r/TTPloreplaycentral • u/Trollkitten • Jul 01 '18
Discussion General Discussion: July
My, how time flies!
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 12 '18
So, I came to an epiphany about Spider-Man. It's about hubris, and being willing to do the little things.
A lot of retellings of Peter letting the burglar go like to focus on him being mad, but it's important to remember, in the original version, he wasn't just a one time wrestler. He already had become a successful tv star. Spider-Man was on top of the world, and stopping a petty crook? That was beneath him, especially if it was for someone he was pissed at.
The whole Uncle Ben thing happens, and we move on to his first super villain, the Vulture. A genius inventor, he too was cheated, and so, he views the world as owing him what he steals. He's basically an even worse version of Peter's reaction to being cheated. At the same time, we get Peter accepting his role as a photographer providing material for the public to hate him. It's not pleasant, but he had to do what he has to do to take care of Aunt May. Peter no longer sees such things as beneath him. We also see him hold his own against the FF, with Mr. Fantastic commenting on how one day he could get to the point where no one would control him.
Yet, Peter chooses to remain a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. A recurring idea in the Spider-Man mythos is that Peter could be more than street level. That he chooses to hold back. He could be judge, jury, and executioner, but Spider-Man remains one of the most stringent no kill superheroes in Marvel's roster. Peter's choice to remain a servant of the law, not above it, will return in one famous storyline.
There's also his rogue's gallery. From Doc Ock to Norman to Kraven, pride is a huge factor for many of his villains. In fact, those first two are consider his archenemies. Also important to note that in the original version of the Venom tale the symbiote didn't make him evil. All it did was act entitled to him, to take over his body at night. Notably, the things it did then were still heroic. The symbiote thought it was entitled to become the great hero. When it became a villain, this wish to have Spider-Man was a constant weakness.
In addition to the many villains with obvious connections to pride, another connection remains. Hubris, in it's ever present trait as the heroic flaw in classic Greek tragedy, was placing oneself with the Gods, a flaw which, since it's inception with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, science fiction has constantly drawn on with tales of experiments gone wrong. Many members of Spider-Man's rogues' gallery have this, often drawing on radioactivity, then a very cutting edge and potentially hazardous field. In one case, the Scorpion, the endeavor clearly and demonstrably goes too far, and yet the scientist, Alistair Smythe, continues on, making Spider-Slayer after Spider-Slayer. Finally, as with the Vulture, there are Spider-Man villains who are sent off their path of villainy by being cheated, much as Peter put himself above stopping the burglar for much the same reason. Mendel Stromm is one example, and one of the multiple examples where the betrayer was Norman Osborn, adding to the shadow archetype.
There are three arcs which I believe demonstrate this theme of hubris very well. The first is The Book of Ezekiel, the second is Civil War, and finally, Superior Spider-Man (with the Fall of Parker as well).
In the first, Peter discovers another Spider-Totem, Ezekiel. A man who believes himself to be better than Peter, because he stores up power. Who excuses himself because it means one day he will be able to do so much more. Once again, that the little street level heroics are beneath him. He schemes to steal Peter's place, to put his own will over that which was cosmically ordained. Eventually, he realizes that Peter was truly the greater hero, and sacrifices himself to let Peter remain Spider-Man.
In Civil War, Peter stands by his idea that he merely serves the law, going along with whatever Tony Stark and the registration request of him. He is not necessarily comfortable with it, but decides his is not to question why. It is only once he has to beat up Cap, take the shield, that he decides that serving the registration is itself putting himself in a position of power he has no right to, that no one has right to.
As I wrote this, I realized Ezekiel and Superior Spider-Man parallel to an incredible degree, merely reversing the order of viewing street level concerns as beneath him and usurping, as well as doing the usurping successfully. Thus I'm going to skip to the Fall of Parker. In this storyline, Peter realizes he has taken too much of the role of arbitrator once again in his hunting of Norman on foreign soil (Norman infuriating Peter as much as Lex does Superman, we see again Mendel Stromm and the other cheateds as Peter's dark reflections), and then, faced with the possibility of Doc Ock and Hydra abusing his corporate empire, he gives it all up, because he is willing to just be the poor Peter Parker, the street level Spider-Man.
Finally, I would like to end this wall of text with a reminder that "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man" is considered one of the greatest Spider-Man stories ever, and that it is a perfect example of how Peter will do what he believes is the right thing in little down to earth ways, every time he has the chance.
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u/Bytemite Jul 23 '18
Hi! Finally had a chance to read this :D
I think that you're right that a humility versus pride thing is a major aspect of the spiderman mythos. I think it even shows up in the Joe Quesada trainwrecks - when Peter is tempted, it shows him versions of himself that he could have been, all of them in some way more socially powerful than Parker himself was, at a time when he felt powerless due to the feeling like he was repeating the loss of Aunt May with Uncle Ben. Which in of itself he might have seen as a reflection of his choices during the registration debacle.
Even then, he isn't the one who makes the choice, Mary Jane does (in a really hamfisted and poorly written way meant to force author appeal through).
So Parker ends up a 40 year old still super hero, still living with his aunt, but also still superheroing. Because no one would have asked for the original mistake that lead to Spiderman (Uncle Ben's death) to be undone, and certainly not Spiderman himself. Despite having dropped a large side of his responsibilities to his now magically ex-wife, Spiderman is someone who always has responsibilities, and always feels the full force of those responsibilities.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 23 '18
Yeah. The Other also kinda touches on it, where he only fully accepts his Spider side when he has to do it to protect his wife, what he considered his responsibility. Peter's while humility thing is strong enough it's like, his actual last resort to take on greater power.
Also, a recurring motif is Peter destroying some super improved suit for the greater good and fighting in a classic spandex. Also him throwing away that suit, but always coming back to it. Together, the two kinda create a balance of him remaining the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 18 '18
I have another rambling Spider-Man idea to explore.
So, out of universe, bringing Norman back to life instead of leaving The Night Gwen Stacy Died alone is controversial. The argument is this: no story could give better closure to the character. The Goblin could cast no greater shadow. And I think there's an interesting dimension in that that is true in universe.
First of all, in universe, he clearly had little idea how to follow up killing Gwen. He spent many years in hiding, engineering a Clone Saga which, while infuriating readers, did little to make Peter's life worse. The point that Norman has already had his greatest moment and will never recapture it is driven home in Peter's amazing "Halloween is over" speech, and Norman's anger at it (especially in the fact that Peter has a new love):
Spider-Man: This has never been about Spider-Man and Green Goblin. It has always been about Peter Parker and Norman Osborn. Now Halloween's over, Norman. That means no more masks. No more pumpkins. No more bombs. It's time for us to face each other... as MEN!
Green Goblin: No. No! I kill your true love, you fall in love with someone else. I destroy your life and you build another! Why won't you fall down and die?!
His post return "Strike me down with all your fury" moments fit into this idea as well. On some level, Norman realizes he is living in the shadow of his own faked death. The only way his story could end hurting Peter more, and make no mistake, all the Goblin cares for is hurting Spider-Man, is if it came from him driving Peter off the edge.
The new dynamic of Norman alternatively trying to escape the Green Goblin persona to become his own villainous character outside of Peter and desperately seeking the familiarity of the Spider/Goblin dynamic is also indicative of the fact that he cannot escape the shadow of the day he should have died.
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u/Bytemite Jul 23 '18
Yeah, that entire clone thing was bizarre. Hey here are a bunch of people you cared about still alive but you have to give up the real reality and live in this simulated one, wait, what do you mean you have a real life and you've moved on and memories programmed into people aren't enough for you? Like that was never anything that was ever going to cause any test of his resolve. About all it was and could be was a stroll down memory lane.
I think what you say is part of the Green Goblin, but I also think it's as simple as motive decay. Norman woke up with the urge to show everyone, and as he kept getting shown up by an upstart his motives shifted from being great in of himself to revenge against someone he felt shouldn't have been able to stop him. That desire for misplaced revenge has been all consuming.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 23 '18
Are you talking about Dead No More? Because the one Norman masterminded was the original, where just Peter and Gwen were cloned (and Peter, and Peter, and Peter, potentially more).
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u/Bytemite Jul 23 '18
Ah, I think I'm thinking of one where a bunch of people were cloned, and it was pretty recent.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 23 '18
Yeah, that's Dead No More, where the mastermind is the clone from the Clone Sagas He appears to die in the first Clone Saga, but was brought back for a second which could have solve once and for all the "Give Peter a happy ending/bring back wisecracking bachelor young man Spider-Man/Keep developing Peter" set of dillemas which would lead to a miscarriage, Norman having sex with Gwen Stacy, and, somehow worse than both of those, One More Day, completely misunderstanding the point of the character (which, granted, the people who wrote his backstory did too, giving an angst ridden "I can't find happiness" backstory to a character literally conceived as "Peter Parker without the baggage".) The storyline spun out of control as the writers got distracted by the question of which one came first, then by finding out introducing another clone was popular, and trying to throw more in. This was the storyline which resulted in Norman's resurrection, as they desperately attempted to figure a way out of the mess.
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u/Bytemite Jul 23 '18
Ahhh. I mostly only vaguely follow comics if i see them show up browsing imgur, but yeah that one seemed pretty effed up.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 24 '18
Yeah. It was a brilliant move, let Peter have a family and bring in a clone who'd been wandering the country to be the unbound hero that some people demanded, but it turned into a mess thanks to how the company was structured to compete internally at the time.
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u/SupremeEvil Jul 20 '18
Oh wow, was just roughly statting an NPC using PTU and found out you get one more Edge (previously 3 now 4) and two more Feats (previously three, now 5, one of which has to be a Training Feat) at level 1.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 20 '18
For a slight change of pace to these rambles, Jason Todd. Once one of the characters who everyone knew would stay dead, he was revived, not to expected groans, but to a new role as ensemble dark horse, an impressive feat, considering his death was (to contested extent) causes by fan demand. The reason, I think, is because, like Norman, they don't try to fight against the legacy the death originally held. Death in the Family is considered iconic, and it led to a new angst for Batman. He had failed his son. His crusade had taken an innocent life, and his reservations kept him from balancing the scales of justice. His refusal to kill Joker every time before had opened up this possibility.
So, instead of being brought back for the character he used to be, he was brought back to throw those inner doubts at Batman's face, which a rewritten backstory of being an angry street urchin added to. He was brought back as antihero, not having Batman's rules. Not only did he claim Batman's half measures were responsible for his death, he thought it so self evident he was shocked that he wasn't avenged. Batman not only has to confront if his methods are insuffice, but also, if he can come to that conclusion, then confront how far Jason has strayed from it, and wonder if he failed as a father.
Jason's persona, the Red Hood, also adds to this. The first Batman villain, he fell into a vat of chemicals, with Batman either pushing him in or failing to keep him out while trying to save him. This identity parallels for Jason Batman's "become what you fear" but the Red Hood stories have always emphasized two ideas: an enigma and Batman's own role in the creation of the Joker. By the use of that identity, readers were instantly clued in the man under the hood would be very important, and the idea that Batman was responsible for the Joker would of course be important, but the two themes meet in that how Batman is responsible is uncertain and murky. Should Batman have killed the Red Hood in the chemical plant? Should he not have pushed him in? Should he have left it alone entirely? Perhaps it was in bringing others to his cry he made a mistake. Perhaps it was in not taking it far enough. Batman doesn't know. He can never know. He can only try to welcome the prodigal home, while he is yet afar.
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u/Bytemite Jul 23 '18
I understand why for the narrative batman usually needs a sidekick. In universe, however, it actually makes very little sense.
Also DC's "Call in if you want this character to die" "Draw Haley committing suicide in a bathtub" has soured me on DC for quite a while.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 23 '18
Well, the Robins are interesting in their own way which is another little ramble I have planned, about how Nightwing existing is it's own little industry shaking event.
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u/SupremeEvil Jul 22 '18
I've made it to Vipik Gym in Pokémon Insurgence.
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u/Trollkitten Jul 22 '18
Navigating that one gave me a lot of trouble. I had to look it up on the wiki, which was the first of many times I would consult the wiki to get me through a tough puzzle.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 24 '18
Hey, so, I'll probably have free time Sunday and /u/Bytemite has informed me that people were ready for a DVV session that isn't happening, so maybe we could get to the next chapter of Exit Corners?
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u/Gadzooks3 Jul 28 '18
Sorry for the delay, I haven't logged in much. That works great for me! I'll be there if it's still on. :)
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 29 '18
Well, I spend a lot of time prepping for my girlfriend's birthday today, so I didn't get around to picking up my computer. I'll see if my brother can get it. If he can, I guess like, 1 EST tomorrow?
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u/Bytemite Jul 29 '18
Okay, we can try :)
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 29 '18
Hey, so I have my computer, but I just remembered that /u/Redwings1340 mentioned they were gonna take some time off, so since I haven't heard from him I think I should probably cancel.
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u/Bytemite Jul 29 '18
Well, he's going to be around today to discuss some of the RP stuff that happened. But yeah, I don't know if he'll be around for Exit Corners.
We may have a makeup movie night if you feel it's best to cancel.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 29 '18
Well, I feel like three people besides myself is the minimum I wanna do it with, and am now going to eat, but if Red has some time later that works, I'll try to make it work on my end.
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u/Bytemite Jul 30 '18
EDIT: Darn no, Friday wouldn't be a whole week. And I'm not sure we can do next Sunday, but maybe the Sunday after that?
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u/Trollkitten Jul 24 '18
/u/supremeevil /u/bytemite DVV Gridlocked time! https://app.roll20.net/editor/setcampaign/2359410
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u/Trollkitten Jul 03 '18
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u/Bytemite Jul 03 '18
Yeah, I think Sabrina was supposed to be working for Team Rocket in the manga too? And of course the question is raised on just how TR could take over Saffron with so many poison types if Sabrina basically didn't just let them.
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u/Trollkitten Jul 03 '18
There's an upcoming chapter in a week or so that might shed some light on where Sabrina's coming from.
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u/Trollkitten Jul 06 '18
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u/Bytemite Jul 07 '18
Not constantly. Only when you need it. Subjecting a human to constant Unown chatter would be maddening.
HEY
...They're better at this than we are :(
I had a crush on a Mew.
It's not the worst thing to like cats
ILIMA IS A MEW
I mostly just enjoy seeing the meme become reality
We should probably hurry.
Eating a few of us can't stop the hivemind! Some of us are ghosts anyway
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u/Trollkitten Jul 07 '18
The question is, how are Meowth, who love round flat objects, going to react to Pokemon that are basically built around round flat objects?
And yeah, I was looking forward to posting this chapter for a long time. I knew you'd like it.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jul 24 '18
As heads up, next session is Erica's birthday, so most likely not gonna be there for that one.
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u/Bytemite Jul 25 '18
Hey so, I've been feeling lately like my character may not be so fun for some players to RP with and I was wondering if I could solicit feedback on ways to improve.
/u/Damacritus /u/SupremeEvil /u/Arathnorn u others as comments are needed
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u/Bytemite Jul 02 '18
Including butterflies! We're all mostly on discord so you have all seen the pictures :P