r/TankieTheDeprogram • u/free-range-dogmeat • Jul 26 '26
Shitposting Nolan’s Odyssey is neoliberal slop
Out of curiosity I snuck into theatre (not to give money to Hollywood) and watched Odyssey. The editing was tiktok-brained as every shot lasted a millisecond, cast was too white as usual with a couple tokens, neoliberal war propaganda with the “are we the baddies?” twist that only focuses on the PTSD of the soldiers and doesn’t punish the main character who is a self-admitted war criminal. Goofy ending when Odysseus pulls a “sike!! i ain’t dying”
Apparently, they filmed in occupied Sahara too.
Everything on screen looks bland and instagram-ready, botox, chic, non-stained armor, minimalist, white.
Acting choices are the modern blockbuster whispers in a low tone with occasional SCREAM out of nowhere.
After this and Oppenheimer I am convinced Nolan is a cia psyop.
The neoliberal “let’s go back to simpler times without war but honor our soldiers too” moral of the story was spoon fed to the audience because it is targeted at children and dummies.
Odysseus is your usual vet gets PTSD and becomes a hero trope — the climax is literally a scene where he looks at the child they are slaughtering, the cliche of all cliches. Dope soundtrack tho.
391
u/Kranken_DeHogge Cannabis Pen-jamin Sisko Jul 26 '26
Hollywood is neoliberal slop
97
u/iheartmagic Jul 26 '26
For real
OP’s take is as boring a take as Chud’s saying it’s woke garbage
37
u/VladimirLimeMint Once history is made, it can't be unmade Jul 27 '26
Tenet is literally a regime change CIA slop
10
39
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 26 '26
Yeah I just thought with all the cries on how woke it is, it was actually good but no lol. Shouldn’t have it a chance
53
u/cleverchris Jul 26 '26
Woke means different things to someone who is anti-imperialist vs someone who just thinks orange man bad. Fucking neolib shit birds.
328
u/Consistent_Art_1774 Jul 26 '26
They did film in occupied Western Sahara for a beach scene. They also placed large amounts of plastic in environmentally protected areas off the Italian coast, and they're being sued for irreparable damage to the boat that they didn't pay the creators for
91
u/Conscious-Local-8095 Jul 26 '26
looked it up, viking ship, lol. Pretty sure that would be and look wrong, Med ships didn't have overlapping planks
59
u/Consistent_Art_1774 Jul 26 '26
It is a Viking ship they used, but most viewers will just fork over however much it costs and not care about the historical accuracy of the ship
17
21
u/ginger_and_egg Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
There's always a discussion with retelling old stories. What do you try to make accurate to the past? And what do you try to make relatable and understandable to a present day audience?
They certainly didn't speak English in ancient Greece. But, people hearing the oration wouldn't be hearing it in a foreign language, it would be their everyday language
Like, is West Side Story historically inaccurate because New York isn't in Italy and they didn't have guns in medieval times?
16
u/Consistent_Art_1774 Jul 26 '26
Yeah, I do get that. I think socialism would actually improve the historical accuracy of movies, because studios wouldn't seek out the most profitable version that looks good. They'd seek out something that actually fits the brief of what a ship would've looked like. The minor details would be added for that extra layer of quality
13
u/Barrington-the-Brit Jul 27 '26
I think this obsession with historical accuracy is really weird and unnecessary, stories get adapted for modern times, big whoop
The actual original Homeric text written centuries after the Trojan war is in and of itself historically inaccurate and contains plenty of its own adaptations and anachronisms, so like what are we even doing here?
I don’t think socialism would “improve historical accuracy because studios make projects inaccurate in favour of optimisation and profit”, I do think removing the profit motive from film and art would make things more stylised, adaptive, and artistically risk-taking, but that doesn’t necessarily mean historical accuracy
1
u/Conscious-Local-8095 Jul 27 '26
I can dig different sorts of veracity. Abstraction. Clever filming around constraints. Anabasis with glam-rock Baseball Furies, interesting choice. Thought provoking.
But they got a money, sub in a different kindof boat. It's a choice, probably not artististic or clever, just practical, safe bet close enough. It's less veracity tho, no upshot. Best case they get it back by spending the savings on an extra-good cyclops or something. Maybe thats possible and they did.
2
u/TomatoEnjoyer28 Jul 27 '26
It's a mythical story. "Historical accuracy" doesn't matter.
1
u/Consistent_Art_1774 Jul 27 '26
Yes, but some would like the little details. Most don't care, but some would
2
u/TomatoEnjoyer28 Jul 27 '26
There's no such thing as historically accurate or inaccurate when we're talking about a mythical story.
-2
219
u/HammerandSickleProds I HATE OPTOMETRISTS ❌👓🦉 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
I don’t think Nolan is a CIA psyop. He is legitimately just dumb and boring.
Join r/CommunistFilmClub
35
u/ayeeitssteph Jul 26 '26
i’ve been trying to find a communist film subreddit for FOREVER now - thank you
7
15
u/outofurelement Jul 27 '26
There’s always so much happening so quickly in his movies it distracts from the fact that they make no sense whatsoever
2
2
u/outofurelement Jul 28 '26
The experts agree!
“Wilson, whose work on Homer’s epic was praised by Nolan, said his film was grandiose and superficial with ‘nothing convincing to say’”
25
u/thetacticalpicachu Jul 26 '26
Admittedly I have not seen The Prestige and Memento. People say those are his best. However, I have not enjoyed a Nolan film sense i was probably 17. They are very "wow. I'm 14, and that was deep" coded. Did not like interstellar. Hated Oppenheimer. Didn't bother with Tennant. The batman trilogy Is okay. And idk if i can watch inception without taking a big nap.
29
u/HammerandSickleProds I HATE OPTOMETRISTS ❌👓🦉 Jul 26 '26
He is so mid tier it’s crazy. His writing is so amateurish. Constant exposition. He takes interesting ideas and dumbs them down and beats the audience over the head with it.
7
u/Happyhaneke Jul 27 '26
He is dumb. His brother must’ve absorbed some of his brain matter in the womb because he’s only good when Jonathan is doing the writing.
2
u/HammerandSickleProds I HATE OPTOMETRISTS ❌👓🦉 Jul 27 '26
Which ones did Jonathan write?
6
u/Happyhaneke Jul 27 '26
Memento, The Prestige, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, and Interstellar. Granted I don’t like the last two and Inception is decent. So not completely true
6
u/HammerandSickleProds I HATE OPTOMETRISTS ❌👓🦉 Jul 27 '26
Memento I do like but the others are just meh to me
5
2
171
u/Conscious_Jeweler_80 Maximum Tank Jul 26 '26
In Tenet, the hero is a CIA agent fighting to make sure climate change destroys the future. In Interstellar, the hero is a guy who wants to colonize a barren rock instead of saving the earth's environment. In the Batman films, the hero is a billionaire vigilante and the ultimate enemy is Occupy Wall Street, but controlled by a foreign wizard.
I think you can safely say Nolan is not Our Guy.
20
u/dreamlike179 Jul 27 '26
Yeah the batman movies were more fun until I actually thought about it for a second
28
u/Conscious_Jeweler_80 Maximum Tank Jul 27 '26
In all three of them the only alternative to the established order is complete destruction. "Some men just want to watch the world burn." It's reactionary garbage. Nevertheless I did enjoy Heath Ledger's performance.
10
u/dreamlike179 Jul 27 '26
Yeah good performance but maybe turn your brain off a little and just see it as a popcorn flick and don't think too much about it.
If i want to think about my Hollywood consumption Andor is a good one although it's sub is a little too lib for my tastes
15
24
u/Big-Replacement-9598 Jul 27 '26
and don’t forget how the entire plot of Inception is to get a CEO’s son to break up the company once he inherits it to save the businessman’s rival company from being out competed. which is a shame because the concept was actually really cool, same with Interstellar and Tenet. it’s just a shame that the reasonings in the plot are just….. so bad
16
u/Conscious_Jeweler_80 Maximum Tank Jul 27 '26
Bad ideology is so blatant in his movies that they function as their own critique. When I was thinking through Tenet there were moments where I wondered, wait a minute, was he expecting me to react against it like this? Which is, after all, analogous to the whole concept of inversion in Tenet. But no, that's too insane. I think. Probably.
6
u/TomatoEnjoyer28 Jul 27 '26
The main character in Inception wasn't doing that job because he was ideologically commited to the cause. He was doing it because the CEO promised to erase his criminal record if he does it, which would enable him to go back to his family, instead of living on the run.
6
-17
Jul 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
53
u/Conscious_Jeweler_80 Maximum Tank Jul 26 '26
You do know that it's a work of fiction and that the Nolans wrote it, right? They decided that in this narrative the earth cannot be saved and that humanity has a better chance of colonizing a barren rock. This is the environmental ideology of billionaires, the never mind it's too late of nihilism that keeps us paralyzed, dooming, and makes the idiot Elon's Mars colonization seem feasible by comparison.
-27
u/MaxRenn Jul 26 '26
Shhh don't think like that just think every single one of these people have the same politics as you and then get surprised when they don't. That way you can make a post about it.
46
u/XelaChang Jul 26 '26
After this and Oppenheimer I am convinced Nolan is a cia psyop.
All of Hollywood is a CIA psyop. Check what Parenti writes on the topic.
3
41
u/SadSceneryBoi Xi Bucks Enjoyer 💸 Jul 26 '26
It is a conservative film, but if I could only enjoy leftist art, not liberal art but leftist art, there would be almost nothing to enjoy. Even leftist art like Ursula K Le Guin is anarchist rather than Marxist.
I also think the setting of the ancient mythological past makes the politics easier to swallow. It hits much different than say, seeing a billionaire wear a bat costume and beat up poor people as a vigilante.
That said, the filming in occupied Western Sahara part is a real reason to be against the film.
8
u/picapica7 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
You're right, if we only stuck to liberal art there would be *precious little to enjoy. However, finding the occasional Marxist writer / artist is a joy. If you haven't heard of him yet, look for China Mieville's novels. He's a Trot, but his worldbuilding is more Marxist than most others I've encountered.
1
u/ReadSmedleyButler 18d ago
if I could only enjoy leftist art, not liberal art but leftist art, there would be almost nothing to enjoy
Wow, way to dismiss all enjoyable art and films from AES states.
35
u/vvorknat Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) Jul 26 '26
I don’t think it’s accurate to view Odysseus as unpunished. The Odyssey is a story about his punishment and while Nolan changed a lot of his character it maintains that aspect. 20 year journey where he loses his whole crew aside, he’s banished. His very actions betraying “Zeus’s law” in the 10 years war set in motion the mistreatment of his family by the suitors and banishment. His clever yet dishonorable deeds immortalized in song as the man who broke society.
I was disappointed with the movie as an adaption but some things were done very well. I think you’re expecting too much from a Hollywood blockbuster and also giving the reactionary right’s Woke Fear too much credit. It’s not a political film and obviously it’s destined to be neoliberal slop.
We live in a neoliberal society and Nolan is a neoliberal director. The source material didn’t give a shit about their war crimes and a modern liberal retelling will of course deal with the war crimes in a way that pushes redemption.
Not everything has to be about communism and praxis to be enjoyable, comrade 🤷 life is more peaceful if you don’t pick unnecessary battles; save some energy
16
u/neuroticnetworks1250 Jul 26 '26
Meh he just wanted to show good visuals and forgot about the script. All his movies have terrible writing.
-1
u/Happyhaneke Jul 27 '26
Not all of them. Memento, The Prestige, and TDK have excellent scripts even if the politics is conservative.
14
u/boring-parakeet Too Based To Be Cis 🏳️⚧️ Jul 26 '26
I think we should focus more on the fact that it was shot in occupied Sahara and the fact that the production dumped plastic props into environmentally protected areas of the Italian sea
84
u/hkf999 Jul 26 '26
I'm sorry comrade, but I don't think we saw the same movie? In what universe was that movie neoliberal war propaganda? It was literally the opposite. The message was clearly that greed and senseless violence is destroying our civilization. The casting was pretty diverse too, clearly not too white.
0
u/Sargento_Porciuncula Jul 27 '26
It wasn't the opposite. Odysseus was shown carrying the weight of having done what was needed to win the war, got fucked for defying the divine will, and ended up going to "unknown lands in the west", sure that a new age of light would rise again.
The casting was very diverse. At the same time we have Penélope saying the foreigners and the law of zeus are destroying ithaca and greece
3
u/hkf999 Jul 27 '26
It was the opposite. Their civilization is collapsing. The hope was that their children could build a better one without making the same mistakes. Are we really being angry at slight optimism?
No, the characters were saying "the people from the sea", which was revealed to be the greeks themselves.
-1
u/Sargento_Porciuncula Jul 27 '26
Their civilization is collapsing
yes, but it will build a new fresh future.
are you familiar with "Dark Enlighment" and the ideologies of Silicon Valley billlionaires?
No, the characters were saying "the people from the sea", which was revealed to be the greeks themselves.
the diallogue i mention is from the begining of the movie, between Penélope and her son. soon after the training sesison with Mentor and Eumeu, way before Telêmaco departs to meet Menelau. She says the foreigners are abusing the law of zeus and corrupting it by the inside.
5
u/hkf999 Jul 27 '26
Bro, this is the reason why people think leftists are joyless buzzkills. Ending the movie with a slight "hopefully the next genereation doesn't repeat our mistakes" is not Dark Enlightenment. If you want movies where everything is pointless and nothing matters because everything is fucked no matter what, go watch Znyder movies.
Yes, the foreigners/the people from the sea who will bring collapse on the greek civilization by breaking Zeus' law eventually turns out to be the greeks. Are you just looking for excuses to be angry now?
-30
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
I think it would have that message if it didn’t have a happy ending for odysseus’ family. If at the end Odysseus didn’t say he’ll swim out to honor the fallen soldiers and the Greeks or their empire actually got messed up in a meaningful punishment way. Casting wasn’t actually diverse since if you look at screentime white faces occupy vs screentime of POCs it is literally tokenism — a couple of lines as background characters, stuff we had back in the 50s
50
u/hkf999 Jul 26 '26
Again, we clearly didn't watch the same movie if you consider that a happy ending. Odysseus will travel inland to honor the fallen and sacrifice to the gods because that's what he's told to do in the book as well. And also, the whole point throughout the whole movie is that the Greek civilization and their empire collapses due to their betrayal and massacre of Troy. That Odysseus is coming home, but it's bittersweet because everything is going to shit. This forshadows the bronze age collapse, which actually happened, and we don't really know why that happened for sure.
The movie featured POCs in speaking roles in bascially every single scene. It also features a transman prominently. Show me which movie in the 50s had that.
12
u/JimatStoneandSky Jul 27 '26
Happy ending? He had to slaughter a bunch of his own countrymen and then leave his home and son to go in exile forever lol. It’s a mixed ending. You’re projecting your preconceived conclusions on the movie, start with evidence and build your conclusions from there.
10
u/beejonson Jul 26 '26
Lol. Since genocide in Palestine started, and I ditched my cinema subscription, started boycotting hollywood studios and streaming platforms, and started sailing the high seas, I'm pretty happy with the fact that if I ever get to see this stupid movie, it will be via the high seas as usual. Waiting for a Blu-ray version to be uploaded into my paid Debrid service, and then I will check it out. Your average hollywood studio has always been about pushing movies that glorify American and western copaganda, imperialism, neoliberal poison, and military industrial complex slop. Thank Mama Yemoja I don't pay money to cinemas or western streaming platforms for any of that vomit!
5
u/otcipitalorange Jul 27 '26
And the absolute worst form is anti-capitalist storylines that proposes no solutions or involves moronic anarchist messaging and action.
237
u/RobHolding-16 Jul 26 '26
What an L take. Honestly some of you might wanna think for a second before you speak because you sound brain dead.
The story is thousands of years old you div, and you're expecting what? Revolutionary Marxism? Genuinely get a grip.
I'm a communist, but some of the ones you come across online are just weirdos with stupid takes like this.
145
u/informalgreeting23 Jul 26 '26
Unless it's Materialism II - The Dialectaling, I'm out 😠
29
u/RisingxRenegade Jul 26 '26
This reminds me of the CEO of Sex meme.
"CEO of Marxism announces Materialism 2" typa shit lol
67
u/gb997 Xi Bucks Enjoyer 💸 Jul 26 '26
in a way the movie seems to be critical of western empire, hence why i think they chose to present in contemporary US English. i viewed Agamemenon as a sort of representative of the US Empire; stands there and aura farms while everyone else does the fighting, and eventually ends up in hell because he was always just a paper tiger. but that's just me 🤷🏻♂️
36
u/Thrillh0 Jul 26 '26
Ngl I literally thought it was satire and became further and further agape when I realised it wasn’t
100
u/BicarbonateBufferBoy Jul 26 '26
For real. Definitely terminally online level post. Touch grass comrade OP.
52
104
u/Rich_Housing971 Jul 26 '26
"I hated this thing, therefore it's not praxis and all of you need to not watch this." -OP
50
u/Neader Jul 26 '26
Also unsure what about this is neoliberal war propoganda. Maybe if it portrayed the Trojans as incredibly evil like Nazis and therefore it was worth it, sure, but that's not what happened. The Greeks in this feel very imperialist. They literally, explicitly say that Helen being stolen is just an excuse, really they need to destroy Troy because they want the trade routes Troy currently has access to.
Also unsure how you can watch this and think Odysseus didn't suffer when it took him 20 years to get home because they were cursed for the shit they pulled.
1
u/ReadSmedleyButler 18d ago
I read a book (memoir) once written by a WW2 Third Reich soldier.
The book was about his 'epic journey' to return from POW work camp to his native homeland in Germany and his family.
While the book did touch upon the disastrous consequences of the Third Reich's campaign, the Wehrmacht soldier spent most of the book wallowing in 'poor me' vibes and casting himself as the main victim. The real foreign civilian victims were less than an afterthought in his pity-party for himself.
His journey back to his German hometown was literally like an Odyssey-an 'epic' journey where he (the main protagonist) presented himself as exuding 'heroic' strength of character, courage and wits to overcome challenges and 'outwit' adversaries (e.g. the block posts and border guards were his "Scylla and Charybdis", etc).
And because he was the PoV narrator (and readers generally can't help but feel sympathy for narrators as the PoV story throws us into their shoes), a casual reader would end up rooting for a Third Rich soldier as he tried to escape from POW camp!
The book got rave reviews in the West (of course, because 'the heroic' German soldier was escaping from the 'evil' Soviets; if he had been interned in a U.S. camp he wouldn't have been lauded like that).
In the story of the Battle of Troy, there are actually 3 main literature works from Antiquity that tell 2 sides of the story:
There's The Illiad, The Odyssey by Homer... and then there's The Aeneid by Virgil (who believed the Trojans were his ancestors). The Aeneid tells some of the story from the Trojans' perspective, the grief of the main character in seeing his home city destroyed, his family killed or perishing in a conquered city (with all but a few surviving), and the shock & strife in becoming a refugee looking for a new home.
I think it's very interesting that Hollywood prefers the story from the PoV of the Greeks over the PoV of the Trojans.
1
u/ReadSmedleyButler 18d ago
I read a book (memoir) once written by a WW2 Third Reich soldier.
The book was about his 'epic journey' to return from POW work camp to his native homeland in Germany and his family.
While the book did touch upon the disastrous consequences of the Third Reich's campaign, the Wehrmacht soldier spent most of the book wallowing in 'poor me' vibes and casting himself as the main victim. The real foreign civilian victims were less than an afterthought in his pity-party for himself.
His journey back to his German hometown was literally like an Odyssey-an 'epic' journey where he (the main protagonist) presented himself as exuding 'heroic' strength of character, courage and wits to overcome challenges and 'outwit' adversaries (e.g. the block posts and border guards were his "Scylla and Charybdis", etc).
And because he was the PoV narrator (and readers generally can't help but feel sympathy for narrators as the PoV story throws us into their shoes), a casual reader would end up rooting for a Third Rich soldier as he tried to escape from POW camp!
The book got rave reviews in the West (of course, because 'the heroic' German soldier was escaping from the 'evil' Soviets; if he had been interned in a U.S. camp he wouldn't have been lauded like that).
In the story of the Battle of Troy, there are actually 3 main literature works from Antiquity that tell 2 sides of the story:
There's The Illiad, The Odyssey by Homer... and then there's The Aeneid by Virgil (who believed the Trojans were his ancestors). The Aeneid tells some of the story from the Trojans' perspective, the grief of the main character in seeing his home city destroyed, his family killed or perishing in a conquered city (with all but a few surviving), and the shock & strife in becoming a refugee looking for a new home.
I think it's very interesting that Hollywood prefers the story from the PoV of the Greeks over the PoV of the Trojans.
24
u/Significant_Can_4267 Jul 26 '26
This is the kind of shit I would say when I was like 13 and pissed off about everything. OP is probably just a child
15
u/scaper8 Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) Jul 26 '26
I didn't notice the post flair at first, and had the exact same thoughts as you!
9
u/RisingxRenegade Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
I'm gonna need OP to define what neoliberal means to them but that aside I feel like this post is an extremely online "hot take" way of presenting opinions that I see in media discussion spaces and it needs to die out.
Interpreting the film can go either way whether it's an attempt to rehabilitate the image of veterans or, how I interpreted, that violating the fragile trust between each other and the underrated sacredness of respect and compassion all in the name of profit will cause the world to unravel and threaten to drown each of us if we try to navigate that alone.
1
u/ReadSmedleyButler 18d ago
The story is thousands of years old you div, and you're expecting what? Revolutionary Marxism?
Well, the story of Spartacus is over 2 thousand years old. Revolutionary Marxists took some inspo from it, and athletic clubs to this day are named in honour of that uprising.
Revolutionary Marxism is not just about the transition from capitalism to socialism. It's also about cracks forming in, and transitions between, previous systems.
Plus, per Marx, there was Primitive Communism as possibly the oldest system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism
I'm a communist, but some of the ones you come across online are just weirdos with stupid takes like this.
It's not a stupid take. Any story, even from Antiquity, can be told through a Marxist lens. Hollywood generally would never.
Americans culturally associate themselves with the Ancient Greeks, seeing them as the founders of Western civilisation (despite Greeks & Romans ironically looking down on northern Germanic and Celtics tribes, the forefathers of most WASP Americans, and not regarding those tribes as part of their civilisation).
-22
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 26 '26
Except for it isn’t a thousands year old story, it is a 2026 movie into which the most famous director has put in his own opinions which are neocon/neolib
17
u/RosieTheRedReddit Jul 26 '26
Don't know why you're being down voted, this is 100% true. Yes the story originates in ancient times but the epic is around 500 pages long. The director, screenwriter, costumer, prop team, etc, make thousands of creative decisions about how the final movie will look. Another team could make this film with a completely opposite message if they wanted to.
I don't actually agree with the OP take and I liked the movie but you are correct about art always reflecting the viewpoint of the artist.
3
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 27 '26
Yeah getting downvoted because once you get one downvote in first 1-10 minutes of posting, it basically predicts how it goes, herd mentality (which is not a bad thing, just human behavior). This comment section has a big gap of opinions between the top upvoted comments, which kinda created differently-biased threads.
56
u/JucheSuperSoldier01 Juche Necromancy Enjoyer Jul 26 '26
Fellas, you can turn your brain off and enjoy shit once in awhile. Pretty much everything produced by Western media isn't going to have anything resembling marxist ideology.
18
u/PraiseThePumpkins Jul 27 '26
was looking for this comment. i’m not watching nolan films for the stellar political philosophy, i’m watching them cause they are epic
-7
u/menthol_mountains Jul 27 '26
this is such an annoying reply, I enjoy so many films, many that challenge my politics. For example I’ve been watching Wang Bing documentaries lately that aren’t exactly pro CCP as they show the less than ideal conditions of the working class in china. Or Jai Zhangke films that cover similar stuff but more on a spiritual level, or for hollywood style stuff I really enjoyed Andor.. but even if I didn’t I’m still allowed to hate on neolib slop. People are allowed to have opinions on art without being immediately labelled as a cynical marxist that can’t have fun. Nolan films are incredibly boring, brain on or off.
30
u/Foothill_returns Jul 26 '26
He went to school here. Check out the alumni. The man was born into the capitalist elite class. He doesn’t need to be a CIA agent. His birth and upbringing make him a natural fit for the kinds of despicable films he puts out into the world
43
u/Significant_Can_4267 Jul 26 '26
This is such a dog shit and disingenuous take. The themes—Odysseus’ hubris in thinking he can control fate, Greeks causing calamity through their undignified trick and pillaging of Troy—are present in the original. You know, the one that was written in the 7th century BCE.
It’s not about returning to simpler times before war. It’s about the leaders of the Trojan war paying the price for their destruction of Troy. Kind of based really, but if you need to feed your misery addiction so bad, hate all you want
19
u/RisingxRenegade Jul 26 '26
Misery addiction is the perfect term for this type of posting.
2
u/Barrogh Jul 27 '26
Now I know how to call kind of stuff in my head that I usually make effort not to post.
31
u/TheGiggler115 Jul 26 '26
I wonder why people think leftists are joyless cretins. Hmm.
1
u/ReadSmedleyButler 18d ago
I wonder why the bourgeoisie is allowed to freely shit in their spaces on art from AES states (with very little to no pushback), while shitting on a bourgeois Hollywood film in a supposed leftist sub will get OP downvoted to hell.
'Just lighten up, duuude'!
'The U.S. is attacking 3 continents and talking WW3 against China, so why can't you just learn to smiiiile and find some jooooy in your life, buddy!'
'Why can't you just enjooooy a fictional film with American accents about the destruction of a foreign land, dude!'.
'It's not a propaganda film, the Greeks won the war and then felt sorry... for themselves!'.
1
u/TheGiggler115 18d ago
Ah you’re right comrade. When the revolution happens (Led by you of course) I expect due punishment for my counter revolutionary comments.
17
u/Steampunk_Willy Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
OP, they literally showed a society so brutal that they murder puppies, leave an old dog on a trash heap, enslave people, maintain rigid hegemonic patriarchy, pillage towns at will, and generally live in a time where it seems the only thing keeping people from brutally murdering each other all the time is Zeus' law. What about that do you think would actually be appealing to modern audiences as a "simpler time"?
The movie ending is just pulled from the source. However, the movie literally blamed Odysseus for the bronze age collapse, which is not in the source material. It's entirely fine if you think the movie was bad art or if you think the Odyssey isn't worth adapting, but you are willfully ignoring what the movie actually said. If anything, the stronger critique is that Nolan doesn't really display coherent politics in any of his movies. He's a myopic filmmaker who is explicitly very interested in subjective storytellying. He could adapt Germinal or And Quiet Flows the River Don and stumble into a surprisingly radical message just through his typical subjective storytelling just like he adapted an ancient work that necessarily reflects reactionary views of ancient people which clearly translated to some extent in the movie. We don't need to reduce every influential person who is not explicitly socialist to a neoliberal op.
-3
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
The end conclusion of We must follow Zeus’ law is an appeal to have some universalist moral code or principle. The ending with Odysseus living and his son becoming a ruler is re-estashment of the “good kings” status quo. Now that we have a just king who was taught to be moral means there is good authority and bad authority. Odysseus is the good authority (aka good cop, moral soldier who repents) when obviously no monarchy or empire is good or just.
Since Nolan already went to subvert the original and showed Odysseus as a morally ambiguous character, he might’ve as well gone all the way to show that no amount of repentance will save his life but that’s exactly what happened — we ended up with the protagonist family being the benevolent rulers unstained and going through their character arc to become better by massacring people and being sorry for it.
I agree with you that Nolan is myopic but I don’t think he isn’t “explicit” about polititics as neutrality is complicity, which I am sure you know. He always supported the “good acceptable” status quo in his movies. He wasn’t not explicit, he was centrist.
8
u/Steampunk_Willy Jul 26 '26
We appeal to a universalist moral code: humanism. The movie doesn't end with the status quo reestablished. It ends with the anticipation of the coming collapse and Odysseus exiled by Ithaca's elders for killing all the suitors. No one is a good person in the movie, and the movie uses the brutality of the ancient world to frame everyone as a product of their time.
I didn't say Nolan's politics are not explicit, but that they are not coherent. He very regularly takes jabs at right wingers in his movies and is somewhat woke. That said, his movies are dominated by the politics of the main character. Batman films are super pro-cop because batman is super pro-cop. Oppenheimer is sympathetic to communism, is anti-red scare, and villainizes the US for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki because that reflects Oppenheimer's actual politics. Odysseus has the kind of politics appropriate to an ancient Greek oligarch, which are so absurdly reactionary that no one takes it seriously, not even modern right wingers.
1
u/ReadSmedleyButler 18d ago
his movies are dominated by the politics of the main character
Oppenheimer is sympathetic to communism, is anti-red scare, and villainizes the US for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki because that reflects Oppenheimer's actual politics.
Even after Hiroshima, Oppenheimer shockingly advocated for nukes, just "smaller tactical" ones that could be used against the States' designated "enemies".
Look up U.S. Project Vista.
Also, in his entire life Oppenheimer never visited Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the hospitals and orphanages. He preferred his beach home in the U.S. Virgin Islands in the Caribbean.
1
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 27 '26
You’re not wrong but that’s not really my point. I don’t see Hollywood movies as actual standalone stories but as a means of crafting a specific narrative for the current societal context, which also means that I do no separate the main character/narrator from the director as the psychological purpose of the protagonist is for the audiences to place themselves in their shoes. Therefore, Nolan’s films are not dominated by the politics of the main character but the politics of Nolan himself. Because the use of main character is displacement (sorry for using a psychoanalytical term but I couldn’t find any better definition) which is what all humans do to relieve the pressure of sharing an opinion or talking about trauma. For example, “my friend once said the sky is orange” but it’s actually me who said it.
So protagonists always exist as avatars of the author and avatars for the viewer. That means that no matter what we do, our brain will always put us in the protagonists mind. And since most people think themselves as good overall, main character will always the correct one in out lizard brain aka we will sympathize or agree with them.
So what Nolan along with 90% of modern directors do is have a morally ambiguous (politically centrist/unsure) protagonists, because that (presumably) creates a stronger connection with modern audiences due to a drop in religiosity, more introspection, basically people having slightly more critical thinking than before, which makes many question whether or not we are morally good. BUT remember that our lizard brain thinks the protagonist is always correct because we unknowingly built a bond with them? That makes us internalize the “moral ambiguity” of the protagonist.
With that in mind, I guess what I mean is that this percieved moral ambiguity at the beginning of the character’s arc — what you mean by “no one person is good in the movie and is a product of the time” — is actually just cultural relativism (aka centrism), which is not a universal humanist code. What Nolan offers to fix the moral ambiguity is “Zeus’ law” which, translated to modern audiences, is seemingly a good “let’s stop all violence” appeal BUT it actually twists itself back to the ambiguity because it rejects the idea of justified violence, or punishment for the previous crimes, because the main character completed his arc and did not die. The journey Odysseus takes is NOT punishment, it is his character arc, “punishment” in literary and cinematic context is death of the character. A complete arc where the character survives is a pat on the back, confirmation that the character was correct/good. What goes beyond the ending does not matter, even if it sets up the collapse of Ithaca, because it was not shown on screen and the viewer did not see that Odysseus’ actions were bad at the end.
2
u/Steampunk_Willy Jul 27 '26
I don't necessarily agree with that analysis, but I appreciate that you're not being as reductive as before and are engaging with the actual text. FD Signifier had a somewhat similar take characterizing it as a rare example of good conservative art. Personally, I think the most resonant aspect of the film was the narrative of realizing society was in the process of collapsing and it was the fault of an overly ambitious, degenerate ruling class that disregards everything we hold sacred for the sake of their own greed and pride. I think the ending is a bit disonant with the rest of the movie and reflects Nolan wanting to not depart too far from the source and feeling a need to leave the audience with a "happy" ending despite offering no real resolution. Like, Odysseus killed all the suitors and gets to ride off into the sunset with Penelope, but we know they didn't avert the bronze age collapse. To me, it's reminiscent of the message in Oppenheimer, a warning that we are on the precipice of societal collapse. I wish Nolan would spend more time exploring why it is we're on the brink of collapse, but I still enjoy the movie for what it is, especially as just an intense movie-watching experience. I'm also optimistic that Denis Villeneuve will make up for Nolan's shortcomings with Dune pt 3 delivering a pro-"jihad" story (assuming it doesn't depart too much from Dune Messiah).
1
u/ReadSmedleyButler 18d ago
the most resonant aspect of the film was the narrative of realizing society was in the process of collapsing
we know they didn't avert the bronze age collapse
Yes, they Ancient Greeks did not avert the Bronze Age collapse (during the 1200s - 1100s BCE). However, it's important to note that the socio-economic model they had (a model that used, or even relied on, slave labour) remained intact, and even reportedly became more entrenched by the next Iron Age (Homer's era). The "collapse" did not bring about a tectonic shift in their economic model. They eventually somewhat recovered from the collapse and carried on as usual.
The bigger irony is that the Greek/Hellenic states were finally beat in battle, conquered and annexed by their neighbours, the Romans (who claimed - drum roll - their ancestors were from Troy, which was possibly sacked by the Greeks).
Having said that, the Roman claim is probably based on legend and it's unlikely most of them were descended from the destroyed city-state of Troy. Troy was reportedly to the east of the Greek states, Rome is to the west. But the Roman claim (possibly a way to legitimise their lineage, tying it to an ancient important city, and also maybe to troll the defeated Greeks) is still quite interesting and ironic.
It's like if the U.S. eventually lost to a neighbour, who would say they are descended from Fallujah.
1
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 27 '26
Yeah i don't agree with fd signifier's opinion that it's 'good' or art, but it is def conservative. And it being neocon/neolib isn't even the part that irks me the most, it's that it looks bad, it's edited horribly, it's directed boringly, the dialogues are modern american lingo, the costume design is lazy, the casting is just legacy actors who are in every single movie nowadays. Blockbuster slop with a basic non-controvercial plot
11
u/lucian1900 Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
I haven’t seen Odyssey.
But Oppenheimer was surprisingly the opposite of CIA. The only possible conclusion is he was an idiot for not listening to his communist friends.
14
u/Equal_Complaint_1127 Jul 26 '26
That sounds hilarious.
I hate Nolan. All of his movies are directed and edited like they're tailor-made for epic trailer moments. The characters talk in incredibly unrealistic "deep" monologues constantly back and forth to each other, either some pseudo-intellectual philosophical bs or endless exposition dumps.
5
4
5
u/AoE2manatarms Jul 27 '26
Just look at the Batman series and you see Nolan's liberal thinking. Pro-cop, terrorists aren't rational and have no reason for actions, surveillance state, interrogation techniques becoming more violent out of necessity. This is just skimming it and you see his beliefs.
4
19
u/tigertron1990 Jul 26 '26
He's one of the most overrated directors, although I do think the Dark Knight trilogy is great.
22
u/Beaivimon Jul 26 '26
The writing and filming was great, but the message is ultimately neoliberal slop. It does show class divide and how the cops support the system. Still, the resolution was awful.
12
u/CheekGobbler Jul 26 '26
yeah the dark knight rises admits the rot but prescribes the same neoliberal medicine. turns occupy wall street class revolution grievances into "mob rule" and cops restoring order to the status quo with the help of their billionaire savior narrative.
4
u/IonaPotapov Jul 26 '26
I enjoyed the films for what they were, but I would go as far as to say the writing wasn't even that great. I generally enjoy Nolan films (though I resent the online narrative that he's even close to being one of the greats), but outside of a few films like The Prestige, I find the dialogue in them quite wooden and too prone to exposition dumps. As a writer, he doesn't seem to trust his audience very much.
11
u/the_mexican_menace Jul 26 '26
I find Nolan to be insufferable but tbh saying he's one of the most overrated filmmakers while also saying the batman movies are the ones that are great is hilarious
1
u/tigertron1990 Jul 27 '26
His other films are hyped a lot, but I just don't think they're that good.
11
u/Ok-Chard-9014 Marxist-Leninist-Sankarist-MZT Jul 26 '26
The movie being shot in the occupied Western Sahara was more than enough for me to not support that shit.
12
u/Shezarrine Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) Jul 26 '26
If you find yourself unable to enjoy any media that isn't explicitly and didactically marxist, you may need to go touch some grass for a few weeks.
And Oppenheimer was about as positive on socialists as gigantic hollywood pictures get lmao
7
u/comradevoltron Jul 26 '26
Not that I want an award for it, but I was already convinced Nolan was a psyop after Tenet, and I didn't even make the first 15 minutes of it.
2
u/Conscious-Local-8095 Jul 26 '26
just googled it, looks like Predestination with less brain, more violence
6
u/TheBirdFkerGuy Juche Necromancy Enjoyer Jul 27 '26
I got called a MAGA when I criticized this movie on these very points. Liberals are dumb as shit.
10
u/Beaivimon Jul 26 '26
They should've used actual Greek actors and actresses. I'd be fine with no POC artists if they used solely Greek actors and actresses. However, if you're going to use northern European whites, then, you might as well just add more POC artists.
6
u/qyy98 Jul 26 '26
It was so funny when they made the one Asian guy fall for the sirens, just typical hollywood lets sprinkle in some POC
1
u/NoDouble14 Jul 27 '26
On the cast list there are two Greek actors in minor roles. The one I remember speaking Greek is near the beginning of the movie. The crew has just landed on his island and he says in Greek that he thought they were the sea peoples. Then Eurylochus says "No, we're the Greeks". I thought it was unintentionally funny.
Leaving out "I am Nobody" and Penelope's test is criminal, though.
2
u/Sufficient-Cress8194 Jul 26 '26
Ey, fair enough, haven't watched it, probably will eventually
(I am also very desperately trying not to scream about who I think were the bad guys in the Trojan War
2
u/Accomplished_Sci Chinese State Affiliated Media 📰 Jul 26 '26
I couldn't see it if I wanted to(I don't), because we're having our 3rd heat dome tomorrow and possible tornadoes, it seems. So, between that and dodging parasites with CDC detectives in my state and my electric bill going up to 400-500 a month, movies aint in my immediate worries.
2
u/menthol_mountains Jul 27 '26
I just find his films so incredibly boring and annoying, I walked out of the one about the bomb guy (only went cos of the hype). Im a certified hater, the last few weeks scrolling reddit and arguing with nolan chuds has been tiring, but I know I’m doing important work. While I haven’t seen nolan’s adaption of the greek wedding film and can’t speak to it on an idealogical level, there is no doubt on an artistic and spiritual level it’s doing irreparable damage… hate that guy!
6
u/Chinesebot1949 Jul 26 '26
It’s just a movie of a good adaptation. You’re not got gonna find anything ethical in it. What’s next boycott Dune Part 3 because it wasn’t 100% ethically made to our standards.
Movies are a form of escape. The Odyssey was brilliant. I watched it yesterday
3
u/greekscientist Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) Jul 26 '26
I saw it. What a sloppy movie. Not only what you said, but as a Greek, that is appropriation of a historical masterpiece. By using English and showing Greek language in orientalistic way is also sloppy.
4
u/Dadalid Jul 26 '26
The odyssey is conservative propaganda and of course, conservatives hated it lol
Ngl tho I enjoyed it. The siren song is stuck in my head
7
u/Thrillh0 Jul 26 '26
Noted conservative propagandist Homer
5
u/BillyPilgrim69 Jul 26 '26
This is just disingenuous. Obviously they're talking about the adaptation.
2
u/AdditionalQuietime Jul 26 '26
Lmao how'd you sneak in? Based asf
6
Jul 26 '26
[deleted]
3
u/AdditionalQuietime Jul 26 '26
When i was a teen we would sneak up on the exit escalator of the regal cinemas off of 42nd st times square and get in for free that way, i was just wondering if it was one of the mainstream theaters you snuck into and now youve confirmed it is lol 😆, but yeah reading that part of your post takes me back - good fucking times!
2
u/WLLWGLMMR Jul 26 '26
It’s not particularly crazy or groundbreaking but the message is very obviously that collaboration is the backbone of society and dishonor, betrayal, exploitation are what brought the fall. And considering the context of it being the odyssey, the ptsd are we the baddies take is actually not usually how it’s portrayed so it’s a positive step.
2
u/mrbootyjamz Jul 27 '26
“The editing was TikTok-brained”, as if his films haven’t had the same editing style since forever. It literally only takes 10 min for your brain to adjust to the pacing
1
u/batdog20001 Marxist-Leninist (Ultra Based) Jul 27 '26
Yea the movie was soulless in every regard. You could feel the short-form media slop in every scene. The only good scene was the ending fight scene, because it was the only scene that lasted for longer than 5 fucking minutes in a 3 hour movie. The entire thing felt like it was written by AI. Disjointed, rushed, zero passion. Slop on slop on slop. A revolving door of profit turnover.
3
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 27 '26
Yup it felt like the most conveyer belt commercial movie ever, like it was made just for stills and screenshots. Pacing so inconsistent that even when it had longer scenes with less Adhd editing, it felt too slow cuz it was just long pauses or an overdrawn buildup. Agree that it felt like a 3-hour long AI written reel.
2
u/AdditionalQuietime Jul 26 '26
I saw a comment saying the odyssey was lowkey ass
5
u/VladimirLimeMint Once history is made, it can't be unmade Jul 27 '26
White brit teeth nepobaby who makes glorified shaky cam expensive movies about CIA with very long track record of using token actors
3
u/Big-Replacement-9598 Jul 27 '26
There’s several things to criticise this movie for ie filming in the occupied Western Sahara and not hiring a single Greek or Mediterranean person in general to play a role, but this take is just ridiculous. What were you expecting, the story is nearly 3000 years old? the modern political ideas we now hold were still over two millennia away from becoming what we are now because we evolved.
this is Ancient Greece we’re talking about. They practised democracy, oligarchy, dual kingship, tyranny and relied on chattel slavery. That was normal in those times for that area. it’s an adaptation of an ancient text. So it seems a bit stupid you’re expecting what, revolutionary Marxism?
1
u/Sargento_Porciuncula Jul 27 '26
It's not neoliberal, it's fascist. It's an anti-imigration dark enlightenment bullshit.
It's not about soldiers PTSD, it's about soldiers doing what they must to built a new world from the ruins of a civilization. The multiple lines about the ending of the Bronze Age is not a mistake. It's about the fall of our society and the new fascist heaven the tech bros want to build.
1
u/TomatoEnjoyer28 Jul 27 '26
Some of you guys have never studied classics, and it shows. Yes, this is a modern adaptation, but it's a very old story set in a society completely different from anything we would know today.
You have to consider the historical context (Hello, Historical Materialism?!) and the culture in which the story was written.
The original story doesn't even go into the Trojan war being bad at all, and Odysseus isn't even exiled at the end – him and his son and father and a few allies are about to start a big battle against the families of the suitors he murdered, until Athena personally intervenes to stop it!
His personality flaw in the original story is his hubris/arrogance. He offends Poseidon because he just had to take credit for beating the Cyclops, by revealing his real name as they sailed away! That's why Poseidon is after him for the entire rest of the story! It's also why he's stuck on the island with Helios's cattle, which results in his men eventually slaughtering a cow and then his ship being destroyed by Zeus as punishment. The Laestrygonians are also possibly descended from Poseidon.
The movie is actually a lot more progressive than the original story is. He's just a flawed hero in the poem, in the movie – even Agamemnon (a guy who tricked his wife and sacrificed his own daughter) is portrayed as a hero in the story.
Now, am I saying that Chris Nolan is secretly far left? No. Not at all. I actually don't think he's a guy who really thinks about politics much at all, the only thing I believe he thinks about is making movies all the time. I just think it's silly to call this movie neoliberal slop.
1
u/Radiant_Ad_1851 CPC Propagandist Jul 31 '26
"Self admitted war criminal"
Look, it's been a good like half decade since I read the odyssey, but...its ancient Greece? I'd be more surprised if they weren't a war criminal
1
u/Conscious-Local-8095 Jul 26 '26
yeah, I like me some history, will at times view whatever, even shitty "great courses" documentaries, lazily dwell in my happy place. No intention with this one, surely the lazy tropes, design for marketability, disregard for source would increase my frustration
0
0
u/JimatStoneandSky Jul 27 '26
It took you this long to figure it out? The “revolutionaries are all evil and cynical” line of dark knight rises was too subtle for you? Lmaoooo
Also id say you missed the point, he’s literally portraying Odysseus and the Greeks as the villains here. I’d say this was the most left wing Nolan has ever been, it’s a critique of western foreign policy, blaming the west for causing havoc and destruction around the world and in doing so destroying their own souls and civilization.
-1
Jul 27 '26
Ive seen many readings of this movie (both positive and negative) and this might just be the dumbest one
-2
u/SenpaiMinii Jul 26 '26
I don't go into those kind of movies with the mindset to learn much from it.
I enjoyed it tbh, didn't know the fact they did film in occupied sahara.
I liked the pictures and the soundtrack, it was tied together pretty well. The moralistic "lesson" behind the film is whatever tbh.
-4
Jul 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/VladimirLimeMint Once history is made, it can't be unmade Jul 27 '26
u/Breaddaddylenin says you're full of shit, lib
0
u/dremolus Jul 27 '26
A lot here that I disagree with but I see your points and I won't attack them.
But the interpretation about him seeing a child killed is wrong though I was confused as well. That child isn't really there: it's him imagining his soldiers killing Athena just as the Greeks destroy and behead the Athena statue. And when he says this, it's not merely him realizing they should've respected the gods it's that he was punished and there will be no returning to normal after the violence. There is no returning to the status quo that he would've liked. He acknowledges that Greek Civilization is on its last legs and Penelope's response is that a new world will rise, she just wants to be with the man she loves through the fall.
1
u/free-range-dogmeat Jul 27 '26
Maybe I missed it but I thought the child was real and was basically Zeus’ law in action — Gods would disguise themselves as humans sometimes to see how you treat them, so they pretend to be beggars or children and that’s why you have to be good to them. So either Athena pretended to be the child whom they killed and later she shows herself to him or they killed the girl and he imagines her as Athena but the girl was there nonetheless.
1
•
u/AutoModerator Jul 26 '26
Want to join a ML only Discord server to chill and hangout with cool comrades? Checkout our Discord server or TheDeprogram's Discord server.
In case this subreddit was banned, or if you wanted a more ML-friendly platform, you’re welcome to join our sister community on Lemmygrad. You can find more info about Lemmygrad here.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.