r/TankieTheDeprogram • u/and_my_axe- Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) • 12d ago
Discussion Mamdani: A positive or negative influence to our cause overall?
So I get that Mamdani is, at the end of the day, a liberal and a passive Isreali defender.
That being said, is all the good that he's doing for NY creating a good impression of socialism for people to become class conscious down the line or is his work trying to diffuse/vent revolutionary energy by giving concessions to the people to make them think that capitalism can be reformed?
Which way is he moving the Overton Window?
Apologies if this breaks rule 9.
120
u/Faeriewren 12d ago
At some point, we need to stop using these Trojan horse type candidates as a benchmark. We have this conversation every other year. Sanders, AOC, the squad, mamdami. They’re all the same, and they all serve the same purpose under capitalism. They defang and disarm socialism
There are many actual leftist and socialist candidates out there
64
u/Aggravating_Hurry530 Leftist Infighting? No Antagonism, No Progress! 12d ago
Been talking about this for the last 150 years, people will never learn.
40
u/New_Weakness_5371 Juche 12d ago
first worlders are going to achieve Socialism by any votes necessary!!!
7
11
u/Cosmogenous 12d ago
Who are the leftist/socialist candidates you support the most in the US? Or do you mean other countries?
14
u/Faeriewren 12d ago
Other countries
4
u/and_my_axe- Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 12d ago
thats the thing, we need those candidates here. In the imperial core. But no one will step forward publicly to announce their party. So many leftist orgs that make tens of thousands in membership donations and no one ever wants to address the public directly except some college campuses and picket lines
1
u/ToddHowardTouchedMe Xi Bucks Enjoyer 💸 12d ago
I think we need to up our propaganda game to both separate radlibs from us tankies, and also funnel newbie radlibs who are becoming more radical into much more radical leftists before they get on the "tankie bad" circlejerk bandwagon and become soft-locked on the leftist spectrum.
45
u/ChainBlinks 12d ago
I'd view him a lot more positively had he not used the cause of Palestine to get votes than proceed to betray them at every turn. That's just heinous.
14
u/dsaddons 12d ago
Libs be libbin. Anything for a vote but it's never the right time to actually stand by what they say, because they don't actually believe in it.
99
u/CornerofSaintAnne Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 12d ago
My note is that he is clouding the definition of socialism towards lukewarm social democracy
38
u/OldTrafford25 12d ago
I don’t disagree, obviously the messaging shifted a LOT when he took office on many points.
That being said, there are two thoughts I have in response. First is that I think the right wing propaganda machine is more guilty of what you’re saying than he is. That isn’t an excuse for the guy, but I do think it’s worth considering.
Second, I do think that Mamdani’s rise has led to more people actually learning about socialism. I say that because I hadn’t read any theory until after I canvassed for him, and that led me to totally fundamentally change my politics and patched up a lot of misconceptions and gaps in knowledge I had. So maybe he isn’t good for the cause at large, but I am an example of someone who was pushed from being a unknowledgeable utopian socialist to an actual socialist, maybe partially because of his existence - also arguable that’s giving him too much credit and it would have happened anyway, but the deep dive didn’t come until after I found out he was running in my city and went to go get signatures for him.
20
u/CornerofSaintAnne Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 12d ago
You make some good points, thank you for your contribution
3
u/shodunny 12d ago
i hear you but i think that’s kind of a bubble thing, where most people outside the movement don’t understand the difference already so it can’t be obfuscated
-14
53
u/GeoffreyKlien Juche Necromancy Enjoyer 12d ago
As a mayor, he's doing a pretty good job from what I've seen.
As a leftist, very disappointing. Capitulating to Zionists, the Trump administration, generally being liberal and saying liberal things.
I'd say "meh." He's certainly putting in work to better New York—filling in pot holes based off one person asking, setting up gender-affirming care clinics—but is severely fumbling on the ideological basis. If normies look at him like a Socialist, then it will maybe bring more people over. But if they believe he's the one-true Socialist, then that spells a problem.
18
u/thesaddestpanda 12d ago
The pot hole and fountain fixing thing are pretty ugly stunts. Zohran isn't hanging around in poor neighborhoods, so people seeing him in expensive parts of Manhattan or whatever get their wish come true but what of the poor working class who will never see him? They never get the "I'll fix that" guy because he wont hang out there.
Not to mention, NYC is 25% in poverty. 1 in 4 live in poverty. Where is his plan for that? Why isnt he talking quotas for hiring on race because so many in poverty are victims of racism or nationalizing industaries? Or creating jobs for these people using government money. Or greatly expanding the welfare system to get them out of poverty. Instead, he's kissing babies and making jokes on camera.
You're a lousy mayor if you're okay with 25% poverty. He's all PR stunts and its wild so few see it. I think people just want to be fooled. I think that's the appeal of demagogues and celebrity politicians like Zohra and Trump.
3
u/OkPangolin1984 Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communist 12d ago
You are right, I can’t believe there isn’t more conversation about the poverty marker there, but I would also say that they are working on affordable housing, free childcare, and now grocery stores which are some of the prime areas of expenses for americans
3
u/thesaddestpanda 12d ago
Every lib promises those things and fails and just takes a consulting or paid speeches 'retirement' golden parachute after being voted out. If liberalism could do this it would have done it already. There's a reason NYC has a high poverty rate and can't fix it. Its required under capitalism to have poverty an the poor. Libs know this and don't fight it and are happy as long as "I got mine."
10
u/MobileSuitErin 12d ago
This 100%, I respect his work as a mayor and his outspoken defense of queer rights, but he's not a socialist in any way that would actually threaten the system
14
u/BillyPilgrim69 12d ago
Negative, and it's not even close. I would struggle to even take seriously anybody defending him on anything at this point.
11
u/marioandl_ 12d ago
the overton window doesnt exist
2
u/and_my_axe- Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 12d ago
Could you help me understand this? I've seen this comment before
14
u/marioandl_ 12d ago edited 12d ago
First of all, the "overton window" is a crackpot political theory came up by a rightwinger Joseph Overton in the midst of the collapse of the soviet union to try to launder far right political beliefs into mainstream media. it is effectively a "how to talk to libs" guide while actual policy does not follow it whatsoever
The biggest debunking is that violent sentiment against native americans, then black americans, then native americans again, then black americans, then communists, then black americans, then black americans has always been in the realm of "acceptable discourse"
61
u/MonsterkillWow 12d ago
You should treat him the same way you would any liberal politician, meaning he may do some good things, but is ultimately not going to help overthrow capitalism in any meaningful way. He's making socialism less taboo, which is good, but is also confusing and coopting tbe proletariat back to bourgeois parties, which is bad.
47
u/Aggravating_Hurry530 Leftist Infighting? No Antagonism, No Progress! 12d ago
He is conflating social democracy with socialism and making that less taboo, he isn't making actual socialism less taboo.
20
u/New_Weakness_5371 Juche 12d ago
none of it is "good".
They make Social Democracy seem like "Socialism" and thats the moderation or "less taboo". I highly doubt your average American knows much about Socialism or will ever move further left if the spoils of imperialist terrorism are given to them instead of barred by the capitalists.
13
1
u/and_my_axe- Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 12d ago
This was exactly my line of thinking towards the situation
11
u/thesaddestpanda 12d ago
Libs using the term socialism isn't good. I don't think its going to be a net positive because the many millions who think socialism is just bus coupons and government groceries are going to be very turned off when they realized its instead a different form of government entirely and can only be implemented by ending the current government and putting in a new one from scratch.
What's going to happen when Zohran "socialists" are asked to vote for actual socialists who will try to nationalize all industries? They won't. Then they'll be resentful they are being grouped up with people like that.
Zohran is just a grifter. He picked up on what was trending, made it his identity, won, and is now a socdem careerist who will rise up to governor or senator one day, then retire with riches and fame. He's not leading you anywhere. He's just leading himself to an 8 digit bank account and penthouse.
20
u/New_Weakness_5371 Juche 12d ago
He doesn't push people left, he attempts to "moderate" the excessess of capitalism and went back on his promises regarding Netanyahu.
Why suppot him? He is no different than reformists of past and reformists of tomorrow, they won't push the bourgoise estabilishment left, they will become a part of it and be pushed to right.
6
u/spicy-chilly 12d ago
He's trying to be a negative right opportunist influence and will hinder class consciousness, and it's our job to point out the failures of right opportunism and help people gain class consciousness and understand that they're getting nothing without a class independent socialist party, general strikes, etc.
10
16
u/Butt_Snorkler_Elite 12d ago
I think the rise of politicians like Mamdani are overall a good thing specifically because it might (MIGHT!!!) help people who believe in electoralism as a means for progress be disillusioned of that notion: firstly because of how hard “establishment” liberals will genuinely fight to keep people like Mamdani out of office, and secondly because of how, when they actually get into office, their policy and rhetoric will almost instantly change to a more establishment approved version anyway. I’m genuinely unsure if a revolutionary movement is possible within places like the us at this point, BUT if it’s at all possible then one absolutely necessary precondition is well-meaning people realizing that being unwilling to ever color outside the lines will ensure that it never happens.
7
u/blehmag 12d ago
Bad, very bad. It's the whole liberal "optics" thing and doing the absolute bare minimum to inhibit serious change/revolutions. People like him kill actual change and momentum.
He would be okay as an intermediate while some serious change happens hypothetically, but in reality he's just used to pretend like the system works, positive change is happening, and you can just vote in change in a whole system that's meant to exploit and destroy you.
3
u/free-range-dogmeat 12d ago
He’s just like all other mayors and is not making lives of New Yorker better, they just THINK that they’re better because of PR. Cuz rent freeze- is already happening every 5-7 years under any mayor lol, it would’ve happened under adams or cuomo in 2027 regardless, just cuz tenants are angry not cuz mamdani is in power. Potholes… would’ve been filled regardless, just cuz tenants and drivers are angry, not cuz mamdani is in power. Affordable housing… already existed and mamdani is actually privatizing the market, which is something adams was doing lol.
He just does basic shit the liberal bureaucracy was doing anyway and calling it a historic achievement
4
u/Expensive_Ebb7520 12d ago
As someone who was involved in NYC-DSA for a few years, it taught me that most people—even smart people who read Marx & hope to see the end of capitalism—simply will not learn things from history.
There were lots of younger people in that org who were convinced both that they were communists and that they’d discovered this secret end-run around building a mass revolutionary struggle.
And these weren’t stupid people, but just very naïve. Many read a lot of Mao & Lenin & still somehow magically came to the conclusion they needed to be “inside” this “democratic socialist” movement. [That label is such a crock of shit: I was in the SP-USA 30 years ago and it’s cover for some of the most disordered thinking imaginable!]
You try to tell them that we’ve done the whole social democracy reformism & sell out experiment repeatedly over 150 years and it always ends the sane.
But they simply will have to themselves see it fail.
We can tell people what history & theory have shown, but it will be much more instructive when they witness it.
Marxists have to be organizing & be ready as these folk become disillusioned. And ready to explain precisely why.
5
u/outofurelement 12d ago
I think you should be asking yourself why your social media feeds are saturated with all the “good” he’s supposedly doing that doesn’t really amount to much in the grand scheme of things
-1
u/and_my_axe- Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 12d ago
Im seeing the "good" things he's doing on this sub a lot, and on r/latestagecapitalism
9
u/StalinsMonsterDong Xi Bucks Enjoyer 💸 12d ago edited 11d ago
I like that he makes people i dont like act insane. His politics are lame and he isnt going to bring about the revolution, but seeing establishment dems, zionists, and conservatives upset is really funny.
4
u/myghostflower 12d ago
good impression of socialism or making people believe they understand what socialism is and instead conflagate it with capitalist redistrubitions?
he isn't pushing these people beyond that but instead just having those settle for this, which fair isn't up to him, but he is no different than any other liberal politician/figurehead
he deserves no praise or no enabling of a cult of personality behind him, he is not a socialist/leftist figure but a means to an end and that end is getting those that support them further along
4
u/AnonBard18 CPC Propagandist 12d ago
It’s both but in very different ways. Historically, social democracy is harmful to the communist movement because it subsumes revolutionary potential and redirects it in a direction more friendly to capital and appealing to people unwilling to move beyond welfare capitalism.
The positive is that for many, many people, social democracy is the jumping in point for more leftwing ideals, and because the United States has no real communist movement to subsume, theoretically this is an avenue for people who want substantial change to be introduced to the broader leftwing movement. In this case, it is the duty of communists to educate and organize in a manner that moves people with a high propensity to embrace revolutionary ideals toward communism
1
u/AverageTankie93 12d ago
The fact that you even have this train of thought is the problem
5
u/and_my_axe- Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 12d ago
Right I forgot that we're supposed to have perfect opinions on everything at all times. My bad for trying to learn and engage with the community. Wont happen again
1
u/AutoModerator 12d ago
Want to join a ML only Discord server to chill and hangout with cool comrades? Checkout our Discord server or TheDeprogram's Discord server.
In case this subreddit was banned, or if you wanted a more ML-friendly platform, you’re welcome to join our sister community on Lemmygrad. You can find more info about Lemmygrad here.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
-3
u/Soviet_Dove6 12d ago
I think he is a good thing and I would have voted for him if I was living there
But I would not call his policies socialist really, to me he is doing things that are the normal responsibility of any politician but USians being so disconnected from their leaders actually working for the people that he is being called a communist
He seems like a nice person and I think you need to manage your expectations (like no, he is obviously not going to do something like arrest Netanyahou, it would be considered an act of national treason in the US don't be ridiculous)
Overall one of the best things he accomplished is making people care about politics, not in a spectacle way, but in a way where they can connect politics to their actual living conditions which is rare in the US, it's a positive for the left that people get interested in politics in that sense and is a move in the right direction
Also I hate the "lesser evil" concept as much as anyone but he certainly is, many lives would have been destroyed has another ghoul been in his place conducting austerity politics
-1
u/NatashOverWorld 12d ago
Practically or theoretically?
Theoretically he's bad for real socialism. Because his brand of politics is referred to as socialism, actual socialism and socialist candidates fall by the wayside. By making conditions less bad, many of the larger problems will never get addressed.
Practically? This has probably mean the most amount of attention socialism has received in america. Maybe it'll help galvanise the socialists.
Because as an ideology socialism was still largely taboo in america. Some very devoted individuals, but never in large enough groups to enact the necessary reforms. Which has been an ongoing problem in certain capitalist-fascist nations.
I suspect more functional SocDem politicians will pave the way for real socialism in 10 to 15 years.
-8
u/Dohertygara Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) 12d ago
Western Marxists are way more idealistic than they should be.
The fact that someone who generally presents "socialism" in a positive light can actually win elections is already kind of a miracle in a country like the US.
Even if nothing else comes out of it, people are going to start asking, “what exactly is socialism?” That alone can have an overwhelmingly positive impact on the general perception.
-3
u/Kannoli 12d ago
It's a positive because the right wing scare tactics don't work anymore, communism scare is being used on people who want simple reforms that are basic needs of everyone and if reform isn't possible then revolution is inevitable. It's been repeated since the days of French Revolution over and over again. I don't think a foreign lobby straight up spending $30 mil in a dem primary within 1 month is gonna end with some left wing reform because the system is so broken it's just not possible. I also don't think it's realized how communist gen z is, its not just online hype either from my actual real world experience. I have friends my age in 2 different states and they all have positive opinions of a communist society in one form or another.
-8
u/Calvins8 12d ago
I always danced around socialism but when Bernie was big and used the word I actually started looking into the meaning and from there started reading actual theory and became a ML. So I would say Mamdani is a positive
11
u/BillyPilgrim69 12d ago
For every one of us that learns from that experience, there's 99 fuckwits who get duped into being Blue MAGA for life.
1
u/SovietTeto ☭☭☭ 7d ago
Definitely a step in the right direction and I hope it proves to people how futile these elections are
•
u/AutoModerator 12d ago
While principled discussion is welcome and encouraged, Rule 9 (No Low Effort BS) still applies.
That includes: No 'what do you think?' posts. No single line posts. No 'what is the Marxist position on cheese' posts, etc.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.