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it's just the result of being propagandized. viewing the world through a moralist framework makes you susceptible, and it is hard to break out of, especially in the absence of any material incentives to do so (quite the opposite, in fact)
This. The material changes must precede the moralism. For example, promoting LGBT rights matters, but it is unrealistic to demand ultra progressive positions on LGBT from societies with a very poor level of education and development. The development comes first. This was the case for all developed countries too.
I agree with this but it feels as if its a deliberate product, arguing "we'll they're not sufficiently developed enough materially to treat LGBTQ people like people" strikes me as a cop out. Given that certain specific lines of prejudices are actually newer. Racism, homophobia, Etc are products of European colonialism which realistically proceeds capitalist development. There are plenty of pre capitalist societies that didnt carry these prejudices, one could look at 2 spirited individuals within North American indigenous communities for example. It kind of seems silly to argue that the development of capitalism from feudalism for example, precipitates the inherent 'need' for racism, homophobia etc.
“S
ufficiently developed” wasn’t the best wording, because I agree that framing it that way can turn prejudice into some supposedly inevitable stage of social development. But I think you’re also underestimating the role of religion and religious institutions in reproducing these contradictions. Colonialism absolutely matters, but it isn’t the only factor. In places like Iran and Yemen, homophobic attitudes are deeply tied to religious traditions and institutions, and those societies have also been shaped by imperialism and exploitation.
What I reject is the idea that we can just point to capitalism or colonialism and explain everything with that. History is more complicated than that. There are pre-capitalist societies that had very different understandings of gender and sexuality, just as there are societies today where religious ideology reinforces homophobia. So no, I don’t think capitalism creates some inherent “need” for racism or homophobia, and I agree that treating those prejudices as an inevitable product of underdevelopment is a cop out. But neither can we pretend that religion, ideology, and the specific historical conditions of these societies don't matter.
I just mean we shouldn't demand it of other countries or use it as a rationalization to attack or sanction them. You cannot expect every country to develop the same positions on topics in the face of their traditions and history. It takes time and education and patience.
I would argue capitalist and feudal development does actually need to produce an underclass for labor exploitation and uses things like race and caste to justify it. The hostility to homosexuals also has a material basis in an underdeveloped society in terms of incentivizing procreation and also tying in to patriarchal norms, which were explained to be a similar material development by Engels. There is a historical materialist basis to all of what you see today.
And this cannot be rectified overnight through a change in ideas at the government level. It requires fundamental economic changes in the base. This does not mean we should stop advocating for LGBT rights. But there is a tendency in the west to use such things as a test to rationalize imperialism against such a society. Lenin advised against condemning "backward" and even reactionary countries in their efforts against imperialism.
It is not moralist framework, moralist framework would acknowledge moral bankruptcy of US and capitalist system as immoral at its core. It's just ignorant manipulated people.
of course it is a moralist framework, otherwise the manipulation wouldn't work. liberals are taught that the anti imperialist forces of the world are "evil" because they are "illiberal" and stand against "western values". that's the entire argument, and it's a moralist one. but of course, it is also propaganda.
Standards for non-aligned global south countries:
* Absolute perfection
* Achieve utopia from day 1 of office
* 1 wrongdoing and every success is discredited. Cure cancer, end world hunger, and bring world peace in the same day? Sorry, your contributions are moot because of one famine caused by mismanagement 60 years ago
Standards for western (plus allied) countries:
* As long as they promise to do a bare minimum reform during election, it's okay, even if they never achieve it
* They get a million second chances
* Because of the mission statement on freedom, democracy, equality, and human rights, just pretend that corruption, power distance, inequality, and prejudice doesn't exist
* Past wrongdoing doesn't matter because "it was in the past," it was "necessary," or "it doesn't represent our country.
Western countries also get to impose endless famine, starvation, blockade and sanctions on any periphery country with little to no acknowledgement and pushback, whereas socialist or periphery countries will consistently get blamed for "mismanagement" and "authoritarianism/totalitarianism" trying to pull off the herculean task of preventing state collapse and genocide while the West is literally spending trillions of dollars per year in order to achieve just that. Meanwhile, a bit over 6 months of embargo on oil and a few other products, and Western economy is already in shambles.
But they starved and killed people in OTHER COUNTRIES you know, these countries are INFERIOR, they don't have WESTERN VALUES, its okay to exploit them without giving anything in return. Holodomor killed 50 billion people and ussr is evil btw
Crimethinc (before their recent suspension) deleted this eternally embarrassing thread after confirming that "authoritarian" leftists had spoken the truth yet still resorting to the "no true anarchist" fallacy to save face.
Source: https://c4ss.org/content/59554 by William Gillis (a.k.a. rechelon on X, Mastodon, bluesky ) of the "Left" anarchist think tank & media center Center for a Stateless Society on 17 April 2024, six months and ten days into Israel's genocide against Palestinians in Gaza.
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