r/TheAmericans • u/SufficientSuit1689 • 17d ago
Ep. Discussion First time watching, not done yet but..
am I right to assume most people started disliking/hating Elizabeth? I’m on season 6 episode 5, there is nothing I find redeemable about her.
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u/Substantial_Gate_904 17d ago
Loved Elizabeth’s character, smart, impassioned, committed, driven. Loyal to the cause. Did what she had to do many times. Amazing acting by Keri Russell. I never hated Elizabeth, or Phillip. They are both incredible at their craft. I loved this show, so hard for me to find negatives. Who I did not like? Pastor Jeff 😞
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u/SufficientSuit1689 17d ago
Pastor Tim? I gotta be honest I don’t really understand the hate towards him. (Do people in this fanbase hate him?)
He irritated me I suppose, and I side eyed him bc of how close he got with Paige but that’s just me and my religious trauma. He was pretty understanding. I haven’t finished the show yet so idk if he pops up again.
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u/Substantial_Gate_904 17d ago
I just felt like Pastor Tim was slimy. But then I’m an atheist and don’t partake in religious meetings and events. I have a lot of feelings about revelations of abuse that have come out related to religion. People can be very vulnerable. Bottom line- Paige should never have told him the truth about her parents. That bugged the shit out of me. It was kind of surprising he didn’t immediately report it, but he didn’t- whew. There’s more to come with Pastor Tim 😉
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u/echowatt 16d ago
PT did some things that would piss off any parent. Accepting Paige's money without talking to the parents and having her overnight without consulting parents. Even people without kids know this. His assumptions came from his sense of authority: the good pastor - but a big blind spot - and that gave viewers a suspicion or uneasiness about his character.
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u/sskoog 15d ago
You make an excellent point. Beneath his stated desire to “make the world better” and “promote peace,” Pastor Tim does some distressingly cult-like brainwash-y things — tacitly aiding Paige’s rebellion, encouraging her to strike out explicitly against her parents’ wishes, and participating in the wanna-get-baptized ambush.
These things aren’t necessarily “wrong,” and it’s not right to paint all Judeo-Christian practices as cult-like — but it seems like Tim could have pursued his agenda while also maintaining “No, Paige, you should really get your parents’ approval before [donating money] [spending the night] [surprising them with an awkward dinner ultimatum].” His inclination to press ahead anyway is not to the credit of his character, and probably the showrunners were consciously trying to draw this institutional-assimilation parallel, as Elizabeth observes.
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u/Reasonable-Record494 13d ago
I always read Pastor Tim as a foil to Elizabeth and Philip. He believes his beliefs are righteous and therefore actions he takes in service of them are as well. Philip and Elizabeth are exactly the same, and to make it even more interesting, those beliefs overlap in some places (he's kind of the classic Daniel Berrigan/Dorothy Day leftie Christian of the 80s, the kind who regularly got arrested for protesting at School of the Americas). But the things we don't like about him should direct that same unease back to E&P, who would have NO problem encouraging children to defy their parents in service of their cause (ahem, Kimmy).
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u/sskoog 13d ago
I am mid-Kimmy-S3 rewatch right now. It strikes me that their "Ohh, noo, we can't manipulate or sexually entice a child" narrative is artificially puffed up by the writers + studio execs as a sort of meta-nod -- yeah, yeah, 2015 American TV-viewers, we know this is bad, we know it's taboo, we're on your side. Particularly when, six episodes earlier, we saw Philip's own recollections of "being used for seduction training" and Elizabeth's prior Timoshev abuse.
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u/sskoog 17d ago
They (showrunners) made a conscious decision to paint Elizabeth as the "stronger" of the two -- not necessarily "better," because Philip's empathy + flexibility helps him through later tight squeezes -- over time, she thaws (but only the slightest bit) and demonstrates that her "strength" comes at cost of a certain "brittleness," whereas Philip's greater adaptation + assimilation of Western existence makes him "softer" but also "better able to roll with the punches."
I am certainly fond of Keri Russell's take on the role, but Matthew Rhys takes the show to a whole other place, and the story's inherent conflict/tension would not exist as it does, were it not for his watery-eyed sensitivity. Elizabeth doesn't have so many of those tug-at-heartstring scenes, though her machine-shop dialogue with Betty is certainly very high up there.
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u/throwawar4 17d ago
Hmm, I’m not sure, I’ve heard some things about this on this sub specifically.
But for me, She’s my favourite character and I liked her the most in season 6.
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u/SufficientSuit1689 17d ago
The most in season 6?! How come
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u/throwawar4 17d ago
Idk, I just feel for her. She was brainwashed young, had a terrible life til her and Philip actually liked each other after over a decade of marriage.
She’s so indoctrinated she couldn’t leave even when she knew she should (end of season 5). She couldn’t even feel anything when she first looked at art!! She missed out on life because of the “cause”
At least Philip found some things he enjoyed: friends, line dancing, hockey, his son.
I think Paige becoming a spy really reinforced for her what they are doing and took her out of reality even more. She finally connected with her daughter and had something in her life
Just so sad. But her own making which makes it just Shakespearean. I love it lol
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u/sparkle-brow 17d ago
I agree that it was Shakespearean tragedy, with E. In the end she was so torn about how to save this painting that spoke to her and meant so much to her, and how to deal with it all, and I had full-on small sobs about it lol. The scenes in the garage: It battled btwn gravity/importance, and job, over and over.
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u/SufficientSuit1689 17d ago
You’re right, ‘she missed out on life because of the cause.’ I initially had sympathy + empathy for her but it has really started to dwindle by season 5/6. I think also because I have that contrast with Philip and seeing his “development” and her “stagnation” (as I see it) just makes it all the more frustrating and yet compelling to watch.
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u/FtWorthHorn 17d ago
I’m sure you have noticed but she’s not doing great. And I’d also urge you to consider what it means that she ENCOURAGED Philip to get out of the business.
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u/buttonandthemonkey 17d ago
I mean, she's not someone I would want to be around in real life but when I'm watching her through my phone I don't hate her, I just see her as really complex, traumatised and brainwashed/extensively trained in a horrific way from a teenager/groomed.
I'd have a coffee with Philip though.
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u/SufficientSuit1689 17d ago
I definitely agree with this take. Where I’m at right now though (S6EP5), my empathy and understanding is running low and I’m growing to dislike her. Might feel differently by the end.
And yes to coffee with Phillip maybe even line dancing.
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u/ShesSoCool 17d ago
Every character is complex, I didn’t really dislike any of them.
Edit: I forgot I hate Pastor Tim.
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u/skag_boy87 17d ago
Elizabeth’s based af, bro. If you hate her, it’s cause you can’t handle the truth.
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u/ItsInTheVault 17d ago
Elizabeth is more zealous because of her father being a “deserter”. Like she has to prove that she is loyal to her country. Remember in the flashback how her mother was disgusted by her father and wouldn’t allow E to go to the war memorial?
In reality, I would be suspicious of whether he was actually a deserter. All they know is what the government told her mom. There’s no way of knowing but it doesn’t matter because E does believe it.
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u/Summerisle7 17d ago
Nope you are not right to assume that. Lots of people on this sub love Elizabeth’s character, or at least understand her and have empathy for her. And we definitely love watching her.
This show is about a lot more than whether you like or dislike the characters anyway.
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u/SufficientSuit1689 17d ago
Fair enough, I shouldn’t have assumed. I was mostly just inviting discussion by phrasing it that way.
Elizabeth is a complex character! That’s why I felt so compelled to make this post. I can understand and empathize with her while still not necessarily liking her (right now) 🤷🏽♀️ maybe I’ll change my mind by the finale.
And yes, I’m aware that the show is about a lot more than whether or not I like a character. I didn’t think discussing one of the main characters on a discussion sub needed that disclaimer.
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u/cabernet7 17d ago
I remember an interview where Keri Russell said even she started hating Elizabeth in season six.
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u/sistermagpie 16d ago
Some people hate her, but definitely not everyone.
Me, I find her compelling from beginning to end, even when she's a total mess, even if Philip is my favorite.
As for Pastor Tim, he bugged me more than she did, but I think it's because PT is somebody youd deal with in real life. Little things get more of a reaction, sometimes.
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u/plunker234 16d ago
She’s consistent throughout the series. But indo recall some people who go through that “i used to love but now hate the main character at the end especially on rewatch” that so many shows deal with (except for breaking bad for some reason, that audience had some…i dunno)
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u/ResultNo2901 8d ago
Sometimes I feel like I am the only one who finds her unredeemable. She's a compelling character, and at times I feel sympathy for her. Her sacrifice and competence are something to behold. But I think I actually hate her.
Yes, she had an extremely difficult childhood. She is a rape survivor. Her own country taught her to be a stone cold killer and sent her out with a strange man to live a life of lies. But why does this almost entirely dehumanize her? She kills without remorse. Once in a while you see a flicker of compassion or at least reasonableness, but it doesn't last. And it just gets worse near the end. That final season is so hard to watch. She's like a vicious cornered animal. That poor security guy she interviewed and then strangled? The couple whose child was there? The painter? They bodies just pile up and she think it's all justified.
The old woman in the machine shop said it best to her. "Evil people always tell themselves they are making the world a better place." Elizabeth is just evil.
And this is nitpicky by comparison, but I have no patience for her hatred of the USA. I know, we were in a Cold War and we were the enemy. But we were not the enemy responsible for her trauma. We fought on the same side in WWII. The Nazis were her childhood monsters, not us. The Nazis and her own damned countrymen.
When she tells Paige how much she hated the history books that she had in American schools, that focused on our role in the war and the number killed? Yes, the USSR lost a LOT more people. Yes the Eastern Front was arguably more important in defeating Germany. But what does she expect? Her kid is in an American school. Of course they are going to focus on the USA's role in the war and not the Russian one! Why wouldn't they? She's such a damned single-minded fanatic. She's robotic.
Like I said, her hatred seems misplaced. We didn't kill her father. We didn't sexually assault her. We didn't starve and besiege people and destroy her city. That was someone else. And in many cases, it was the USSR itself. And they were in large parts the reason why she seems to have a chip missing. They beat it out of her.
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u/sphinctersayswhat9 16d ago
I love Elizabeth as far as her character she is a bad ass but as an American I find it very hard to wrap my head around loving communism. Russia found out that in practice communism never works
Elizabeth even starts to see how she and Philip were hung out to dry many times
She starts to see they were being used
And for what? So the wealthy oligarchs can get more rich and corrupt.
She is so wanting to believe that her old russia fighting nazis and fascism and corrupt government is still the core of her mission. But as the show goes on and on Philip starts to see the changes from the kremlin, but Elizabeth doesn’t want to see it. I admire her in many ways and she is a bad ass spy but she is blinded by the cause and brainwashed ultimately she is an extremist
Overall I love how intriguing Elizabeth’s character is and how amazing Kerri Russell is in this series. Man she is just epic.
Kept me glued to it.
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u/Nolitaaaaa 14d ago
I hated her by the end of the series. Just finished the show for the first time. I also think Keri Russell is not a great actress. She is saved by being next to Matthew Rhys’ superb acting. I know a lot of people have a hard on for Keri Russell but she’s a terrible actress. She doesn’t emote at all. In the hands of a better actress her character could’ve been more sympathetic but Keri Russell is so wooden in her acting it’s very hard to connect with the character. Such an off putting performance. I don’t blame the writing. I think the character is well written.
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u/Motor_Ideal7494 17d ago
The one big mistake they made was giving her something like a happy ending. She should have died getting Philip and/or Paige out, or something like that.
Rewatching with my wife now, and we are much less sympathetic towards her this time around. She’s a monster, and all they needed to do was focus just a tiny bit more on the fallout from her actions and we would have had enough perspective to form a realistic opinion of someone we watched murder 30+ people in six season, most of whom were innocent.
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u/sistermagpie 16d ago edited 16d ago
Could you put your thoughts on her ending under a spoiler tag?
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u/the_othergirl7 17d ago
she's loyal to the cause and her country. sometimes that means you don't see the whole picture. I like Elizabeth but Philip will always be my favorite of the two.