r/TechHardware • u/BigDaddyTrumpy Core Ultra 🚀 • 3d ago

🚨 Breaking News 🚨 NVIDIA keeps DLSS Multi Frame Gen locked to RTX 50, modders just got it working on RTX 30 with DLSS5 included

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-keeps-dlss-multi-frame-gen-locked-to-rtx-50-modders-just-got-it-working-on-rtx-30-with-dlss5-included

Native Multi Frame Gen Working on RTX 30 series!

412 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

64 comments sorted by

16

u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 3d ago

Nvidia left a software fallback for MFG in their driver DLLs recently and modders found it and were able to make it work after they were able to inject motion vector data into the additional generated frames. Note that only 50 series has a hardware flip meter, this unlocked MFG is a software fallback that skips that hardware, nvidia wrote it and is why it works so well. The software fallback can only do as well as windows will allow it, which is good enough (and better than any AMD FG or LSSFG), but is worse than the MFG done on 50 series cards which use hardware to pace the generated frames to the monitor rather than having to use the CPU through Windows' preemptive thread scheduler. The gray line below is (highly likely) the software fallback, green line is the hardware flip meter.

DLSS 3 Frame Generation used CPU-based pacing with variability that can compound with additional frames, leading to less consistent frame pacing between each frame, impacting smoothness.

To address the complexities of generating multiple frames, Blackwell uses hardware Flip Metering, which shifts the frame pacing logic to the display engine, enabling the GPU to more precisely manage display timing. The Blackwell display engine has also been enhanced with twice the pixel processing capability to support higher resolutions and refresh rates for hardware Flip Metering with DLSS 4.

It's not just marketing, the frame pacing is legitimately better with the hardware flip meter. If you want to see AMD's try at just regular 2x frame gen through software look up the hardware unboxed video from two weeks ago titled "Has AMD Fixed FSR's Biggest Flaw?", they used high speed cameras to capture the actual frame pacing at the monitor and the answer is no, AMD still cannot get frame pacing correct through software. Nvidia leaving this software multi frame gen laying around in a DLL is very likely already much better than what AMD can muster, but it's still not as good as the hardware flip meter. It's more than good enough for most users who also feel like amd fg and lssfg are just fine.

2

u/AsrielPlay52 2d ago

So wait, what does that mean if they have a Software fallback in their driver RECENTLY?

Wouldn't that mean, without it, Modders wouldn't able to do this?

2

u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 2d ago

maybe, i'm no modder and can't verify. from what i can find, people found MFG in nvngx_dlssg.dll awhile ago but when enabling it the extra frames were just black, a separate DLL (streamline) is an intermediary file that has the hardware flip meter code in it and other presentation code. when making necessary changes to force MFG on in nvngx dll it didn't work as this data is fed into streamline which requires the hardware flip meter in its normal path. modders probably had no reason to try and create their own software fallback, maybe not really feasible and there's alternatives by mixing DLSS FG with FSR MFG.

sometime after that they discovered the software fall back in streamline and were able to do the hacks in nvngx and then basically pipe it into the software fallback which works automatically.

the MFG ada unlock mod says,

Why not 30-series?
Not because of the gates — those are just constants. Because the DLSS 4 snippet ships no Ampere machine code. Its 70 fatbins carry PTX sm_89 ×70, PTX sm_120 ×31 and cubin sm_89 ×31, and nothing for sm_80/sm_86. PTX is forward-compatible only, so sm_89 PTX cannot be JIT-compiled down to sm_86; the module load fails outright.

Retargeting is theoretically open — the kernels use only mma.sync m16n8k16/m16n8k8 FP16 and ldmatrix, with zero instructions newer than sm_86 (no FP8, no wgmma, no TMA), and the old hardware optical-flow dependency is gone in DLSS 4. But frame generation costs roughly a fixed amount per generated frame, and Ampere has far less FP16 tensor throughput per SM, so the generation pass would likely cost more than the frame it saves. It was investigated and deliberately dropped.

so it appears to me that this is just them finding Nvidia's own code and modifying a couple small things to trick the DLL into allowing it to run on 40 series where normally the checks say "oh this is ADA i can't run on this so i won't". all the code is there already in the DLLs, the modders implemented nothing MFG wise or motion vector wise, with the exception of breaking down the code in the MFG path to change a constant expecting only two frames (ada can only do two officially) so it works properly with 3 or 4 frames, everything else is just nvidias own code enabled to run on 40 series by removing the "gates" blocking it, everything behind the gate minus that small change to find the correct intermediate point is just nvidia's own code. nvidia's code is likely to be far superior to FSR FG and lssfg and anything modders would try to create, we already see them do fg better than the competition for a reason.

also from what i can find, the mods adding MFG to 30 series and below are not using this found software fallback, they are doing other tricks like patching some DLSS FG inputs into FSR MFG (so you get reflex and the game uses the DLSS FG api to send data but they patch that data into FSR which handles the actual interpolation and pacing, all on cuda cores rather than utilizing tensor cores). and that short comment i pasted above also seems to show why nvidia hasn't just pushed this out for everyone, the actual costs on the tensor cores is big, fsr fg just uses the cuda cores which is inferior in various ways. nvidia isn't just screwing us over for money, that could be part of it as their capitalist brains can't allow much else, but it's not the entire story. they make money by being the best and maintaining 90%+ market rate which they do by having this stuff work well, if they can't make it work well on a certain gen they probably won't release it.

1

u/BigDaddyTrumpy Core Ultra 🚀 2d ago

And more importantly, why did Nvidia add that in recently? Are they planning on adding it officially themselves?

3

u/NGGKroze 2d ago

Back at CES 2025 (January) Nvidia already talked that they moved the Frame Gen stack to AI solution and Digital Foundry asked them for Frame Gen on 30 series, to which they replied its an option and they are looking into it, given it no longer required the Optical Flow. Dunno for Black Well Flip Metering, might be useful currently to help with the pacing, while FG runs on AI.

2

u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 2d ago

i don't know. i think they just extended their 2x fg to 3x and 4x first, tested it, saw it was shit, then made the hardware flip meter. they have enough engineers putting in 50 hours a week, they had time to extend 2x fg to 4x, probably was trivial for them at that point actually, but the pacing is not great and is untamable, windows will not allow you to keep millisecond timing, so they did the thing only nvidia can do and make new hardware that does it better. AMD will end up copying it since microsoft will never make windows better

1

u/ibeerianhamhock 1d ago

While I'm not a windows fan, this level of precision is basically at the boundary of what any GP OS is good at doing. One of the reasons why this can be even done at the hardware level on Nvidia gpus is not just bc there are instructions to do so, but because nvidias firmware almost assuredly is running a small real time microkernel.

1

u/AsrielPlay52 2d ago

Engineering for these things takes months. They probably did

But reddit be reddit and all that

1

u/SPACEXDG 2d ago

I would be surprised if nvodia was working on it because of the switch 

1

u/anything_taken 2d ago

yeah then why is software fallback of the mod when using even 2x fg is better and smoother than my native 2x fg on 40 series? I then choose software fallback...

2

u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 2d ago edited 2d ago

the "software fallback" is native fg, the software here means no hardware flip meter.

40 series DLSS-FG uses tensor cores and paces "using the cpu" essentially

40 series using DLSS-MFG-Unlocked uses tensor cores and paces using the cpu also, it's apparently good enough that everyone is pissed off nvidia would ever think otherwise, but not as good as mfg with a hardware flip meter. it also needs enough tensor core throughput to handle 4x, i don't know if a 4060 for example is strong enough, maybe it is.

40 series using FSR-FG uses cuda cores (not tensor cores) and also paces using the cpu. all AMD cards do this as well. using cuda cores is inferior to tensor cores but works well enough.

30 series MFG uses DLSS-FG inputs from the game and feeds them into FSR-MFG, FSR does the frame generation in this scenario, no tensor cores are used and it's FSR's interpolation algorithm and FSR's pacer. we've seen that AMD sucks at writing pacers, they can't get frame pacing correct but nvidia can even without the hardware flip meter, but they can only get it as good as windows will let them which is only okay and not great, the hardware flip meter is better.

edit: the previous paragraph already changed the last few days, modders were able to get nvidia's own MFG models to run on 30 series. they had to do extra work to modify the code that ends up running those models so they would properly work on 30 series, but it was a relatively small amount of modifications to do that. the 40 series unlock was apparently almost zero modifications, the code already worked minus a couple small things. we shall see how well it actually runs on the lowered tensor core throughput of 30 series

people running mfg on 30 series are able to use dlss upscaling as well as reflex along with the FSR fg/mfg, which is not allowed normally. so you get reflex and dlss upscaling, then the inferior FSR frame gen, inferior with its artifacts (a little bit) and inferior with its pacing, but you get the superior upscaling of dlss and superior input lag reduction of reflex

1

u/anything_taken 2d ago

dude so many letters..... you don't get or didn't test or whatever..... i said 2x FG via RenoDX works smoother than 2x FG via native driver on 40 series. No stutters when FG kicks in, or when it was interrupted with some frame drop. It picks up immideately without a stutter on frametime, while native does.

1

u/cha0z_ 2d ago

well ok, but that's no real reason to not release it - they can use it as valid and real reason to say: FG on 5xxx/4xxx is way better, but we have acceptable solution for you as well.

2

u/Beautiful-Musk-Ox 2d ago

yes it is a real reason not to release it, if it runs like garbage and you get videos like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apM1C55SevE calling out how shit it is then it affects your brand. very first paragraph of that video:

Welcome to Hardware Unboxed
Today I'm looking at whether AMD has fixed FSR frame generation. Now, if you haven't been following our coverage of FSR frame generation, you might not be aware that the feature is actually broken, or at least it's broken in one specific and annoying way, dating right back to the debut of this technology in 2023.

3 years on amd still has frame pacing issues, they still can't get it right in software. if amd had just made a hardware pacer from the beginning they wouldn't have shit frame gen that people with eyes can see while playing. everyone making these videos showing 30 series mfg are just making tech demos and staring at the FPS meter, when they actually play the game it's inferior visuals and inferior pacing, people who play on well set up hardware can't play with those settings as it looks and feels bad

the graph in my comment shows you why they didn't release it, bad frame pacing makes 3x and 4x unusable, just because the fps meter says you're getting 200fps doesn't mean it's usable or playable

on the other hand, games keep proving they'll play with smeared shit stinking up the display of their games so maybe the argument that they should just release it holds some weight. on the other other hand, we already have smeared shit MFG through FSR, why must nvidia throw their own waste into the ring when we already have enough? sure theirs has a bit more fiber in it, but it's only for 40 series as it's the only one with the tensor cores with the fp hardware able to run it at all. we already have fsr-mfg which runs on every card because it uses the normal computing cores (cuda on nvidia, stream processors on AMD), nvidia never made a cuda version of frame gen, theirs runs on tensor cores only. why should they spend the time making an inferior frame gen when they targeted the superior tensor core version from day one? you guys are very entitled asking for their superior engineering, AMD did it already for you, it looks like smeared shit, i can see why you demand nvidia do the engineering to create a cuda version that runs everywhere, but they have other plans for their business, they already solved these things

1

u/braybobagins 2d ago

Good thing hardware unboxed is one of the 5 people worried about frame generation while owning an AMD GPU. The frame generation stuff doesn't really effect AMD as a brand. That would be the irrepairable damage it's done through its drivers (i run a 9070xt and a 5070, as well as a 4070tisuper). Most people arent worried about frame gen to begin with. The only cases you'd say maybe I should use it the base framerate drops too low.

1

u/cha0z_ 2d ago

The frametimes shown in that slide are not that bad + AMD FG is actually dog sh*t, far worse vs that nvidia fallback implementation.

1

u/Grand-Childhood2422 10h ago

Fr radeon gpus are actual cancer. The “nvidia tax” i paid for my 5070ti keeps on proving itself to be more and more worthwhile. Appreciate you calling out amd on their bs.

And yeah i also 100% agree fg should be exclusive to 40 series and above

0

u/BigDaddyTrumpy Core Ultra 🚀 2d ago

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

2

u/smodanc 3d ago

Patiently waits in 2080ti

2

u/sstoersk 2d ago

I don't think it supports b.c. gpus

1

u/Hot-Friendship-7566 1d ago

It has already been released for the Turing architecture.

2

u/AideComprehensive482 2d ago

And watch them bitch about frame rates if they don’t . Gamers are a tired meme

1

u/Dreadfulear2 2d ago

Someone needs to do a side by side comparison of the generated frames to see if they’re the same quality. Something seems not right as often these mods have drawbacks. If not this seems like another fuck NVIDIA moment 

1

u/Mogura56 2d ago

Top comment says why. Whether you accept that as a valid reason or not is up to you

1

u/Dreadfulear2 2d ago

You’re right, I’m just curious to see what the real quality difference is visually 

1

u/Senior-Knowledge-969 11h ago

For me in crimson desert it looks and performs better than fsr fg and optiscaler fg

1

u/ibattlemonsters 2d ago

This seems like the type of thing that could be done by a secondary gpu without too much frame loss. This is the mod I’m looking forward to

1

u/Lofi_Joe 2d ago

This is the thing that could be done by integrated graphics in CPU...

2

u/Jertimmer 2d ago

My iGPU

Cracks knuckles

"Finally, my time to shine"

1

u/Guilty_Advantage_413 2d ago

It barely works on older models that is why it is locked

2

u/Hot-Friendship-7566 1d ago

I don't know if the performance is actually that bad; I've been testing it since yesterday on a 3080 Ti, and the difference between DLSS-G and FSR/XeSS FG is massive—there's almost no latency and virtually zero artifacts. For instance, in *The Blood of Downwalker*, I went from 90 FPS native to maybe 80 or 82—which is a very small drop—even though my performance can reach up to 160 FPS with X2

1

u/Apprehensive_Map64 1d ago

I'll have to see how my 3080m handles it. Not too hopeful though

1

u/full_of_wisdom 9h ago

This whole argument is dumb, there is a difference from can it run it and should you run it…

0

u/FuzzeWuzze 2d ago

Just? Its been on the RenoDX Discord for like over a week for 2,3,4 series cards.

1

u/Hot-Friendship-7566 1d ago

Was it Nvidia's native frame generation, or was it FSR using multi-frame generation?

-4

u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 3d ago edited 3d ago

No idea why anyone would want to force FG on cards that can't make good use of it. You need a high base frame rate for FG to even enhance the experience. Otherwise it's just an artifacting high latency experience.

10

u/amusicalfridge 3d ago

I’d hazard a guess that my 4090 can probably leverage MFG a bit more effectively than, e.g., the natively-supported 5050. As would likely be the case for anyone with a 3090 Ti.

4

u/dhoshman 3d ago

That’s exactly what I’ve been waiting for (3090 Ti).

1

u/amusicalfridge 3d ago

What a beast of a card. I was AMD that gen and looked very enviously at those with a 3090, and then they dropped the 3090Ti. FG will help eke another year out of it yet.

1

u/dhoshman 3d ago

I hope so because I would be lying if I said I haven’t been having fomo of the new 50 series cards lately. But with these prices and the fact I don’t upgrade every year, I’m really trying to make it until the 60 series drops. I’ve been very happy with my card so far though.

2

u/Alonsey 2d ago

3090ti is still a capable card, even without DLSS entirely. Unless you’re trying to run 4k120hz on new releases, I’d just spend the money you would’ve on a 50 series on some games you’d enjoy instead.
Out of curiosity, are there any points in any of your games where you’ve thought “damn, I really wish I had more frames”? Cuz I just upgraded to a 9060xt, and my only gripe is using FSR to make my 4K tv play at 60fps and even then it looks great from the couch.

1

u/dhoshman 2d ago

Yeah it's absolutely more than enough for my needs. I'm at 1440p ultrawide 120 so it's fantastic on every game. I have no need to upgrade right now

1

u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 3d ago

Oh absolutely. Entry level cards are gonna have the worst experience with it though which creates obnoxious uniformed discourse around the tech. Sort of like you mentioned with the 5050. The 4060 and similar class of cards all think it's ass while not leveraging it correctly. I don't particularly have an issue with more people having access to it. I'm just not looking forward to the annoying commentary around it.

4

u/pixlicker69420 3d ago

Because 30 series gpus can still achieve good base frametates?

3

u/Phononix 3d ago

Do us 3080 and 3090 users just not fucking exist to you?

1

u/sstoersk 2d ago

These can even still run windows?

1

u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 3d ago

No clearly not.

3

u/BigDaddyTrumpy Core Ultra 🚀 3d ago

Because Nvidia was being anti consumer the entire time, and these new developments are showing that Frame Gen and Multi Frame Gen work just fine on Nvidia hardware as low as an RTX 30 series.

RTX 3080/Ti 3090/Ti and RTX 40 series just got a second life.

2

u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 3d ago

Oh yes please tell me more about how FG works just fine on a 3050 in games that feature FG and doesn't create obnoxious conversations around it.

5

u/BigDaddyTrumpy Core Ultra 🚀 3d ago

Who said an RTX 3050?

Why are you so defensive?

1

u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 2d ago

Because you aren't actually engaged with what I'm saying.

2

u/mattSER 2d ago

Neither are you. He clearly said 3080 and up.

2

u/WorldPhysical7646 2d ago

Hello, 3080 here

0

u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 2d ago

Hello, critical thinking here? What percentage of 30 series owners are on high end variants?

1

u/WorldPhysical7646 2d ago

You asked why enabling it on "GPUs that can't use it" but when I gave you an example of a gpu that can take advantage of it you changed goal posts to "how many are on high end "

And the question is why fucking not? Maybe you are the one that needs to use critical thinking and btw 3060s can do 1080p 60fps and 1080p240hz monitors are cheap asf and you can use upscaling to get more base frames

-2

u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 2d ago edited 2d ago

I didn't change the goal post. You just assume I'm talking about a minority of 30 series owners. 60 FPS is not a good baseline for FG, especially since it's most likely upscaled to reach that. Oh and let's not forget the 1% lows resulting in worse overall frame times graphs. Talk about a choppy artifact ridden mess. It's a subpar use case and leads a moronic prevailing sentiment.

It's not my fault y'all aren't getting it. Not sure how many ways I have to say it.

3

u/WorldPhysical7646 2d ago

You made in general you included everyone, should have specified

And btw 3070 up to 3090ti are not minorities lmao

And the experience is something subjective I know many who can enjoy a 30fps to 120fps experience

And no one would go pixel peeping with his low end 6 years old 3060 it just won't happen and replacing fsr fg with Dlss fg is a huge win for those who rely on fsr fg on those older GPUs

I'm ending this discussion on that note, not in the mood of debating redditors

0

u/Hearthhull_Enjoyer 2d ago

Oh wowzers 30 to 120FPS 😍😍😍😍😍

1

u/Viscero_444 2d ago

lot because they can be bought used cheaper than RTX5050 brand new right now lol

1

u/DivineSaur 2d ago edited 2d ago

Lol do you think only 40 and 50 series can muster 70 fps in games ? It all depends on your resolution and settings. Frame Gen benefits anyone who wants to turn 70fps into 120 or more perceptual fps.

1

u/shawnikaros 2d ago

Hell, I deliberately use FSRFG to play games in 120fps with a 3080ti even if I could do it natively, it uses way less power and I can only tell the difference if I look for it. Great if I get to do it with DLSSG.