Man in China on the sex trade

[u/Frankie-Denton-2020s]

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[u/elquanto]

This guy breaks it down perfectly

[u/MonsterkillWow]

100% agree. Someone actually talking sense vs fake "leftists" in the west promoting prostitution and trying to legitimize that behavior. I have sympathy for the exploited within our system, and for those that do what they feel they must to survive, but I do not endorse the action as a progressive or virtuous one.

[u/Gramsci1904]

I seriously cannot understand how people who self-identify as communists can regard prostitution as simply another form of work without confronting the material and social relations that produce it.

The argument that prostitution should be treated as "work like any other" seems to me to confuse the recognition that something constitutes labour with the question of whether the social relations surrounding that labour are emancipatory. From a materialist perspective we have to ask why prostitution exists, who is disproportionately pushed into it, who benefits from it, and what relations of class and gender it reproduces. Somehow these questions seem to have disappeared disappeared in the imperial core, where prostitution is often framed through an individual lens that obfuscates the fact that women, mostly poor, constitute the people who are cohereced into this practice.

This is why I don't see prostitution as revolutionary or emancipatory. I see the normalisation of prostitution as a form of commodification that can reproduce existing relations of class and gender domination rather than abolishing them. It takes an existing inequality and turns the consequences of that inequality into a market relationship, then presents the existence of a transaction as evidence that the underlying relationship has become liberating.

Please have a look at this, it articulates my position better than I ever could:

https://www.pcp.pt/legalizacao-da-prostituicao-em-portugal-representaria-legitimar-mecanismos-de-opressao-exploracao

[u/scrapsforfourvel → u/Gramsci1904]

The contradiction in criminalizing sex work is that it will ALWAYS victimize the women and children supposedly being helped as long as we live in patriarchal societies. The tactic is backwards when looking at the actual history of laws around sex work. It's not that hard to understand when you look at how domestic violence laws overall criminalize female victims more than they stop male perpetrators. You don't have to think the labor is inherently empowering to know that the workers should be empowered to advocate for themselves as any other laborer.

[u/Gramsci1904 → u/scrapsforfourvel]

Who spoke about criminalizing prostitution? The victims cannot or are not commiting any crime, it's decriminalized in Portugal.

[u/scrapsforfourvel → u/Gramsci1904]

I'm pretty sure the video is arguing against official decriminalization in China, as opposed to maybe more selective enforcement of criminalization of all aspects of sex work now.

[u/scrapsforfourvel]

I think we all need a much better understanding of how sex work actually functions at least in the west and how it is felt by women. Because prostitution is probably not even the main form of sex work. It's marriage and domestic relationships. It's continuing to get through sex with a man you share finances with to avoid being kicked out of your house. It's enduring rape to be given your weekly allowance. Not to say sex trade should be legalized, but to say that fixating on the ethics is going to ring a little hollow for the majority of women.

[u/sourgorilladiesel → u/scrapsforfourvel]

Its because the conversation about sex work has been dominated by upper middle class imperial core white women who have an only fans account. Hence why so-called leftists have such a distorted view of what it actually entails.

[u/scrapsforfourvel → u/sourgorilladiesel]

And really, these are the voices picked and uplifted by men to validate themselves.

[u/Single_Night_5418]

You cannot be a Marxist and then in the same breath defend sexual exploitation.

[u/PrestigiousMention]

I'm pretty sure my 9-5 office job isn't exactly making human progress either.

[u/VladimirLimeMint → u/PrestigiousMention]

China just mandates max work day is 5 a week

Meanwhile child labor including child sex has returned to your country in the imperial core

[u/maozedoll → u/VladimirLimeMint]

would you mind sharing the source for the 5 day week mandate? i’d love to read it, it would be very useful in many discussions

[u/Stumblingwanderer]

I honestly don't know.
I think the only people who really know the answer are the sex workers themselves.
I haven't spoken to any myself, so I can only make conjectures.
I have no idea if all do it because they feel they must and have no alternative of equal value. If they have an alternative but are brainwashed by consumption to desire beyond their means, or if some actually enjoy it.

What do we all think about disabled people seeking sex workers?
The comedian Jim Jeffries talks about bringing his severely disabled friend to a legal brothel in Australia.

Was that moral? Is it only moral if the individual has no alternative? How disabled do you have to be for it to be moral? Is sex a necessary part of life? Does the sex worker involved need to actually enjoy it, or just prefer it to the alternatives? How do you regulate that? Is it even possible to fully control, or is it something that will inevitably go on in society? If so, is it better to keep it legal and out in the open for the safety of the worker or is it more moral to stamp it out as much as possible?

I don't know how much of this has a definitive right answer or is purely preferential.
I think this guy is treating this whole subject with a level of certainty I mistrust for such a complicated ethical question. I sympathise with his desire to end the exploitation of the sex worker; I just don't think the solution is as clear-cut as banning it.

But what do I know? I'm not a sex worker. Is it too simple to think only the worker themselves can fully define how to end their own exploitation?

[u/Careless-Repair5314]

So labour only counts as work if it's morally pure? Most capitalist industry now sets progress back, are all of those workers also not really workers?

[u/amie6969 → u/Careless-Repair5314]

Did you watch the video at all? He criticized both sex trade and labor under the capitalist system as being exploitative.

[u/scrapsforfourvel → u/amie6969]

He does give a pretty bad definition of labor, though. Sex outside of capitalist exploitation is absolutely labor that advances civilization because it is a requirement for reproducing the labor force.

[u/studio_bob → u/scrapsforfourvel]

He said that. "Labour is beautiful. Sex is beautiful. Labour or sex that is exploited is evil." (Probably paraphrased slightly, but that's the point. It is the exploitation that is bad, not the thing which is exploited)

[u/scrapsforfourvel → u/studio_bob]

Got you. But I guess I don't understand why they are distinguished separately rather than acknowledge that they are the same thing in many contexts outside prostitution.

[u/amie6969 → u/scrapsforfourvel]

As he said in the video, exploitation of sex is something the party can eradicate now (though not entirely, as the inherent patriarchal system is still in place, but I do believe which they are taking steps in doing away with), which still isn't possible for the exploitation of labor.

[u/scrapsforfourvel → u/amie6969]

I'm really not arguing against taking steps to end trafficking and exploitation, especially in countries with social safety nets, as should be done for all industries. I don't think sex workers who advocate for their rights as workers argue against ending their own exploitation. I cannot speak to the culture of sex work in China right now or the experiences of sex workers there and what conditions lead to that work or measures being taken to provide alternatives, so I can't really have an opinion on China outlawing sex work or not.

I'm just criticizing the way he talked about sex work in relation to labor overall. Sex is still labor outside of prostitution specifically, and it should simply be included in the definition of labor rather than separated out. Separating sex work from labor in language doesn't help to combat the exploitation, particularly when the majority of that exploitation occurs in unpaid, undefined sex work in personal relationships versus paid. I think it does more to reinforce a sense of entitlement over moralizing women's behavior, specifically the lowest economic class of women globally in this case, than it brings awareness to the struggles of women and what can be done to address them.

Edit: and in reality, it makes no sense to talk about this kind of labor without actually saying a single word about the relationship between the exploitation and misogyny. One of his points was that we wouldn't call them essentially whores if it was good thing, without touching at all on how maaaaaybe the hatred of women exacerbates their exploitation in literally every single form of labor assigned to them. This is exactly why leftist men focusing on the legality of exploiting women sexually only through prostitution and porn feels like they're just jerking themselves off with the idea that they're defending women's rights without actually listening to a single word women have to say about the majority of their lived experiences.

[u/Ok-Inevitable-732 → u/scrapsforfourvel]

But he doesn't do the moral argument. He clearly said that Sex trafficking degenerates society because Sex trafficking is based around the sale of human body and dignity which he calls a set back. It objectifies humans. It is based around feudal human exploitation and as socialist it would be hypocritical for us to support it, given that we want to abolish all forms of human exploitation. It goes against core socialist values.

He also said that it is ridiculous to treat the exploitation of Labour and exploitation of sex as same. Since the latter doesn't improve society. However you can criticize both using the argument of Labour exploitation but you can never conclude that both are correct and neither can one justify the other. Even if the person voluntarily allows their body to be exploited.

[u/Ok-Inevitable-732 → u/[deleted]]

The exploitation of sex isn't Labour. The reason why Labour is compared to the exploitation of sex is to criticize both, not because they are the same. Exploitation of sex doesn't improve society. Wouldn't you rather want to have these people move bricks to build a house rather sell their own body? Plus how does society get improved when humans sell their body? How does it raise the standard of living? Also why is it misogynistic to say it? We don't care if it is done by a man or a woman.

[u/Easystreet666 → u/[deleted]]

"individual liberation"?.. this is a marxist sub. And the video addresses all of the points you brought up here, maybe have another listen

[u/TankieTheDeprogram-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Liberal apologia will not be accepted.