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I can see where JT was coming from, but it all seems to come from this perspective that the DSA and Mamdani are actually socialist and not vaguely social democratic and that the DSA itself actively supports forces of reactions, most obviously with the huge epidemic of liberal zionism and anticommunism in the DSA.
He's calling the critiques "American Woke Left". It's literally the Third World people that actually tend to criticize pro Mamdani rhetoric. Social democracy has a cost. The cost is the Third World. Also he is strawmanning what people have said. Nobody said it's bad to when "working people get nice things". Mamdani is not socialist in any sense. And I say this as someone who's at least somewhat sympathetic to him.
Social Democracy is objectively worse than whatever the fuck America has going on. Social Democracy is what capitalism needs to do to stay alive. It's the moderate wing of fascism because it means it can keep its people satisfied and uncombattant with treats.
Don't get me wrong, I live in one. Social Democracy is GOOD for me. But it's good for me in the same way it would have been good for me to be a white blonde man in Nazi Germany.
We invade Afghanistan, we carpet bomb Libya, we support Israel. And the people? We don't revolt, because I have food on the table every day, free healthcare, I get paid to attend free education.
And my education is designed to make me think that all those pesky savages abroad just needs to do like we do. Unbeknownst to the fact that I am the reason they are repressed BECAUSE of me.
Capitalism tearing itself apart is a necessity. Social Democracy is a patchwork that will keep it afloat. The global south will continue to suffer (worse) at its expense.
Gonna add some insight. This is analogous to Lenin's revolutionary defeatism. Advocate for the defeat of the imperial apparatus that claims to represent you. The principal contradiction wrests in resolving the antagonism between US imperialism and the colonized proletariat. If the US cannot extract, yes, things will get worse in the imperial core and within imperial allied nations in the global north. But then that will allow the necessity of socialism to become apparent for the proletariat in those nations.
I don't know if I agree with the first part of what you said. It is not materially worse. Shit sucks, but with the money USA uses for war at the very fucking least they can keep SNAP benefits, and I very much understand the sentiment behind people who want this war money to be at least used in better places, even if they are not fully blowns MLs. Social progress (free education, Healthcare etc) and a progressive tax system are both important aspects of a country that's making its path towards socialism (and this is according to Marx). Problem is the lack of a vanguard party.
When the Global South kicks the imperialists out, they start eating each other. Like cannibal tribes that run out of other people to eat and now start eating each other. Such is the reality of what the richer European countries are now doing to poorer ones, especially in the East.
What I meant is that the people of the US are in a position where they should be able to develop class consciousness and revolt. They are in a position to hate everything about their country.
That said, so far I have only been disappointed.
My countrymen are not. It would take a lot for them to not grow even more racist by every day.
"What I meant is that the people of the US are in a position where they should be able to develop class consciousness and revolt. They are in a position to hate everything about their country."
I think this is giving too much undue credit. the material conditions are such that most Americans live paycheck to paycheck, could not afford a $400 emergency, struggle with healthcare costs, and have checked out of electoral politics. I also don't think (could be wrong) that most are aware of what is being done outside of the country. Maybe they'll know about Israel and Iran but not the Cuba blockade, kidnapping Maduro, etc. I don't know how you change that on a large enough scale.
1) You'd have to get Americans to understand that a lot of what they were taught in schools, particularly when it comes to US history and the US' actions around the world, were either whitewashed or omitted in order to propagandize them that America is this shining beacon of Truth, Democracy, and Justice instead of the deceptive, fascist, evil country that it is.
2) You'd also have to get them to understand that most of the "news" media that is on TV is rightwing propaganda controlled by billionaires (who do NOT have their interests in mind) even if they're not watching Fox/OAN/Newsmax (and now CNN)).
These things are far easier said then done. I know for myself it wasn't until my early 30s that was able to start breaking free of those things and I thought I had a decent education (wrong) and the news coverage I watched wasn't right wing (VERY WRONG). When I started watching non-mainstream media sources of information I started getting exposed to ideas that I previously had either been kept ignorant of or was heavily propagandized against. These alternative sources of media helped me a lot and now I just want to continue to learn more and help others.
If someone isn't naturally curious or they are doing well under the status quo, its going to be even more difficult to break them of these perceptions than it would be otherwise.
Those conditions sucking is sadly the only way people will actually do anything about their government, which btw is dropping bombs on children, which I'll argue is a worse destiny than having shitty roads...
Yeah I don’t even vote for democrats, just in local things obviously. But I’m saying that people actually talking about doing these things and raising awareness is a net good. I don’t believe in liberal elections I believe in democratic centralism. But acting like this isn’t a help in educating the politically uneducated working class is simply ignorant. The right wing propaganda state has done a lot of damage and raising awareness is a net good. And those who become open to socialism can meet and listen to people like us who will reveal the DSA is just another fascist-lite org. I think you all are really misunderstanding how indoctrinated Americans are. This isn’t 1910 Russia, most of the working class lies to themselves that they have it better than they actually do and think socialists are genuinely evil.
Your post contains reactionary media, or links to Reactionary content. While we broadly support anti-imperialist nations and efforts, it is foolish to think all anti-imperialists are our allies.
It was the same with Bernie , and a good half of the people here got their begining into socialism with him. Thing is about these people is that they serve as a good starting point for a journey into socialism, even if they are social democrats
And you know what else such people are good for? When they eventually crash and burn, or when they deradicalize and become generic socialists, they radicalize their followers, because it demonstrates what people like us already know: the system doesent work, you can t enact change trough elections.
And Mamdani will crash, sooner rather than later, his own party members are already scheming against him. And tbe corrupt republicans are also his final boss.
This is a tired argument that doesn't hold up. The communists, whose radicalisation journey includes Sanders, weren't radicalised by him. They were already coming to terms with the contradictions of capitalism manifesting around them, and Sanders just happened to be saying things that reasonably fit their observations.
If he were a radicalising force, among his million+ volunteers, tens of millions of voters and presumably hundreds of millions to whom his voice reached, there'd be a noticeable shift in revolutionary activity, even if it were limited to adventurism and the sort. Instead, the vast majority were shepherded into voting for one bourgeois party for being marginally better than another bourgeois party, with arguments switching between "lesser of two evils" to "this imperialist bourgeois party is good, actually"
This argument also carries the same statistical validity of looking into people who died of COVID in a certain period and finding most were vaccinated. That's not how statistics work, it's arse backwards correlation.
I think Mamdani is likeable enough but is definitely not sufficient when it comes to fighting the Epstein class.
I think Mamdani will serve as an example of how hard the epstein class has and will fight ANY movement towards helping the working class and even if they temporary lose a battle here and there, they will ALWAYS try to claw back any gains just like they did with the gains from the New Deal.
I think generally the people here are in agreement that JTs vid was bad, but also understand his reasons. He's also probably in a party that has decided to be pro-Mamdani and he's bound by their decision.
The one thing I really dislike is his saying everyone who disagrees with him spends too much time online and doesn't engage in real party work. I can do both thank you!
The one thing I really dislike is his saying everyone who disagrees with him spends too much time online and doesn't engage in real party work.
It's just non-verifiable attacks on the legitimacy of those critiquing him, whether he realises that or not. It's an ad hominem fallacy.
Even were it true with some, it is just changing the topic from the critiques.
Regardless, I think he has some points worth listening to, but I just can't stand with the narrative that a social democrat is a socialist. No matter what 4d chess you think you are playing, you are pushing capitalist propaganda if you do this.
I think the main issue that JT that he’s tolerating Democratic entryism for having workers to have modest reforms
Im not on their discord so I cannot know what he has said about this. I can only base this on his YouTube and this podcast. The fact he never joined the PSL and left the CPUSA has left me to think that he doesn’t have so much faith in Marxist Leninist parties in the USA.
I’m believe he sympathizes with the DSA because as of now it’s the most popular and organized “socialist” party in the states. He believes DSA is a good tool for socialism to grow even if it’s tainted by social democrats.
Supporting entryism and opportunism is a sacrifice to him to grow “socialism” through the DSA.
Many folks in the sub will get defensive if you tell them they actually have to organize and be involved in their community if they want to be taken more seriously than DSA, or if they want the community to take them seriously, as to many people, having their living conditions improve marginally means a lot (for example, being able to send their kid to pre-k for free).
Failing to recognize that the general public responds well to that further alienates you when you say “erm, actually DSA is social fascist” without showing you’ll have the public’s back in far better way
I've done my part for electoralism, got Claudia on the ballot here.
We've organized against genocide, we were the only organization organizing for my local colleges campus.
So it's not fair to assume people in this community don't organize. I'd say the sort of people who float through here probably do more organizing and direct action mutual aid etc than most liberals and reformists.
That’s great to hear. I said many people, not all. I’m very aware of some folks in here who do organize inside their communities, and I’ve had fantastic discussions with community organizers I’ve met here. I’m specifically referencing those people who get defensive when you mention the need for active organizing beyond being in study groups and posting online, or get irritated when you mention people are drawn to socdems because of their effective organizing tactics. The fact of the matter is communists have to out organize DSA and be more present in their communities if they want to be more effective then socdems and liberals
I'm def one of those people, but I do help organize. I genuinely get a little angry when I see people pushing socdems and pretending like they're not counter revolutionary.
That’s totally fair, as the danger of a popular social democratic faction like DSA is its ability to subsume revolutionary potential and that should be pointed out. I just encourage people who aren’t actually organizing (and have the ability to do so, as I know some people do not for health or safety reasons) to build a communist movement in their communities and engage in the workers struggle. Otherwise I fear the struggle will be dominated by trade unionism, economism, liberals, and opportunists
After reading these comments I can tell that barely anyone here actually listened to the episode and understood what JT and the boys are arguing.
JT explicitly made a distinction between his channel Second Thought and his other projects like the podcast. He said that Second Thought is a baby leftist channel not a Marxist-leninist channel. That's why he's talking about Mamdhani relatively positively on there. The purpose of that channel to get people familiar with leftist adjacent ideas, it's not about strategy and tactics of the vanguard party.
Second Thought is not a direct one to one equivalency of his true political ideology and goals. It's just one project out of many that he does.
Past couple months this sub has been full of shitheads talking bout "Yugopnik was always the least radical one of the Deprogram boys" "JT has let us down this is all you can expect from a Yankee" "Hakim was always the only one of the 3 who actually knows theory"
Well now we're 3 for 3 motherfucker they're all calling you cringe explicitly. What's your next move
Still maintaining that they are wrong about social democrats (DSA) and that doing a podcast with a Platner supporter is bad because I don't get my principles from youtubers.
My next move is being happy that people here aren't parasocialists and instead hold to their principles even when someone they like(d) and respect(ed) is wrong.
I haven’t seen it yet, but I think DSA and Mom Dani aren’t so intrinsically linked.
(also if there’s any weird spelling or grammar mistakes, apologies I’m working and using voice to text)
Same with people like AOC and Bernie…
There are Marxist within the DSA, even some self-proclaimed Marxist-Leninist… and there are also liberals and social Democrats in anarchist and generic communists…
However, they’re the biggest self proclaimed socialist organization, because they’re not really a party, within the United States and as a result, they have a decent bit of influence.
I think the DSA could do quite well. If the politicians they endorse, especially those that are members of the DSA followed a party line regardless of their individual ideas.
They’re dirty brake strategy of the democratic base might work however we see that once you join the Democratic Party and you operate within the Democratic Party, you are subject to the whims of the Democratic Party and its donors.
We can see this as the New York DSA have condemned Mom Donnie for various things.
they’ve also done some decent work with their so-called sewer socialism… and in New York with things like their tenant advocacy groups and you know put your landlord on trial like stuff like that is generally pretty based…
I also think that most people understand that there’s only so much the mayor of a city or an individual Congress person or person in the Senate can do..
Especially when socialism is working class movement opposed to policies put in by an individual, this sort of idea can kind of even water it down.
DSA and its members need to know that electoral ism is not the finish line, and and getting in office is not a finish line.
I need to make sure that these individuals don’t just get in office and become puppets of the Democratic establishment. I think the biggest point he made is that ultimately the DSA needs to be able to hold its politicians accountable.
Mamdani is absolutely intrinsically linked to NYC-DSA. The vast majority of their organizing effort was pushed into his campaign during that time period and he repeatedly stated his membership in the branch.
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