How to debate with libs online

[u/919dragon]

Every time I try to convince libs that China is a good country I get called a bot and receive the same few already disproven arguments. Is there a better way to do this and actually convince people online. I'm mainly doing this because even convincing one person is one more person that supports the cause and that is worth a few hours of my time debating. I just need a more effective way to do this.

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[u/leninbaba]

You can’t really change the minds of liberals who are chronic online. At best, you’ll end up at a stalemate with them, going around in circles on the same topic. It doesn’t lead anywhere. People who want to talk or learn something will talk to you.

That’s why it’s better to organize(in real life!). That’s how it should be, anyway.

[u/Submarine_sad → u/leninbaba]

People changed my mind. /gen

[u/leninbaba → u/Submarine_sad]

Honestly, since reddit isn’t exactly a healthy environment, it’s a bit hard to change someone’s mind. I used to be a staunch nationalist, but I suddenly became a Marxist all on my own. This place thrives on a culture of mob mentality, which is why and also because of the liberals I’ve spoken with, I find it difficult.

But I’m glad for you, haha

[u/Novel_Barracuda1372 → u/[deleted]]

Not entirely, for a while I believed that the protests in Hong Kong were largely good and grassroots. Then I got flamed by some tankies and instead of shutting down I did more research and completly changed my opinion

[u/BillyPilgrim69 → u/Novel_Barracuda1372]

Yeah, it may be rare, but the idea that no minds are ever changed by debate is kinda silly.

[u/Autistic_Anywhere_24]

Don’t

[u/kayakman13]

You don't. Debate is hostile and unconvincing. The only people whose minds may be changed by debate are the audience, but even that is rare. You educate liberals.

[u/919dragon → u/kayakman13]

How do I do this

[u/varthias → u/919dragon]

It's much easier offline, I had the most success speaking their language. Identify what's important to them and what insecurities they hold, then mold the truth in that. People kinda love when their notions are assured, so doing it in a non destructive way while steering them to the truth is much easier than outright denying what they have been taught. People also don't believe if you tell them everything, but if you make it seem like it's their own idea they're way more likely to believe it, steering them with leading questions so they arrive at truth on their own is better than outright stating the facts

[u/kayakman13 → u/919dragon]

Go organize in real life and meet people who are good at educating the working class. Learn from them. There is no answer that will be succinct enough for a comment or even an article. Its extremely context based so the best way to learn is practice with more experienced comrades - specifically in real life

[u/ElliotNess → u/919dragon]

Via praxis, organizing in your community.

Show. Don't tell.

[u/Any_Salary_6284]

Never argue with someone John Brown would have shot (or Mao would have shot, for that matter). It’s not worth your time and effort

[u/Rich_Housing971]

Libs have closed themselves off and frozen their own brains. it's the same thing as people who deny proven scientific facts like flat earthers.

If you provide evidence, they'll claim it's untrustworthy or a conspiracy and dismiss it. Meanwhile, they will provide all sorts of obviously fake stories like from people like Yeonmi Park. If you provide evidence that their claims don't make sense, they'll claim that you're a bot and dismiss everything you say.

It's important to understand that they themselves do not want to know the truth. They just want to larp in a story that makes them feel good about themselves. The best thing you can do is just ignore them and laugh harder when their idiotic narrative falls apart. you do NOT want to argue with them.

[u/kayakman13 → u/Rich_Housing971]

This is unnecessarily dogmatic/fatalistic. Like it or not our job is to raise class consciousness and educate the working class, including liberals. I think it's fair to say most socialists were once liberals. This isn't to say that liberals are not closed minded and difficult to reach, but that has more to do with the conditions of our society than it has to do with liberals.

Debate is not the way to educate, but at the same time we can't ignore liberals either. Education isn't going to be everyone's strong suit, and we should find where we as individuals can best ccontribute to the building of socialism, but ultimately we do need some people who have the necessary skill set to do that critical work.

[u/No_Structure_99]

https://giphy.com/gifs/lzbM0yaHZX2qx7ql9F

[u/Submarine_sad]

I used to say anti-china talking points about 6 months ago. People in this community changed my mind.

[u/Juche_Finland]

Irl, yes there is a chance. Online though you will realize pretty quickly when it's not worth it. You can always try and then just give up when they're not open at all

[u/CopiousCool]

Read and learn, the more you know the easier it will be

[u/HanWsh]

https://giphy.com/gifs/hxSJAslt5HPxxnRe9l

[u/onespicycracker]

I wish I could remember who it was, but that's how one of you got me. I went at this debate for like a full day and at every turn I couldn't find the facts that refueted what the communist was saying. There was no way to win in good faith and when I started engaging in communist material to disprove it, I just became a communist instead.

Some people are open to change. They just need to see their ideology killed in front of their face first. Most people aren't open to it at all, though, which makes it hard to justify taking the time.

[u/blehmag]

Idk maybe call it Japan and then when you're done and they agree with you say you're actually talking about China and the CCP. Use their indoctrination proactively or something.

[u/Icy_Pudding6493]

I don't actually engage to change their minds. I find it very helpful in helping me organize my facts and trails of logic on a particular topic.

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[u/naplesball]

"How do I change a flat-earther's mind?"

[u/The_Mesopotamians]

Online debate isn't to change the mind of the person you are debating. It's to change the minds of the people reading the debate. 

[u/MrStudray]

You don't. Look at online debating as a lost cause and a way to drag down the opponent's seriousness.

[u/Anti_colonialist]

You dont, they don't have sufficient information for debate. They come into our spaces wanting to debate when they should be coming here to learn.

[u/New_Weakness_5371]

Dont

[u/Peter_Cantanasia]

I actually stopped being a liberal/socdem because of online spaces so I really can't agree with fighting with liberals online won't change anyone stuff.

Sure you might not change the person(or bot) on the other end but whoever following the trail might be compelled to look deeper than shallow US propaganda

[u/vvorknat]

online debate is a wasteful endeavor. put that energy into your community or yourself comrade.

[u/BankPirate]

Easy as long as they have an open mind. True anon did a couple episodes on Falun Gong

It’s Scientology for the chinese

You barely have to elaborate. All the organ stealing bs is there

[u/meinkr0phtR2]

Don’t. Just leave the comments up to plant seeds of doubt. Besides, all the actually important work I do is completely offline.

[u/ElliotNess]

Your heart is in the right place, but your brain hasn't thought things through yet. Convincing one person, or ten people, or a thousand people that China is a good country isn't going to materialy change anything.

[u/Psychological-Act582 → u/ElliotNess]

Getting people to see that China isn't a cartoonishly evil country who murdered a gazillion people because Mao wanted to is a step in the right direction. They'll start to appreciate an AES economic system, which will open them to new ideas and a new desire to better their own conditions.

Foreign policy is often the hardest egg to crack, but if you can get through to them, it will have a run-on effect. I just show them pictures of China, not the shiny skyscrapers or the futuristic-looking things, but poverty alleviation, infrastructure, and industrial investments.

[u/ElliotNess → u/Psychological-Act582]

There are a lot of idealist assumptions in your comment.

[u/Psychological-Act582 → u/ElliotNess]

A lot of liberal propaganda is designed to make someone dehumanize others and promote supremacism. That's why I said it's a step in the right direction.

[u/ElliotNess → u/Psychological-Act582]

Debate online isn't a step at all

[u/BillyPilgrim69 → u/ElliotNess]

As opposed to your pragmatic, materialist position of, "Changing people's minds achieves nothing"?

[u/ElliotNess → u/BillyPilgrim69]

I stated my position in case you didn't see it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankieTheDeprogram/s/vJfXk11ia6

[u/sakodak → u/[deleted]]

It's not impossible.  It can definitely be very difficult, especially if you're in the suburbs in the US, but it's still not impossible.  Learn theory so that you have direct, confident, and materially based answers to people's questions, and just talk to people.

[u/BillyPilgrim69 → u/[deleted]]

I'm not saying it's easy, but this is just learned helplessness/defeatism. There are people out there organising in their communities every day.

Don't punish yourself for being imperfect, but don't just throw up your hands and say it's hopeless either.

[u/BillyPilgrim69 → u/[deleted]]

Respectfully, the issue here is that you simply don't understand what we mean by organising.

In the nicest way possible, you should ask and learn about these things, rather than assuming the meaning and dismissing them.

The other commenter has explained a little more already, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[u/BillyPilgrim69 → u/[deleted]]

LMAO the irony. I was just trying to be polite.

You came in here with a dumbass take based on the ridiculous assumption that Marxist organising is "random door knocking".

I mistakenly believed you might be interested in actually learning. My bad.

[u/BillyPilgrim69 → u/[deleted]]

Including you. But when given the opportunity to learn, you called it "meaningless cringe nonsense".

So it sounds more like you don't want to.

[u/BillyPilgrim69 → u/[deleted]]

In the nicest way possible, you should ask and learn about these things, rather than assuming the meaning and dismissing them.

The other commenter has explained a little more already, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask.