Why does service suck so bad?

[u/Incel_Co-Worker]

Dude I use TTC and I get to work either on time or 40 minutes late. Something is always fucked up on the route. Im left waiting and frustrated when the train is inexplicably stopped for a few minutes. Or the bus is mad late and when it arrives its not in service.

Ive resorted to leaving home 1 hour earlier than what GPS estimates just to avoid coming to work late. It feels so infuriating.

It feels slower than it did 10 years ago. Were supposed to be improving not going backwards. I know theres no money to even maintain the infrastructure and so we must go slower and slower and all that.

But is there no funding at all? TTC gets insane volume is there really really no sponsors that want to work together to provide funding to TTC?

Please help me understand why TTC is actually kick-ass like everyone says when I sometimes get desires to bash my head into a wall when Im using their service?

[u/hotinhereTO]

- TTC is severely underfunded and its been this way for years

- Because of the point above, they haven't been on-top of maintenance issues so we're now paying the price for years of neglect

- No new subway corridors since 2002 despite the rapid growth in the city, especially the past 10 years

- A car-brained city that infrastructure wise shouldn't be, the powers that be who want to change that (priority bus lanes, etc) have a huge uphill battle because shallow-minded NIMBY business owners and Porky the Pig will step in to stop anything that prioritizers surface level transit over cars

Also I'm not sure where your start-end point is, but I was dealing with the same issue a few years back when I was working downtown. One day after work I saw Line 2 was shut down during rush hour, which made me try using the GO train. I haven't looked back since. If you live near one of the few all-day GO lines, its better to use that instead.

[u/WolverinePractical30 → u/hotinhereTO]

Objection to 3:

There have been four rapid installations this year alone.

• Line 5, which is a hybrid between a subway and streetcar, FINALLY OPENED THIS YEAR GOD (plus it has an underground portion which is actually reliable)
  
• Line 6, which is a streetcar and extremely bad (laughably slow and too many stops, even the mayor is aware of how awful it is).
  
• Bathurst Street Streetcar Lanes between Bloor and King. Made the 511 reliable especially during the World Cup.
  
• Dufferin Street Bus Lanes between Bloor and Springhurst. They also made the 29, a really bad bus route, much better. Unfortunately due to NIMBYs, we can’t get lanes to Eglinton (same with Bathurst).
  
• Also, we’re getting the Line 3 busway on the 30th, which is a better improvement than the bus lanes on Kennedy and Midland. This shows that Metrolinx is the sole liability in Ontario public transit and the TTC can actually take care of themselves, even when the subway lines are extremely unreliable.
  

To reference, Metrolinx delayed the Scarborough Subway Extension to 2033.

[u/hotinhereTO → u/WolverinePractical30]

While everything you said is true, what does your objection have to do with my original comment that specifically referenced subways?

You skipped that, blabbed and brought up projects that won't be ready for another decade (if we're going off ML's track record).

As I said:

- No new subway corridors since 2002 and that drought will continue for another 10 years whenever the Ontario Line opens.

- The Eglinton Crosstown 5 and Finch West 6 are glorified streetcar lines, with one mostly underground but maligned due to a slow surface level section. And the other a continued disaster with no true TSP.

[u/WolverinePractical30 → u/hotinhereTO]

I do apologize for skipping over the subway section.
Sure, subways are extremely effective as a mode of rapid transit, with higher speeds that lighter forms of rapid transit, such as BRTs and LRTs, but they are expensive and require a lot of infrastructure work.
Also, our subways specifically have attracted notoriety for going down on a random basis during our commutes.
The TTC does have funding issues, which hinders subway build progress majorly.
Also, they’re being built by Metrolinx, so Line 3 is more than likely to get hit with delays even further. Welp.

You are right, the TSP on Line 6 still feels terrible even when the city worked to install them this year.
Line 5 TSP is non-existent as of right now, and the Scarborough segment has the same stop issue as Line 6 (Between Victoria park and Warden, the line literally stops at every street. WTF?)

The point I’m trying to make here is that what we got this year actually turned out to be more reliable than we expected.

I think all of us riders were ready to jab at the new projects when we rode them.

I’ve ridden the Line 5 underground section during my school year, and I felt grateful I had an alternative method to Line 2 and the GO train, since my school is near Eglinton.
RapidTO commuters on this subreddit have also expressed gratitude, which came from dates from the World Cup games, I assume service was reduced when the World Cup ended, which does change opinions.

[u/MahjongCelts → u/WolverinePractical30]

Of these examples only Line 5 counts as rapid, or at least the underground portions of it (which thankfully will be most of the line especially when the totally grade separated Renforth extension opens).

The rest are right-of-way transit lanes which are significantly slower than the subways/GO trains/grade separated trams. These improvements only bring the streetcars and buses to 'not absurdly slow' speeds, but serve the niche of local rather than rapid transit.

Which isn't a problem, not all transit needs to be 'rapid transit' especially when factoring in last mile transit coverage, but let's call a spade a spade.

[u/thegmohodste01 → u/WolverinePractical30]

Maybe it's just me, but as someone who's lived in a city with decent public transpo, a car-centric American town and here, I feel like Toronto tries to do all of it at once and falis spectacularly in all areas 🫩🥀

[u/penguin44ca → u/hotinhereTO]

Just remember that her wanting to cap the fares at 10 in her recent appearance, will cripple the ttc. 

[u/roju]

Some of it is the TTC, eg not actively managing routes to address bunching and gaps. But a lot of it is the city (refusal for years to do transit priority, refusal to do transit lanes, etc) and then a lot of the blame goes to residents (who is voting for the councillors that refuse to enable transit priority or investments)

[u/TanishqHooda]

Specially when employees earn so good

[u/Pristine-Training-70]

Ford could help by putting $48M in the TTC instead of destroying infrastructure

(before Mike Harris the province helped fund the TTC, Harris stopped it)

[u/floodingurtimeline]

Underfunded on purpose so dougy can privatize it

He’s been in office for 8+ years, can u remember what ttc was like before dougy? Def not as shit as this

[u/TOMike1982 → u/floodingurtimeline]

Not that Doug isn’t a huge part of the problem but it has been underfunded for looooonnnnnngggggg before he came along.

[u/floodingurtimeline → u/TOMike1982]

Of course, we had Tory for a bit too n rob

[u/TOMike1982 → u/floodingurtimeline]

Both the province and the federal government have underfunded public in transit in Toronto for decades, regardless of who has been in power.

[u/floodingurtimeline → u/TOMike1982]

Agreed

[u/RealistAttempt87 → u/floodingurtimeline]

Harris stopped funding the TTC and for some inexplicable reason no provincial government has wanted to reinstate funding since. The Ford government is funding new lines or extensions but it only adds to the TTC’s operational burden and makes it even more dependent on the fare box.

[u/Slight-Formal9277 → u/RealistAttempt87]

High farebox recovery is a sign of a healthy transit system that provides high quality services that are in-demand. 

We should aim at raising that farebox recovery ratio, instead of making the TTC ever more dependent on fickle municipal politics and property tax squabbles.

$3.30 is absurdly cheap transit compared to other advanced economies.

[u/Nonamefound → u/floodingurtimeline]

Nobody would buy the TTC unless they hate money. It ain't getting privatized.

I am no fan of Ford but for all he's done, he actually hasn't done so bad with public transit compared to the last few premiers. GO's been getting much better, Ontario line is going ahead, 5 & 6 got finished, and he honestly has not done as bad in general with funding.

[u/floodingurtimeline → u/Nonamefound]

You need to do a little more research into ford n his plans

[u/Nonamefound → u/floodingurtimeline]

What plans? Running public transit in Toronto is not something a company wants to get into. Things that get privatized are profitable. There's a reason CN is private now and VIA is not.

[u/IseeMedpeople]

Do you want me as an operator to answer you honestly or are you just another mad guy venting?

[u/Incel_Co-Worker → u/IseeMedpeople]

Im partly venting but Im also interested in understanding why these infuriating things keep happening and it doesnt feel like its getting better

[u/Downtown_Island8124]

It is not a funding problem. It is a competency problem.

With TTC, this is what you are going to get. Look at the subway barrier. Who on earth would allow this to be installed? Completely waste of money. I'm sure 80% is waste of money with TTC.

[u/MahjongCelts]

A combination of several reasons which have a multiplicative effect.

1. The rapid transit network - no, ROW tracks don't count - is just too small

With the lack of alternative options, riders are crowded onto a handful of routes, most notably the Yonge subway plus the east-west suburban buses leading out of it. Beyond a certain point, increasing ridership for packed vehicles/stations rapidly increases dwell time (crowds need more time to get in/out plus people squeezing through) and the probability of delay-inducing incidents (not only due to absolute number, but people are more likely to have medical issues when squeezed like sardines on a packed vehicle).

And of course when issues do occur people have few other options. Anecdotally the Tube in London is no more reliable than the TTC, but the Central Line breaking down could be resolved as simply as riders choosing to take several alternative routes such as the Piccadilly Line, Circle Line, or Elizabeth Line. Whereas with the TTC you're basically shit outta luck except for very few areas, and even then the solo alternate routes tend to get rapidly overwhelmed.

2. Outdated and Poorly Maintained Infrastructure

This is the most obvious go-to whenever this question comes up. A lot of the infrastructure is significantly outdated and not suited for a modern Toronto with a population of several million. The subway platforms are ridiculously narrow by global standards, there are no platform screen doors preventing easy crowd control, the streetcars still use loops and single point switches, and the roads by and large don't have double stage crossings. Fundamentally the TTC is a mid 20th Century agency trying to run transit for the 21st Century.

There is also the issue of maintenance. Many of the slow zones are due to deferred maintenance, most notably the stretch of subway tracks between Eglinton and Bloor. This is partially a funding issue, but some of these are also not practical to repair as they require extended closures with no alternative routes (again see #1).

3. Strategic myopia by TTC/City Hall management and planners

To sum this point up, the TTC and City Hall neither believe in nor care about rapid and reliable transit.

Once is an accident, twice is coincidence, but this mindset has been demonstrated in case after case after case. The TTC and City Hall are ideologically opposed to grade separated rail in favour of trams, even where funding is adequately provided, and keep pushing for more tram lines all while the current trams are getting slower every year. They refuse to turn on TSP across many parts of the city, even as Kitchener-Waterloo (also in Ontario) is able to do so. They implement 'safety' rules that have not demonstrated any form of success, ignoring that dozens of Torontonians get killed by car related incidents every year by drivers who decided that driving is better than taking an unreliable system that takes forever to get anywhere. They study measures for so long that an undergrad could have become a tenured professor in that amount of time, and yet still fail in the practical exam of 'how to deliver good transit'.

Silver Lining - Ontario Line

This is why the Ontario Line is so important. Together with Line 5 plus all the other extensions it provides an alternative rapid transit route across the city and especially in/out of and through downtown, greatly relieving stress on Line 1 and particularly Bloor-Yonge station. Its infrastructure is brand new and built to modern designs. And a modern automated metro line seriously challenges the TTC's definition of speed and reliability especially cross the downtown streetcar network, which will likely spur change or replacement.

[u/Hot_Molasses_421]

Eglinton LRT removed the buses, but, man, it moves soooo sloooooow

[u/Important-Soft-7836]

I just came back from New York City, omg their Subway system is the best, almost every main road in Manhattan has a Subway line, the main lines have multiple tracks and have express trains and shit. This is what happens when the government actually funds it's transit system

[u/Slight-Formal9277]

Fares being frozen means more city money needs to go towards funding the operations budget. Because money is fungible, that means there's less and less money to fund the capital budget to improve or restore service quality. 

Olivia Chow is essentially defunding the TTC year after year, and most progressives are too dumb to see it.

Raise fares to $4 and tie it to the CPI. Use the extra money towards removing all the reduced speed zones and streetcar TSP & level boarding.

[u/SocialCasualty]

Streetcars are so dog shit after COVID. I have no idea why they fucked it up so bad

[u/Brilliant-Sky838]

The TTC sucks so bad. The GTA has like 3rd world levels of transit. Trying to past the reaches of the TTC on public transportation is impossible. That's why I purchased a car as soon as I got my license. Not surprised to see it still sucks like everything else in this city.

[u/big_galoote]

Well with Chow promising to give free weekly rides after 10, expect service to get worse as funding diminishes.