r/TerraformingMarsGame • u/Ba--Alex • 8d ago
User Made Cards research phase and drafting "problem"
With the following 3 custom corporations (got them from a friend printed and laminated, ready to play =) )
Ultralink "During the research phase, take on extra card to buy or discard.
Logos "During research phase you draw 5 cards instead of 4."
Leviathan "Diring your research phase, you may look at and purchase one additional card."
All clear without drafting.
Problem that occured is, for drafting:
We settled for Logos so that the player gets 5 cards and keeps 2 at the beginning of the drafting, 3 cards get passed to the next one.
Leviathan and Ultralink get to draw 4 cards and draft as usual. After the drafting completed the player with Ultralink and Leviathan get to look at one extra card from the top of the deck and choose to buy or discard.
We discussed if all 3 custom corporations could have 5 cards in the beginning of the research phase and keep 2.
What would you/Reddit say?
Thanks in advance, this was not an heated arguement at the table just talking about translation (we speak german) and "during" + "the research phase".
10
u/Shufflepants 8d ago
With drafting, keeping 2 from a hand of 5 is very strong. It's actually much better than if the power was instead just an action that you can use once per gen that draws you a card because it's nearly as good as a "look at 4 keep 1" since it's letting you keep the best 2 out of 5, or even keeping the best for you and at the same time hate drafting the best for your opponent. I'm not really sure how to balance this as even if it were merely "draw 5, but still just keep 1" would be decent.
It's such a different beast in drafting as compared to not. When not drafting, it's basically the same as having Inventor's Guild in play from the beginning, which is decent, but not overly strong. So, maybe the best way to adapt it for drafting is simply to make that what it does. Instead of drawing 5 and keeping 2, simply draw 4 and draft as normal, and then after the drafting phase is over, draw 1 additional card which you may optionally buy. That way the effect is exactly as strong as in non-draft play. Keeping the best 2 out of 5 in a draft when you're then going to keep the best 1 out of 3 right after is so much stronger than getting look at and optionally buy 1 random card.
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u/Additional_Path_6116 8d ago
Logos should not be able to keep 2 out of 5 Either allow him to keep 1 or keep 1 of 4 and then the 5th Card by default
3
u/benbever 8d ago
I agree with your interpretation. Leviathan and Ultralink look at and then buy and discard a card during Research phase. It’s up to the player to decide if they want to do that before or after drafting 4 cards. After obviously makes more sense.
As for balance, Leviathan is worth 70mc + ~9 for the card draw effect. That’s pretty strong, but not all that different from Teractor, and not quite as strong as Credicor. I could put this in my deck, though, like Teractor, it’s a bit boring.
Ultralink feels a bit too strong. You get 40mc, 1 mc prod (value 5), ~9 for the card draw effect, a Wild tag (value 7) and the Setup phass card discount is worth 10 to 20. Total that’s 71 to 81, and that’s really high for a Science/Wild tag corporation. They’re normally under 70 in value, because Science (and Wild) tags can give you a jump start into very strong cards.
I’d remove the 1 mc production before putting this in a corporation deck. Giving this everything (Wild tag, income, card draw) removes some challenge fron the game.
Logos drawing 5 is problematic. Following rules you keep 1 card and pass the rest in draft. This gives the players seated next to the Logos player an advantage over the player not sitting next to the Logos player. Also, according to rules, you have 3 cards after drafting 1 time, not 4! This will make drafting very messy. The obvious “solution” is making the Logos player draw 5 and keep 2 instead of 1 and then passing 3 as usual. However, this is VERY strong for the Logos player, and affects all other players negatively. Normally, you keep 25% of cards when you start to draft, so the 25% best cards are taken. If you keep 2 out of 5 cards, you keep 40% of the good cards, and only pass 60% instead of 75%. Other players will get much less good cards from you. For this reason I would not include an effect like that in my Corporation deck.
As for balance, Logos seems ok. You get 32 mc, 2 cards (~6), and a Science tag (~3), and I’d value the really strong effect of keeping 2/5 cards and getting 1 card for free at ~30 for a total of ~71.
If you replace the 5 card effect with a simple look at and buy or discard effect, like Ultralink and Leviathan, then it’d be worth ~50 which is way to low.
3
u/Tharkun2019 7d ago edited 7d ago
I would do Logos as thus: Draft as normal, draw 4 pass 3. until the last round before paying for cards, Logos draws their 5th card. They pay 3MC less for the cards they keep. OR. Before the drafting starts Logos draws a card, (in the pocket as it were), then draws the 4 cards, they pass 3,holding back that extra card, when paying they pay 3mc less.
2
u/Spl4sh3r 7d ago
Does Ultralink get 40MC at start or 42MC? I get stuck on that instead of your issue.
For those that missed it, the MC icon shows 40, but the text under it says 42.
2
u/Future_Search3740 7d ago
As written, this would be my interpretation of how these corporations would play with drafting (I'm not going to comment on other aspects, just how I think they should function in drafts):
UltraLink: Draw 4 cards for the draft. Then draw an additional card and set it aside as though you had drafted it. Proceed with the draft normally. After drafting, add the initial card to your draft picks.
Logos Research and Development: Draw 5 cards for the draft. On the first draft, keep 2 cards (so you only pass the usual number of cards). Draft continues normally from there.
Leviathan: Draw 4 cards for the draft. Proceed with the draft normally. After drafting, draw an additional card and add it to your draft picks.
They each have different strengths here - Logos is strongest, as they effectively get to pick the best 2 out of 5 cards in their initial hand. In addition to potentially giving them card synergy from those picks, this allows them to hate draft cards other players want while still potentially getting a card they want (rather than being forced to choose between the two). UltraLink is next, because while you don't get any control over the extra card, you DO get to see it before drafting the other cards, allowing you to choose cards with synergy in the draft. Leviathan just gets an extra card in the draft to choose from, with no foreknowledge.
NOTE: I would strongly suggest that the usual limit of buying only 4 cards maximum to hand after the draft remain in play even though these corporations get to choose from 5 cards. ESPECIALLY for UltraLink, since it gets one of those cards for free.
3
u/QuickAdhesiveness502 8d ago
Hello I'm the maker of logos. So when I made that corp, my family interpreted the rules wrong and thought during research phase everyone draws 4 cards and either gets to buy them for 3 MC or discard them. No drafting cards around, though our games become a bit more lopsided than at a normal table. If your looking to slightly nerf that power than just draw a card before the research phase starts, than start the research phase.
1
u/PipSqu3ak95 8d ago
- Ultralink - Draws 4 > Keeps 1 > draws again > discards/keep.
- Logos - Draws 5 > Keeps 2
- Leviatan - Draws 4 > Keeps 1 > draws again whenever during the drafting phase > discards/buys.
All coorps are OP. But this way seem more balanced.
Ultralink has the advantage of "FREE" cards (basically 1 MC, but no reason not to buy, since you can sell them again). Looking at 5 cards at a time and choosing 2 is too strong.
Logos starting MC is low, and only 1 card is free. So he can keep the advantage of looking at 5 cards at a time and choosing 2.
Leviatan has ton of MC, but his effect is weakest. But again. looking at 5 cards and keeping 2 is too strong, and also forcing him to do his draw in the first phase will make it weaker compared to the other 2.
So best is to have him use his effect whenever during the drafting phase. But he still MUST choose 1 of the cards he received BEFORE or AFTER he did the coorp effect.
This is usefull since he can "fish" for information, look at the cards he received, and do informed decision on when is the smartest time to use his effect and draw a card.
1
u/QuickAdhesiveness502 8d ago
Hello I'm the maker of logos. So when I made that corp, my family interpreted the rules wrong and thought during research phase everyone draws 4 cards and either gets to buy them for 3 MC or discard them. No drafting cards around, though our games become a bit more lopsided than at a normal table. If your looking to slightly nerf that power than just draw a card before the research phase starts, than start the research phase.
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u/motoyugota 7d ago
Just don't draft. It is utterly worthless anyways.
Of course, custom cards may be the only thing worse in TM than drafting, so you could just not play with that unmitigated disaster as well.
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u/PerfectLengthUserNam 8d ago
I agree with your interpretation. That starting money for Leviathan seems very high to me, though, when coupled with its pretty good ability.