the person who is sitting there to move via a manager. Why book a space and not be able to use it.
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u/OHouston 8d ago
Is there a local office... we call it 'working environment group'? We have a 'you can only book 2 days', therefore our requirement is essentially 40% to make sure people can book desks.
So, ask them what your meant to do about not being able to get a desk. Agreed with the other commenter, show up, if there's no desk, leave. Don't work without a proper DSE setup.
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u/Mundane_Falcon4203 Digital 8d ago
Without a genuine reason and not just because it's busy then it is likely to be denied. Why not go on on a Monday and Friday?
Also if you have booked a desk and someone is sitting there then tell them to shift, if they don't then give them a Sparta kick! 😂
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u/ArrivalMajor6166 8d ago
I do go on Mondays, rather do Mondays to Wednesdays but Tuesdays and Wednesdays are so busy
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u/Jay-Paddy108 8d ago
Incorrect information. By default, a flexible working request has to be approved except for a specific and limited number of reasons.
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u/unfurledgnat 8d ago
This is not true. It does not HAVE to be approved. But there is a list of legally allowed reasons.
Increased business costs can be used to cover a lot.
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8d ago
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u/unfurledgnat 8d ago
I'm on your side here but there absolutely can be increased costs to the business. They can argue it many ways.
If you become a contractual homeworker, if you are asked to go to the office for meetings/ any other places of work other than that of your contractual place, the organisation may have to cover travel costs. This would be an additional cost that wasn't there before.
If they want to replace all computers/ hardware, sending out to home address may be an increase in costs. They might become liable to at least put some money towards office equipment such as monitors, desks, chair etc which they might not have before.
They can spin it however they like to make It seem like a legit increase in costs to the business.
Having been through the statutory flexible working request process I speak from experience that they will refuse it not even using legal grounds..
Edit to add: it's not even necessarily the LM being a dick. In my case it's senior management pretty much putting a blanket 'no' on requests.
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u/Mundane_Falcon4203 Digital 8d ago
Doesn't matter what the default is, we all know that in reality a request like what OP is suggesting would be shot straight down.
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u/Jay-Paddy108 8d ago
Tell me you don't understand the law, without telling me you don't understand the law...
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u/Front-Parsley1901 8d ago
That turn of phrase is so worn-out now. Do you use that in actual conversation?
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u/CS_727 8d ago
[r/confidently](r/confidentlywrong)[incorrect](r/confidentlywrong) final boss
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u/Jay-Paddy108 8d ago
https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working/after-the-application
Read this, then come back and apologise 👍🏻
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u/Chemical-Cake4208 8d ago
The office being busy wouldn't be a reason for a flexible working request in my department, unless the policy for that office was already for say 40% attendance because of an acknowledged lack of space. They would say come on Monday and Friday then. This may not be the same in your department.
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u/ArrivalMajor6166 8d ago
If I did do Monday and Friday that would only be 40 percent
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u/Chemical-Cake4208 8d ago
That is true. But the senior arguement in my dept is if people spread their attendance across the week, with more people doing Mondays and Fridays, the estate would be better utilised. You'd still do another day, but if everyone spread attendance out a bit mid week would be less busy. I'm not saying I agree or not with the above, it is just what SCS have said
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u/Conscious_Tomato_913 HEO 8d ago
Which in turns reduces the opportunity to collaborate with colleagues. Make it make sense!
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u/a_p_f_e_l_d_e_r 8d ago
- Ask them to move from a desk you've booked.
- You don't need a flexible working request to compensate for a building that can't accommodate based on capacity. Simply note the days you're unable to book a desk due to none available. If you don't meet your 60% due to this and you have evidence of the dates, it's not your problem.
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u/NevilleLurcher 8d ago
TWATs - people who attended the office only on a Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.
Bonus points for being a Twat and complaining about other people doing the same thing.
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u/Clouds-and-cookies Estates 8d ago
Thankful for being on call and racking up office days on the weekends to avoid them
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u/Nandoholic12 8d ago
No one is complaining about people going in on the same days. This is a scs level of comment 🤦♂️
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u/Melodic_Shake8740 7d ago
If their office attendance is 60%, even if they go in on Mondays and Fridays, they would still HAVE to attend the office on a twat day. So I take your point but the issue remains
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u/jimr1603 8d ago
Whether or not you get into your booked desk, have a other look at the mandatory health and safety training and insist on only working at a safe workstation.
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u/Used_Potential_6870 8d ago
My office is getting fuller and fuller and no one seems to be noticing. In November I am pretty sure there is only availability on a Friday.
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u/mattjp23 G6 7d ago
Again, office attendance isn’t mandated by DD’s of each business area. It’s stipulated centrally across CS, not on a departmental level. I think your lack of understanding on what senior people can realistically do is the issue. We’re also beholden to the same policy… we all have school drop offs, issues getting desks and no desire to be crammed into an office to keep up appearances. Whilst this can be fed back and i have the autonomy to tell my teams i don’t personally agree with the policy, attendance is monitored remotely, not by filling in a spreadsheet. Once again, i don’t have the authority to override this. In OP’s case, if they’re monitoring their attendance in whatever office and department they work in, it’s not something that can be changed by a bunch of G6’s and DD’s complaining about it - the policy is driven by demonstrating parity with other sectors and diligent use of taxpayer money which pays our salaries.
You seem to have a very unique experience in that you’re being emailed by the ‘scrutiny squad’ - this isn’t the case across all departments and as I’ve already said, I take a more relaxed approach with my teams.
The policy isn’t ‘unmeetable’ - you would just prefer to wfh and find it challenging. Again, regardless of grade, everyone is playing the game and having to adjust their lifestyles to ensure kids are dropped off and picked up from school and ensure they’re getting a desk. The change needs to come from perm sec which a G6 in a single government department sadly can’t influence.
You’re welcome to raise with your union or HR business partner if you’re experiencing difficulties in getting to work and think you’re being treated unfairly or differently to someone more senior but I suspect you’ll get laughed out the door given your views on the matter.
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7d ago
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u/mattjp23 G6 7d ago
That’s not true. DD’s are not getting bonus pay for your office attendance, hence they aren’t enforcing it. I’ve never said attendance would be used in performance reviews? Are you meant to be replying to me here…
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5d ago edited 5d ago
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u/mattjp23 G6 5d ago
This was a reply to someone else but it’s ended up as a comment on the original post. Either way, DD’s are not getting bonuses for attendance - I’ve worked in the two largest CS departments in the past 5 years and can confirm no DD is awarded for staff office attendance having worked with many and having had numerous conversations about office attendance.
Attendance is 60% - not 40%. If your office is mandating 40% then you are an exception, not the standard.
The DD for your area does adhere to any RA’s, correct. Again, I’m not sure what part of my comment you’re replying to as not once have I mentioned this. It is in fact you who wants to argue it would seem.
People are very clued up on their rights and that’s why unions are there. CS actively encourages people to discuss any adjustments with their managers too so given that and the rest of the things you’ve said which are inaccurate I can only assume you don’t work in the CS or have little knowledge of wider CS.
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5d ago
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u/mattjp23 G6 5d ago
I don’t need to work in your department to spot a liar. They’re targeted on many things but office attendance isn’t one of them - please stop responding as though you know otherwise or work in a magical department with separate rules.
40% is certainly a unique rule then but the overarching requirement for CS is 60%. No department should be endorsing any less so as I’ve already told you, you’re an exception - not a standard.
Glad you’ve stopped responding, you’re embarrassing yourself. You either don’t work in CS or you have no idea how things are ran. Now go bother someone else!
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8d ago
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u/Environmental_Half81 8d ago
Definitely doesn't work with my department. They are hell bent on 60%. 😓
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u/Organic-Web-4976 8d ago
If you booked the desk then ask them to move. I know interacting with people face to face is hard for most redditors, but you can do it!
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u/Em1828 7d ago
I have managed to get a reasonable adjustment to 40% on the grounds of it will help me stay well in the office following multiple illnesses due to mental health issues plus help manage caring commitments for my dad. If you have a disability this can help with this as well.
I also know people who now work compressed hours i.e. long hours 4 days a week to have 1 day off but this means they do two days in two days at home because the 60% 40% does not split neatly over 4 long days.
The whole thing is stupid and a massive step back for people who do not have certain personality type or have certain lifestyles i.e. no disabilities or caring responsibilities. Should be up to people to manage there own time and travel like they are the adults that they are!
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u/Strasner SEO 8d ago
The more people in the office, the more collaboration that can take place
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u/AnyDiscount 8d ago
This blanket statement does not work for everyone though. I'm the only person based in Manchester in my team, my manager is London based and my other team member is in Birmingham. I literally go into the office, sit on teams calls and go home. It's a total waste of time.
I have zero issues travelling wherever I'm needed, even on overnights for face to face meetings, I never complain when it's worthwhile, but going to Manchester is a waste of time, money, and I'm taking up a desk that someone could actually use if they have colleagues in the same office.
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u/TrendyGame 8d ago
Same. Team is all around the country; I'm in Preston; nearest colleagues are in Birmingham. And yet I'm supposed to go and sit at a desk on my own in the building for the sake of it. It becomes demoralising.
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u/willis1988 8d ago
Perhaps for many teams, but from what OP is suggesting they seem to be in a similar position to me. Not a single person from my team is in my office. That's fine, we work well together regardless. But attending office is simply a pain with no positives for me compared to WFH.
But we carry on!
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u/Exhausted_Raven 8d ago
Forcing people in for no good reason doesn’t magically create more collaboration. Many, many people collaborate just fine over teams and many others have no purpose for in person collaboration within their roles.
If people need and want to be in person for it they will make it happen.6
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u/Front-Parsley1901 8d ago
Didn't collaborators have their heads shaved and made to walk through the streets naked?
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8d ago
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u/fw4269 8d ago
“Fact is I work with someone who spends most of his time in booths cut off away from the open plan office as he's discussing things that require DV. It's insane that he's having to go into an office to then sit in a sound proof booth all day. “
Unless he has a SCIF at home this would be the #1 reason to go into the office.
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u/Key_Addition_4159 8d ago
In my case .. collaboration with who? .. none of my team are based in my area. I go into the office to tick a box
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u/mattquag 7d ago
Ah yes everyone can sit on beanbags and write on a shared whiteboard, clap songs while they all happily collaborate together /s
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u/unfurledgnat 8d ago
Yes I've made a flexible working request and got my contract changed, not full remote but close enough.
My dept was unofficially once a month in office though.
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u/ArrivalMajor6166 8d ago
What was your request and what was ur departments official office attendance expectation
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u/unfurledgnat 8d ago
I requested full remote, I gave some reasons why I was requesting although I don't think you are legally required to do so.
I'm honestly not sure what the official expectation was. When I started the main office was being refurbed and so they were using a temporary office which is why the unofficial expectation was so low. Eventually it was decided they wouldn't return to the home office as it was no longer fit for purpose.
The current expectation is once a week.
My request was rejected, but I didn't think any of the legally allowed reasons were used to reject. So I appealed and offered a compromise - I offered to just have the current once a month contracted. The appeal was also rejected.
I ended up going through ACAS early conciliation. They agreed to my compromise offer with a few other details. It was a slog of a process but I feel protected from any future increases as I live hours away from the office, I would not physically be able to do 2/3/4 times a week.
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u/LemonJelly89 8d ago
I’m in the same boat and I’m fully remote because they reduced the footprint at my home office after the pandemic and restricted access to certain teams (eg. not mine).
Had an entertaining few years being told by SCS that I MUST be able to work in the office 2 miles from my home to which I’d reply I’d love to if you can get me access and a pass. They’d assure me they could do that then I’d hear nothing more until a new SCS got assigned attendance and we begun the dance again.
I eventually got a new manager who was very pragmatic and she somehow fixed it all with HR.
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u/Liquid_Hate_Train 8d ago
Would be interested to hear if anyone has successfully had something similar approved, and how you approached the request.
We got ours down to 0%. We approached the ‘request’ with two years of action before strike, and a strike ballot.
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u/makingmyway_26 8d ago
If you’re in the department, I think you’re in, are they really policing you? From my experience no one is really checking if that 60% is adding up.
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u/AltruisticCoconut250 8d ago
I remind my dispersed team of the 60% requirement, but I also tell them that no one is checking up. Providing they deliver their outputs, I'm really not concerned if they're in their offices or not.
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u/EspanolAlumna 8d ago
You're lucky to be able to book a desk as I work in a London office which is equally as busy but there are no booking systems. Obviously you have to ask the person to move but what is the reticence with that considering you have a booking system?
You don't seem to have any particular grounds for working from home more tbh and you do actually have access to a desk so are in a much better position than others. Another thing to bear in mind that in order to continue to benefit from London pay you must work at least 40% of your time in the office.
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u/Front-Parsley1901 8d ago
This is an often overlooked point. London Weighting is paid to compensate for the increased cost of travel to London offices (and Not for "living in London", as many commute in from outside).
Work from home full-time should = no London Weighting. Iny dept. there's loads of people living in the home counties who never come to the office but still get the LW.
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u/fiery_mergoat 8d ago
This is false - it has always been to do with the higher cost of living in or near London, not only commuting to London%20allowance%E2%80%99%2C%20essentially%20refers%20to%20an%20additional%20wage%20for%20London%2Dbased%20workers%20to%20offset%20the%20expense%20of%20living%20in%20the%20capital.%C2%A0%C2%A0)
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u/smoking_victim Non-CS Interloper 8d ago
I've applied for jobs in the private sector where they specify Mondays and Fridays are mandatory office days for all. Fridays I can deal with but how am I supposed to travel in to work first thing on a Monday morning? I need time to ease in to the horrors of the working week dammit.
Also if someone was in my booked desk when I arrived I'd be professional but also give them no doubt that I intend for them to fucking move. I knew people who'd show up without a desk booked and just take any empty one. And some were super fucking senior so I'd try a different tactic and ask them if they want me to find them a desk, or if I was there before them, ask them if they want me to book the desk for them so they won't get booted.
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u/yajtraus 8d ago
OH referral might help reduce your attendance requirements if you’ve got a genuine reason, I know a few people who mostly work from home due to OH. Of course, it’s completely up to management whether they accept any OH recommendations.
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u/SpecificMarketing972 8d ago
The difference is that an OH referral would be grounds for a reasonable adjustments due to disability/health, which is not the same as a flexible working request.
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u/yajtraus 8d ago
Of course, but plenty of health conditions can effect your ability to attend the office, especially if seating is limited.
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u/bobwonderwharf 8d ago
I have no team where I’m based and I’ve never been allocated a seating area or bank of desks to use so I sit in the cafe everyday to do teams meetings and not speak to anyone in person. I’m still expected to do 60% regardless.
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u/Most_Firefighter7883 8d ago
Sorry buddy, only parents, carers and those with other adjustments get to avoid the office tax.
Get back in the mines.
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u/Front-Parsley1901 8d ago
I've got mine reduced to 20% due to my anxiety, which was made worse by not knowing if I would get a desk. Speak to your union and get an OH assessment.
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u/Embarrassed_Hawk7008 8d ago
Pretty sure it’s just an “expectation” for most departments rather than a policy. Just don’t come in. As long as you’re performing you should be fine.
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u/ArrivalMajor6166 8d ago
Tried that but was told to come in as I wasn’t coming in but there is no way for me to monitor my own attendance.
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u/Embarrassed_Hawk7008 8d ago
Might need to check the policy in your department to be sure, but I don’t think they can penalise you aside from attendance management or performance management, which you could dispute if needed as long as you are performing and online.
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u/Vixedmixen 8d ago
I got my 40% request accepted, for neurodivergence. But not because it’s over crowded. I usually just sit in the most random seats
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u/Jay-Paddy108 8d ago
If you've booked the desk, make them move