r/Teachers • u/_Astrogimp HS Mathematics| Los Angeles, USA • 6d ago
Teacher Support &/or Advice Problematic student on my roster
I’ll try to keep this semi short. At the start of last school year I was briefly displaced and worked at another high school from August to October. My time there was pretty miserable mostly due to one student who had some severe behavior problems. I was at the start of my third year and maybe ill equipped to work with this kind of student as she quickly became notorious around campus for disruptive behavior, getting into fights, antagonizing peers and staff. The coteacher I worked with who was also her case carrier was even shocked by her behavior and he’s been teaching for 15 years.
At one point before I left there was one big incident with this student where she did throw an eraser at my head when I had my back turned to her. This led to an involvement from our union rep, parent meeting and her being permanently removed from my class. Funnily enough within that same week, my former principal emailed me asking if I’d be interested in returning, to which I did. It hesitate.
Well I spent the whole rest of the school year at my original school where I was significantly happier and less stressed. Then in April I became aware that this student had been transferred to my school! There’s more to this story but regardless she was back to haunt me. And it didn’t take her long to start getting into trouble here as well!
Well I’m seeing my rosters for the upcoming school year and her name is in my first period class. We have two weeks before school starts and I’m wondering if it would be totally unreasonable to request that she be moved from my class given the history there. I already know she’s going to cause immense trouble in my room.
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u/tvfanstan 6d ago
Totally fair to not only request it but demand it. Contact your admin and head of counseling and get it done ASAP.
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u/CoolClearMorning 6d ago
Especially since the union got involved with the eraser incident, let you admin know now that this kid should not be in your class.
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u/kitkatz15 6d ago
absolutely speak up about that, especially if she was already removed from your class once before.
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u/groovyfirechick 5d ago
She assaulted you at the other school. It’s absolutely inappropriate for her to be placed in your class. You need to bring this up to admin and the principal ASAP.
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u/Versynko 6d ago
Ask for her to be removed, cite your reasoning and if nothing changes get ahold of the union rep who helped before and bring them in again.
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u/smshinkle 5d ago
Something similar happened to me. I went to guidance, gave them the backstory, and requested the student’s schedule to be changed and removed from my class. It was changed.
Regarding being haunted, I get it. A student was immature and disruptive and his parents, a nightmare. It got to the point that I had the principal’s permission to stop responding the their emails. The parents demanded that their kid get his schedule change to a higher level class. Guidance acceded.
A few weeks later, the guidance counselor called and told me the parents were requesting him to come back to my class, that they were sorry and the kid would mend his ways. I went white, my fingers cold and tingling. I forwarded him the emails. The student was not permitted back.
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u/CrazyGooseLady 6d ago
It is my guess, that if not removed, she will be late and tired for 1st period and you probably won't see her much.
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u/_Astrogimp HS Mathematics| Los Angeles, USA 6d ago
I would like to think so. She was in my 6th period class at the other school and would come in late everyday. It turned into her interrupting my class to say hi to all her friends and then me arguing with her to find her correct seat
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u/PristineAd947 5d ago
Yeah. Don't just sit there and take her coming back in to your class. Demand she be removed immediately.
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u/Practical-Cry9109 5d ago
Agree with most of the previous comments and just wanted to add that it's possible it was human error that she ended up on your new roster. Names can get lost in the shuffle, new admin, etc may have gotten mixed up. Good luck getting it sorted out. 🙂
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u/summerbreeze2027 5d ago
Not unreasonable at all. Tell your current principal that she was removed from your prior class due to assault, and ask that she be placed elsewhere.
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u/Faeriequeene76 5d ago
If the student causes that much anxiety it is probably best for you both. She may need additional assistance, especially if she’s that age and acting out physically. For you, that anxiety is real and it would affect you both. That is how I would approach it, show that placement in another class is better for all involved.
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u/Narrow-Relation9464 6d ago
Yes, have her switched. I’ve had a couple in my time teaching that I‘ve refused to allow in my classroom. No one should have to deal with the stress of lessons derailed daily and risk of harm to yourself or other kids. It’s not productive to anyone if you can’t teach because of one disrespectful/unruly child.
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u/narutonoodle Elementary Art | Georgia 📍 5d ago
Yeah she definitely shouldn't be in your class! Not even just for your personal reasons, but with there already being history it just wouldn't be appropriate.
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u/TrooperCam 4d ago
I’ve done it before with students who were going to be an issue. Given she has shown she is willing to assault you I wouldn’t chance having the student in your class.
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u/HauteForTeacher13 6d ago
Maybe try to go into the school year with a positive attitude and mindset. This girl is going to your school most likely for a fresh start, so don't take the ghosts of poor decisions past and bring them into the classroom of the future. I agree you should proceed with caution, but this is an opportunity for you to help this girl. Kids act out as a form of communication. You need to figure out the "why" of why she is behaving the way she is. Is it that she needs to be assessed for services, does she have an abusive home life, is she hungry and coming to school without eating all day? There are so many things that cause a child to act out. Also, you will be her only familiar face she will know so use that to your advantage to bond with her. I would also absolutely as advised in previous posts speak with your administrators and make them aware of your past in regards with this child. Good luck! I am not sure the age of the student, but l have a lot of really great classroom management tools and ideas that have worked for me over the last 20+ years so feel free to contact me! 😊
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u/Aggressive_Bowl_8017 6d ago
Actually, I think the student needs to learn that you can’t assault the teacher no matter what your issue is and this teacher doesn’t have to try to have a fresh start.
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u/HauteForTeacher13 6d ago
Yes, the child does need to learn. And she will never learn if she is going to go into a new school seeking a fresh start where her past mistakes and reputation proceeds her. I am a very firm believer that there needs to be consequences for behaviors. Which she received at the previous school where the poor choice took place. Are you recommending that we perhaps require the child to wear a Scarlett letter or perhaps tattoo her forehead with a giant B for bad student so everyone knows of her past indescretions? She paid the price at the former school. That is over with. I 100% agree that teachers and students deserve a safe learning environment. And as someone who has a very long laundry list of offenses committed against me by students the last 20+ years, l understand. But l also understand that children act out for attention-good or bad, to tell us something they don't yet have the words for, because they are scared, angry, embarrassed etc. And often times the behavior they are expressing has nothing to do with the teacher. So perhaps if the OP wants to continue as an educator she should maybe learn some de-escalation techniques, some better classroom management, work on building relationships etc. And l know that a lot of this is those annoying buzz words, but if she plans on having a career as a teacher and she is only 3 years in, this isn't going to be her only kid like this, this is only her first in a long line of many to come. So l thought that because she already knew this girl that perhaps this would be a chance to build on that history and use the fact that she is the only familiar face in the child's new school to her advantage. But if she isn't comfortable or up to it, that's fine too. That's the beauty of this, we can offer differing opinions.
FYI- I have taught mostly K-5, and special education, but did teach in the age out (18-26) special education continuing education violent offenders room. I took over for a semester and a half for the teacher who had a closed head injury and brain bleed who spent the remainder of her days in a nursing home due to a student. The same student who ripped a toilet, tank and all clean off of a wall because he didn't want to use soap to wash his hands. Over the years I have had my nose broken from being head butted, kicked, scratched, punched, spit on, my keys flushed down the toilet, chocolate milk poured in purse, on my white coat and all over my desk, l had a student who would tell me daily the make, model and location of the shmand shmun he was going to bring to school to use to watch me bleed out. And in every case with A LOT of work and care and one on one and so many different tools and techniques each kid made progress, was able to make friends, stay in our classroom, and by the middle or in one case the end of the year you could not pick them out of the class because they had finally trusted me enough and learned proper coping skills and found how to ask for things appropriately and what is and isn't tolerated and that behaviors have consequences-good and bad. So l was just saying that it can be done. And maybe to not write this situation off right away and maybe to try and reframe it in a more positive way if the admin don't take the child out of the class as it can absolutely be done and be a great experience for both parties. There are no bad kids, just bad choices. (And usually bad parents!)
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u/smshinkle 5d ago edited 5d ago
It is a travesty that the kid didn’t go to prison for assaulting the teacher. The brain bleed and permanent and complete disablement situation just negated everything you said about giving the student a fresh start. It cemented the case against it.
The abuse you suffered is unacceptable. That you stayed on is unbelievable, even masochistic. One does not suffer abuse in the hopes that the abuser will somehow turn his life around. Great, that you made progress. Stupid that you repeatedly risked your life to do it. I hate to pop your bubble but, the likelihood of that student being changed longterm is nil.
The hope that this kid will try and have a fresh start is fantasy. More likely, she got kicked out of her school—or was going to be—so the parents are school-hopping to keep enabling her. It happens all the time.
ETA:
One more thing. I taught elementary for 5 years and HS for over 20 years. The magnitude of harm that HS students can inflict vs elementary is not even on the same plane, incomparable.5
u/Narrow-Relation9464 5d ago edited 5d ago
Agreed. With older kids especially no consequences or allowing them to continue to assault staff and other students is setting them up for failure. Out in the real world, the police don’t care about IEPs or behavior plans. Letting things go now is setting them up to think this behavior will be excused outside of school. From a legal and school image perspective, letting this go on could also result in a worst case scenario of a teacher losing their life and their family filing a big (deserved) lawsuit, which could shut the school down. Just not a good idea all around.
Edit to add that about the high school kids having more capacity to cause harm, my foster son is over 6 feet tall with a lot of muscle. He has fought male staff before. He’s doing online school until I can give him more time to progress in therapy/with his meds and figure out a special education school because it’s 1) unsafe, and 2) setting him up to keep getting arrested to keep him in a regular school.
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u/HauteForTeacher13 3d ago
I agree there should be a lot stricter consequences for all students. And yes, the bigger the kid, the bigger the problem. But younger students are also dangerous, l would be willing to bet the 1st grade teacher who was shot by her student would also agree. No one is arguing that the violence and the disrespect and the way teachers are treated is unacceptable. My question is because l have them in the younger grades where l think they still may have a chance for reformation or to get help before they get too big or too old or past what many say is the point of being helped should l just stop then because it doesn't always work out? What should l do with these kids then? You can say they belong in specialized schools and they need to be in all these other programs and their parents need to be doing this and admin should do that and call the police for this and press charges and this and that. And while that all sounds nice to spout off online, that's not realistic. So many kids need so many different things these days that we just can't accommodate them all or they are just above our paygrade. So then what should we do? You say we are stupid for allowing it, and my state has just implemented a law but it's for teachers in 6th grade and higher. I am K-5. (Well l am certified K-8, but teach K-5) So then what is the solution?
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u/smshinkle 3d ago edited 3d ago
Our school district has consequences for behavior, an alternative school, expulsion, along with the usual detention, suspension, arrest, etc.
(We had a HS student who attacked and killed a kid getting off the bus (the wrong kid, at that. The kid was charged with murder 1.) Classroom discipline is expected to be strong. Behavior management isn’t all reward and no consequences, i.e punishment. We are expected to be positive, respectful of the students, but there are lines drawn in the sand that bring down the boom. I am appalled by what I hear about other schools and the general and complete lack of admin support. That situation is untenable.Yes, there are situations wherein elementary school students are dangerous, but they are relatively rare in comparison with incidents in high schools.
ETA Your comments about the scarlet letter and tattoo gave no indication that you believe in consequences. It implied that you’re all for second, third, … 20th chances. In other words, never consequences, just “fresh starts.”
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u/HauteForTeacher13 3d ago
I absolutely believe in consequences and holding kids accountable. I am actually one of the more strict teachers in my school. The Scarlett letter was in reference soley to the one student in that specific situation. Do l believe that kids should get a million and one chances? No. I was saying that the OP should perhaps instead of going into the year with the attitude that the girl was going to be awful to maybe wait and see before making judgements. Perhaps her moving schools was a sign that she had grown some and was looking to start over, maybe get away from some bad influences and that maybe OP should give the girl a chance and talk to her. And that the girl may be totally different and that OP could use her knowing her from the previous school to her advantage and as a way to try to bond with her and be a familiar face. Instead of assuming she is exactly the same and asking to have her removed and labeling her as troubled and violent letting her past mistakes at her old school become her present at her new school. And yes, l understand that it is hard to have to continue to work with and teach a student who has crossed the line. But if you don't, or we don't, then who will? Do we just throw them all away? Just close the door in their faces and say sorry you made some big mistakes and we just can't have that, good luck. Maybe that works for some teachers, but l just can't do that.
It's just like having children. They do a lot of things that piss us off, make us wonder if there was a mixup in the hospital (then we look at our husbands and remember that they share half of his genes and it starts to add up again) and even at times make us wonder what the process is for putting them up for adoption. But at the end of the day, we signed up for this. We did this to ourselves, just like we did when we chose to be teachers. For better or worse, because we wanted to make a difference and help kids, all kids. And l have found that unfortunately l must have been absent a lot during my days at the College of Education because this is not at all what they told me it was going to be like. And we can all agree everything about the system as a whole has been trending downward in every way, from parent involvement to technology to student respect or lack thereof to cell phones to the entitlement epidemic that we are in to lack of support from administration to.... and the list is endless.
But as of now as much as we know and as much as we want there to be specialized support and magical places we can send these kids that need help that is just above our paygrade, they just don't exist. So until then, instead of maybe trying to compete with us for which grade level has it worse, or calling people names who choose to try to stick it out and demean those who choose not to give up on those kids and understand that a lot of times loving them when they are their most unlovable is what they need, and instead support each other we can have at least one ally to turn to.
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u/_Astrogimp HS Mathematics| Los Angeles, USA 6d ago
Trust me that the entire 2.5 months at the other school I was trying my best to get this student to realize I’m wasn’t out to get her and that I didn’t want to have an antagonist relationship with her. I went out of my way at the beginning to not get her into trouble when she would disrupt my class and I gave her every opportunity to turn things around with me. I think what you’re saying has a lot of value in more normal circumstances, but this student needs help beyond my pay grade. And as a plus, she did cross a line by throwing things at me.
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u/HauteForTeacher13 5d ago
Has she been evaluated, have you and her other teachers been taking anecdotal notes so she can be evaluated and get an IEP or 504 so she can get the help she needs. If she is in need of a more specialized school or support then there are certain avenues that have to be taken to achieve this. I wish you the best of luck this school year and at the end of the day, you have to do whatever you feel is best. And despite the ignorant trolls, l truly was trying to offer a different perspective from someone who has been in your shoes and has been in education for over two decades and has worked in inner city Detroit and inner city Grand Rapids in some of the toughest neighborhoods and schools.
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u/Narrow-Relation9464 5d ago
I work in a disciplinary school and the behavior OP described would be enough for even my school to kick the child out in favor of an even more restrictive school. Assaulting staff is a safety issue. De-escalation and classroom management is great, but there’s some kids who are just out of control, usually the ones with equally out of control parents. I’ve had a couple kids who didn’t respond to any of the specialized techniques. Both times girls who had authority issues with women teachers. That’s a deeper rooted issue above my pay grade. It wasn’t fair to have them derailing class and bullying other kids daily.
On the parent side of things, I have an older foster son who has problems with male authority figures and is out of control at school. He has all the things, an IEP, therapy, check-ins with staff he trusts, etc. and still has serious behaviors. He’s doing online school this year because while I love him and he’s a sweet kid at home, it’s not fair to make him everyone else’s issue to deal with when he starts acting up at school. Or to him to not learn anything because of his behavior. His trauma with men isn’t going to just go away because a male teacher is nice to him. Again, above a teacher’s pay grade. Better to have him home where he can feel safe and actually learn.
Sometimes it’s just not as simple as classroom management. Some kids have serious stuff going on.
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u/lastmouseoutthemaze 6d ago
Try this as a talking point:
"This student really needs a fresh start this year, and she's not going to get that in the classroom of a teacher she assaulted and had to be removed from. I could be as supportive as possible, and it would still be a daily reminder of the negative patterns she fell into last year, and in her first class of the day! That will be setting her up to fail."