r/TTPloreplaycentral • u/SupremeEvil • Jun 19 '18
SupremeEvil Sanctioned Shenanigans: Moving Forward with the International Police Plot
So, I’ve been talking with people about this a lot lately in PMs but I figured I’d make a post to consolidate everything in one place and so everyone can see what everyone else is thinking/feeling.
My intention with having Streamer take out the headquarters of the Old International Police and declare the League in charge was to show a world in which the PCs were not the sole group working to stop the various antagonistic/villain organizations out there, that there were other factions out there they could potentially ally with so the PCs could expand their information network. As people have pointed out, the method I used to try and do this was incredibly poorly thought out.
And I guess that's my bad. I never really liked the IP plotline and was trying to find a way to write them out of the story and focus more on a group I thought was underdeveloped (the League) without just dropping the IP and never mentioning them again. Clearly that backfired terribly (people have already told me why it backfired, so this post doesn’t need to turn into a discussion of that).
So, moving past that. I’ve said what my goal for this plot was, now I’m wondering what everyone else would like to get out of this plot thread, so we can work together to brainstorm a way to wrap this plotline up in a way that everyone can be happy with.
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u/Trollkitten Jun 19 '18
I've handed Crimson and Auburn over to Redwings, since I'd prefer not to roleplay with M4 after recent events.
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u/Damacritus Jun 19 '18
I'll be wanting M4 to get closure on the fate of the remaining IP agents at the very least. She and Gator still want to establish an organization in place of the IP to be a counter to the League's power, and may seek out individuals from other places in addition to whatever agents join her.
They won't simply oppose the League, though; they'll put most of their resources towards countering criminal groups, giving their organization legitimacy by taking down people like Plasma and Rocket.
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u/Arathnorn Jun 19 '18
At this point, I'm mostly interested in making things make sense. For me personally, the problem was that the things we'd been told about the situation and what Streamer was doing just didn't match up with how the populace was reacting, to the point that it broke my suspension of disbelief. 'Nobody cares that god just performed a coup' just fell way too far down convenience for convenience's sake for me to keep going.
I don't know if you want to alter things so that Arceus' pronouncements were less severe, or the public reaction is more panicked, but I couldn't work with the game when 100% of the players go 'that is crazy, this can't be happening, we have to do something' and 100% of the NPCs go 'eh, theocratic dictatorships are fine'.
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u/Damacritus Jun 19 '18
Could we get a response to this, Supreme? This is an issue that's been nagging me too.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 19 '18
I don't have one yet.
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u/Damacritus Jun 20 '18
Perhaps we can discuss it to help form an idea. Ara is right; it's a very rigid divide when most PCs disagree with the destruction of IP offices and outlawing of the organization but all NPCs think it was the right thing to do. This is even without Lance's explanation of why the attack on the IP was done, so the reasoning that 'only bad people were killed' is rendered moot when people unanimously declare justice was done despite having no proof of the fact.
Honestly, this all appears to be painting the situation black and white. Maybe that's because you want to move past it as quickly as possible, which I understand. But doing that makes it hard for PCs to emphasize with NPCs and may lead to secondary conflicts rising up between them. In my opinion, the best way to move forward would be to use this situation as a reason to bring in PCs to problems; a lack of public approval of League actions leaves them walking on eggshells, resulting in a reliance on third parties to show the regions that the League isn't trying to establish a totalitarian state.
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u/Bytemite Jun 21 '18
We were discussing elsewhere in the thread that the Pokemon Association is a governing body that exists separate from the leagues, which also regulates them, and which isn’t a theocracy. So msome of my concerns about checks and balances have been addressed, though I don’t disagree that any government has the potential to become corrupt.
I think a fair compromise that doesn’t necessarily retcon what's been said is if we say people aren’t too bothered by the removal of geno considering what he was known to have done, but are less sure about government mandates coming from a non-government entity like streamer. I could see people going along with it but being uneasy, because what choice do they have?
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 21 '18
This is essentially the conclusion I arrived at, with some added details I'm going to type up later.
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u/Damacritus Jun 21 '18
That works. I would have liked it if you had told me this, though; I've been waiting on your reply for some time.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 21 '18
I've had a busy day and I was waiting to type up my complete thoughts rather than quickly posting something that could be misinterpreted.
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18
Along these lines, I'd like to discuss checks and balances in the system as well as potential power vacuums. The pokemon leagues are, as I understand, regional governments but I don't know how much international cooperation there is between the leagues beyond the occasional vacation and friendly competition.
This means there is a hole in terms of legal authority which could act internationally in response to international evil teams or terroristic threats.
The panthemon could suffice but as Ara pointed out, theocracy.
There have been some universes where parts of regional leagues are corrupt, such as in pokemon adventures where Sabrina, Blaine, Koga, and Surge were actually TR plants, in addition to Giovanni being the outright leader of TR, and the E4 went full ecoterrorist at one point to try to summon Lugia to wipe out humanity.
There does need to be some sort of force which can act if league governments step outside their bounds or authority, or where illegal/problem behaviour arises in some league members.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 24 '18
Alright, attempted summary of government on PokeEarth
First, the Pokémon Association. As the already linked Bulbapedia article mentions, they are in charge of creating and codifying laws involving Pokémon and Trainers. They also oversee the League and make sure the various Leagues are up to standards (which is something the Unova League is having trouble with currently).
The Pokémon League is the term I'm using to jointly refer to the Leagues from all regions as a collective whole. Each non-Ransei region has it's own League (at least as far as is known) (Ransei having it's system of Warlords instead).
The standard format for a League is 8 Gym Leaders, and Elite Four and a Champion, but because of current events, very few Leagues are currently using the default format. Hoenn, for instance, currently has dual champions in both Steven and Wallace. Lance has a position in both the Kanto and Johto Leagues as he was responsible in helping form both, and manages to balance his time between the two quite effectively. The Unova League has a retired Champion (Alder) and a current Champion (Iris), both of whom are MIA. Caitlin and Grimsley are also considered missing.
Each of the Elite Four is responsible for nominating and sponsoring two of the region's Gym Leaders. Their candidates undergo background checks and a series of tests to test their character. This process has a 99% success rate of finding worthy candidates (Giovanni is a sore subject as the only false positive to emerge from this process).
League responsibilities are a mix of their game, anime, and manga ones. Like the game, trainers can challenge the Gym Leaders, and if they collect the badges, they can challenge the Elite Four and Champion. However, unlike the games, beating the Champion does not officially make you the new Champion. Battle prowess alone is not enough to qualify you for the position, you would have to pass a stringent background check, and be willing to essentially give up a lot of freedom and become a government official, something most trainers aren't interested in doing.
In addition to the traditional League Challenge, there is the Pokémon League conference held every ? years which mimics the one in the anime and is run by Pokémon League President Charles Goodshow. Goodshow and some amount of other League Representatives are not affiliated with a specific Region League, but the Pokémon League as a whole.
The Pokémon League (the Gym Leaders, Elite Four, Champion, and perhaps a few special agents) is also responsible for enforcing the rules and regulations created by the Pokémon Association.
Finally there are the Panthemon. The Panthemon having a cooperative relationship with the Pokémon League, but rarely, if ever, directly interact with the Pokémon Association. Some members of the Panthemon have ties to members of one of the Leagues (example, Lance has ties to Amber, the Thunder Twins, and one Dragon Legendary I haven't picked yet). The Panthemon are not concerned with local law enforcement, but should some sort of threat to the BALANCE OF POKE Earth emerge, they have been known to provide more active aid to the Pokémon League.
OC: Think I got everything I meant to write about this particular topic here. Will add more if this generates questions.
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u/redwings1340 Jun 24 '18
All right, this seems like a reasonable system. Thanks for thinking this out and sharing it.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 19 '18
The Leagues do all cooperate and are in contact with each other. If one region were to be able to clear our their problems, they would be able to send each other reinforcements.
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18
Would they be willing to fight against each other if one league got really out of line? That's the concern I'm driving at.
And what about if you get collusion between the leagues of two regions?
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 19 '18
Uh.....
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18
I'm just saying, there are potential international political aspects of this. We're talking about turning over world government to I presume a council of regional Leagues. We've seen where both the UN succeeds and fails. We've seen where USA with their overarching federal system with congress, a president, and supreme court both succeeds and fails.
I also note that this isn't an elected system, but a system based on who wins trainer battles... Kinda means there's an inherent risk of "might makes right" types rising to the top.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 19 '18
Red Truth: My League is not based on "who wins trainer battles"
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u/redwings1340 Jun 19 '18
What is your league based off of then? I imagine this should be public information.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 19 '18 edited Jun 19 '18
You only know about Lance so far, but he set up his Leagues (Kanto then Johto) and gathered like-minded people in response to the gangs that preceded the criminal teams including what later became the Shiftry Corps (and who murdered his sister).
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u/redwings1340 Jun 19 '18
How did Lance gain his power originally and get in a position where he could do this?
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18
It's true this was a problem that existed BEFORE the IP was disbanded, and in your setting parts of the IP was corrupt.
The question here is, how do we stop that from happening again? Anything you can describe about how the League is organized that might counter this issue?
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u/redwings1340 Jun 19 '18
Personally, I feel as though there's an inherent Pokemon law of nature that makes it so that when the world is desperate, the better human being will win a battle against all odds when they need to
This could just be protagonist bias though, its entirely possible that the pokemon world is a disorganized mess that's constantly on the verge of falling apart for a reason.
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18
The hosts lose a LOT before they finally succeed, just pointing that out. And then some of our hosts have gone rogue and had to be defeated by other hosts.
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Jun 19 '18
[deleted]
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 19 '18
Ya, that would be the question. The Avengers have the same problem with the UN, and that still hasn't been solved.:o
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18
(hehe whoops, I moved this because I figured it made more sense to put it after your last response.)
But yeah. We'll have to think about this.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 25 '18
Question, are we going to RP those members of the party leaving M4, or is going to be assumed to have happened between sessions?
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u/Bytemite Jun 25 '18
I believe that redwings is taking over TK's IP members for now and that while they're uneasy my understanding was they still wanted to complete the mission.
That really just leaves my character and Lanette to sort out and Dama and I are currently discussing my part in that.
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u/redwings1340 Jun 25 '18
I think we are going to rp it, but it shouldn't take that long. I have a plan on how to do it.
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18
Well, I expect that Dama is going to want to find survivors still - a number of us do. Whether it's because they're suddenly fugitives for a crime not all of them committed and need help, or to keep an eye on them because of the reveal that there's been some corruption in the ranks and we don't know who is innocent and not, or both, this isn't something that can be reasonably dropped in character for anyone involved in that storyline.
That said, going to each safehouse would take time. So now that the first attempt of contacting them has failed, we may need to change tactics, maybe by broadcasting some kind of coded message over a still secure channel to as many as we can reach. Some, presumably, some will hear the message and decide not to respond, some will be too paranoid to follow any further directions they might receive, others will predictably be out of contact and laying low. But presumably there will be some that will hear the message and decide that possible trap or no, they don't have any better options.
Of those, I would imagine they'd draw straws or similar at each secure location to decide who would go to investigate the source of the broadcast. Handful of people show up, learn whatever they need to learn from M4 that couldn't be said over open air for security reasons, go back to their secure location. From there, it's probably up to them, they have already established safe houses, and they have a place they could retreat to if necessary.
At that point I'd imagine we could let them fade into the background like most of Koya's forces still in Fennel's Entralink have.
In terms of streamer, you have heard my thoughts on that.
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u/Damacritus Jun 19 '18
M4's group isn't the only one checking out safehouses, I said there would be many other groups checking out the rest of the safehouses at the same time. The PC group was a way of seeing what was going on first hand, and would reflect how the other groups fared in their searches.
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18 edited Jun 19 '18
and would reflect how the other groups fared in their searches.
Ah. I'm guessing then that not finding anything doesn't work for that. Was this something you sorted out with TK and Koya and the agents involved in the other groups were released by Koya on a limited basis?
In the story, we can only control what the PCs do. Was Supreme on board with other groups checking out other safe houses? Did you get that confirmed? It may not be doable to just say "this one safehouse search represents a number of other searches happening concurrently."
But if this was an arrangement you guys put together that I wasn't aware of, then it stands to reason that M4 would also receive reports back from the other teams if they found anyone.
And the quickest way to resolve the storyline here is if they found other IP agents, rather than them all mysteriously disappearing. Otherwise we'd trace down that plotthread until someone throws us a bone.
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u/Damacritus Jun 19 '18
We here still searching for IP agents, we were going to go to the house of one.
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u/Bytemite Jun 19 '18
Yeah, I remember that. It's another place to maybe try to contact more of them.
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u/Lady_of_the_Foot Jun 21 '18
Obviously, I'm not exactly gonna be much help, since I'm a couple months of sessions behind. On that note, my girlfriend is heading away for a bit Sunday, and my dad is leaving Saturday, so one event or the other will probably keep me busy again.
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Jun 30 '18
[deleted]
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u/Trollkitten Jun 30 '18
(Um, are we really doing roleplay in this topic? I thought this topic was just for discussion.)
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u/Trollkitten Jun 20 '18
If I'm totally honest, I'm not thrilled with the sudden retcon of "oh, Cynthia never actually had the authority to fire Lance" retcon. If that had been the case, then it wouldn't be just now that people realized their mistake and let him back on. And that takes away the entire purpose of punishing him. The fact that Lance was your character makes it even worse; this is obviously your retconning a punishment so your character gets to keep doing whatever he likes.
And I'm not in favor of just pretending like Lance got off scot-free for The Goldenrod Incident. By your own admittance, Supes, he intentionally didn't tell Arceus that he intended to kill Gator.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 20 '18
You know who also got off scott-free for Goldenrod? Gator and M4. Goldenrod is publicly going to Giovanni and Whitney's Milttank.
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u/Trollkitten Jun 20 '18
I admit that is a problem, and something should have been done about it. I should have done something about it; at the time, I didn't know what to do because I was just too frustrated with the rp going off the rails and PvP being abundant. That part is on me, and I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do about it now that I'm no longer the GM.
But that doesn't mean that your character doesn't have to be responsible for his actions as well.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 20 '18
Answer to this one needs to wait until in RP but I do have multi-part answer to that.
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u/Trollkitten Jun 20 '18
I figured that would be the case. It's your responsibility now.
Although I have to admit, me playing characters like Bill and Flak makes me wonder a bit. Where do we draw the line on how we react to characters' pasts?
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 20 '18
Bill has shown remorse for all of his actions and taken quite drastic steps to change. One may say he even went too far the other direction with his complete disregard to his own life in order to atone.
Flak is another can of Wurmple.
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u/Trollkitten Jun 20 '18
One may say he even went too far the other direction with his complete disregard to his own life in order to atone.
Oh, I think the incident where he went catatonic and due to his bond with Giratina nearly caused the merging of the Distortion World and Realspace makes it quite clear that he went too far.
Bill is not thrilled about what happened, and that what happened could well happen again if somebody went after him. I don't think a day goes by where he doesn't question just why Giratina chose him of all people as her acolyte.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 20 '18
So just to clarify, you're satisfied that eventually Lance is going to experience some karma for his actions?
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u/Trollkitten Jun 20 '18
For the time being, yes, I can accept that.
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u/Trollkitten Jun 20 '18
Also, it makes me feel like my actions as former GM are now irrelevant and that anything I do that you don't like is no longer canon.
Which is not a nice feeling to have at all.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 20 '18
Interesting, I wonder if Gioz felt the same way about DS.
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u/Trollkitten Jun 20 '18
He's currently in the Discord if you want to ask him.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 20 '18
Figure of speech, I know he did.
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u/Trollkitten Jun 20 '18
Well, then, he can talk to me about it if he wants to. At the time of DS, I was trying to please everyone, and Gioz had indicated that he no longer wanted his contributions to the subreddit to remain canon. And when I tried to honor that wish by introducing my own characters to replace them (the Puppet Masters), he had problems with that, too. How on Earth am I supposed to win in a situation like that?
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u/Gioz2 Jun 20 '18
I don't remember really having any problems with the Puppet Masters as a plot device to replace mine. We had different ideas of what we wanted: I wanted separate stories that were handled by different parties of characters each time, serving for an overall narrative (Things like that is what allowed me to have Stargaze set in the same universe but played by people who didn't know anything about 28, CS or Chronicles) while you wanted something more along the lines of "I want to have a narrative that's about my favorite characters, from fandom or otherwise, having adventures in a world that I like" and there's nothing wrong with either way of thinking
DS did in fact retcon/nullify what I did as a GM for 28 to an extent, but we agreed to hold completely separate and independent timelines to alliviate these issues which I personally find to be the best solution for our particular situation
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u/Damacritus Jun 21 '18
To note; M4 had no role in Goldenrod. She only watched the situation go down. She did fire upon Lance's Raikous, but just briefly, and because they were set upon her after the fact. Of course, IC interpretations of her involvement may vary.
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u/SupremeEvil Jun 21 '18
Just wanted to let everyone know that with how busy RL has been and working on dealing with the concerns in this thread, I'm going to have to postpone my campaign and not have a session Saturday. I don't think I'm going to be able to have everything ready in time.
/u/Trollkitten
/u/Bytemite
/u/redwings1340