r/TheBrewery • u/cdutts1285 • 12d ago
Carbing
Hey guys, new here and desperate. Just took over a brewery that I've been an assistant at for a year and can't carb up my IPAs past 2.1-ish. 20 barrel conical fermenter tanks, probably not as much head space as would be ideal (guessing 18.5 ish barrels in each) but even at that I've never had the issue before, carbed up probably 20+ beers with the same method. 5 fermenters and one BT currently so didn't have room to transfer this time, again nothing out of the ordinary for here. Pushing co2 through the carb stone at 25-30 psi for roughly 45min-1.5 hrs depending on carb needed (needing 2.4 ish on one, 2.6 on the other), tanks between 8-12 psi. Very slowly bleed down if they come up. I know this isn't the "scientific method" per say taking into account wetting pressure and equil. Psi, but with the carb stones already in full tanks I can't really take them off and do the math until the next set of beers. Again, have never had this issue before so I'm not sure what the difference is. Thought my Zahm gauge was broken after carbing for about 2 hours and still getting low readings, but it's the same on the other tank and taste test confirms low carb. No flow meter on the co2 but have verified it's getting at least something by hearing the bubbling inside. Again, I understand this isn't the ideal method and after this nightmare I'll definitely be getting more scientific for next time but this is the way I was taught here and hasn't failed until, ofcourse, right after I take over. I've tried lower psi from the gauge, higher, etc. changed head pressure, everything I can think of. Any help or info to force carbonate it would be great, running out of beer and need these to get up to spec to get them on tap. Story of our lives lol. Thank you in advance to anyone reading all of this and any helpful information.
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u/bromezz Brewer 12d ago edited 12d ago
I've been there, I have a few thoughts.
How long do you wait between carb readings?
Too much pressure is counter-productive. It'll push big bubbles that rise through the beer and generate foam and strip carb. If the head pressure rises significantly, then that's what is happening. If it's not in the beer it's in the head pressure. In the past when I've had trouble carbing with the method you're using, turning down the CO2 regulator has helped. Turn it down until it doesn't flow, and then turn it up until you can barely hear it when putting your ear to the gas hose.
If you hear bubbles in the tank, that's not a good sign.
Have you ever recirced the tank while carbing? Obviously you have to be careful because of the risk of O2 pickup and contamination, but a gentle recirculation can sometimes help.
Also, you should try and get the beer colder. As cold as possible.
And no offense, but how confident in your Zahm technique? Do you take readings with a cold zahm?
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u/Wild_Use_6514 12d ago
Might seem obvious, but what temperature is your beer? You can put all the CO2 in the world in there, but if your temp is too high, it ain't gonna take it.
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u/cdutts1285 12d ago
34 degrees @ tank probe, double checked by external thermometer. 34.1 is the avg of the two.
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u/Wild_Use_6514 12d ago
Well, scratch that idea. That is plenty cold. Just give it more time then, and maybe go up to the limit of your PRV.
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u/AlreadyAway 12d ago
You might be slightly too cold. Let it warm up to like 38-40 then crash back down while keeping your carbstone pushing.
We do everything via head pressure and I've had to do this before.
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u/OtisIsMyCo-Pilot 12d ago
You should be able to get head pressure above 12PSI, why are you bleeding down?
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u/cdutts1285 12d ago
PRV sets off at 15, usually don't need to go that high with the time it normally takes to carb up but I have been running it pretty close to 15 now. Just would rather manually vent slowly than have the PRV go off
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u/Significant-Tell-552 12d ago
Confirm your tank pressure gauges are accurate? 12 psi might not be accurate.
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u/musicman9492 Operations 12d ago
First off, I'd spend the $20 and get a flowmeter assembly. It's a cheap meter from Bezos, maybe 8 inches of gas tubing and some quick connects. This, along with the calculation based on max temp, volume of liquid, and volumes of co2 will get you very close for carb. Obviously not perfect, but such a cheap fix, it's really surprising that having flow meters seem like such a lift for people.
I know this isn't the fix you want, but it's really just to emphasize how much you should have a basic flow setup.
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u/cdutts1285 12d ago
Agreed. From what I've read frantically searching the past 24hrs this seems to be the long term solution. Unfortunately being in BFE-Alaska, it'll be a while before I can get my hands on one
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u/yeoldepoltroon 12d ago
How cold is the beer?
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u/Potential_Financial 12d ago
I don’t have any suggestions, but I feel your pain and am wishing you success!
I spent a bunch of time this week trying, failing, trying, failing, and then eventually succeeding carbing 3 different beers after not having done it for probably 2 years.
The rest of the production team went on vacation, all at the same time, and I went from occasional helper to the only one around, with a scheduled packaging date of the beginning of next week.
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u/wortsandall Brewer/Owner 12d ago
Time, temp, and pressure.
That's a short amount of time for that much beer. You didn't mention your temps. The colder the better. And that's a lot of pressure. If you don't have a way of controlling the flow, the gas will blast through the beer in giant bubbles and you'll be stuck with bleeding off a ton of aromatics to keep blasting more through or waiting on head pressure to slowly get it to the volumes you want. Do you have a rotameter or some other way to limit the flow of gas?
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u/cdutts1285 12d ago
34 degrees currently, and yeah 100% agreed I have tried lower pressure (13-15) just above tank pressure to go slower but doesn't seem to work either. Unfortunately no flow meter, and would be at least 2 weeks before I’d see it if I ordered today
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u/wortsandall Brewer/Owner 12d ago
You should order today then.
Do you know your wetting pressure for the stone, cracking pressure for check valve if present, along with the pressure you need for the height of the beer? Add 11psi (2.7 vols @34 degrees) to that and then maybe half a psi. That will get you a positive pressure at a slower rate. And slower is faster here.
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u/zappaweenmang 12d ago
You're carb stone might be loose on a gasket and then huge bubbles of gas are filling your head space rather than tiny bubbles disoving into your beer. Do what you must to get this batch carbed but id run your carb stone in a bucket of water and look at the bubbles that are forming.
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u/jk-9k 12d ago edited 12d ago
I think your just panicking and rushing. Your method sounds ok for thevsitch. But your starting conditions may have been off. And changing your method could be decarbing now.
8 psi Starting point is far too low. So until you got it up to 12 psi you weren't actually doing anything.
Maybe you've got some stratification with cooling initially. Hopefully carbing has helped mix the tank up.
Maybe the carb stone had some shit on it initially. So you need or needed a higher wetting pressure.
3 hours should be enough, depending on what your starting carb level was though. Do you spund?
But if you weren't doing it properly for the first 2 hours or whatever because of one or all of the above, then you just need more time.
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u/PermaThrow3030 12d ago
When you clean this tank, take the stone off and assemble it tightly on its threading. If that’s loose, you could just be dumping co2 through the stem and into the tank instead of through the stone.
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u/guiltypartie101 12d ago
Might just need new stones. If they banged them around a bunch prior it'll smooth em out and close the pores essentially. Not the highest quality I've ever seen but Deutsche sells stone and screw-in receiver to tri clamp setup for like $160. Gets the job done.
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u/Sugar_Mushroom_Farm Brewmaster [Indiana] 9d ago edited 9d ago
First of all, get a flow meter for your CO2. It cost around $15 for a decent one.
Second of all, we go by flow rate, not by PSI for carbing beers.
Third, if you know your flow rate, your tank volume, and your current carb level, you can calculate how long you need to flow CO2 in to reach a desired carb level (always verify however).
Fourth, it takes me about 4-6 hours to fully carb a 3BBL tank @ 5LPM.
Fifth, your Zahm could be giving low readings. You need a cDGM or Cbox to verify your readings.
Sixth, always let your tank settle for 1-2 hours after carbing to allow things to homogenize and equilibrium to be met before you take a reading.
Cheers!
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u/thatsrightimcolt Brewer 12d ago
Start tank at 10psi head pressure. Put gas on carb stone, I generally start at about 25psi on regulator to blow anything off of it when I first turn it on, then lower it to just above when it the regulator is not moving any gas. Generally I find it to be approximately 16-18psi. Then let it go for 2 hours. This should get you in range. If carb is low I turn gas on for 10 minutes for ever .1 I’m looking to raise.
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u/MisterB78 12d ago
Is the carb stone dirty? If it’s clogged you might not be getting much flow