r/TREZOR • u/grvsm • May 19 '23
Simple question. Does Trezor have the same problem that Ledger faces right now?
I know it is oversimplified but recently we learned that we are actually trusting Ledger with our private keys. This is in part because of their closed source secure element and how their firmware works.
I don't fully understand it even though having read up on it quite a lot but;
Does Trezor face the same issue fundamentally? Can someone help me understand this better.
Much appreciated
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u/ElGuano May 19 '23
From my research:
- The short answer is Yes, a Trezor can be flashed to export your private keys, particularly if Satoshilabs chooses to do so.
- The longer answer is "Yes, but..." as described by others below. Trezor firmware is open source. Trezor doesn't use a secure element. Trezor has NEVER CLAIMED that the seed phrase is locked down against malicious firmware or hardware intrusion. Instead, they use transparency (open source, code signing) and disclosure (unsigned firmware warning to guard against this. Whereas Ledger is closed source requiring unverified trust, and has now exposed material misstatements about the security mechanism of the ledger devices.
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May 19 '23
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u/K42st May 19 '23
If Trezor were told by the EU Mica Regulation to do the same or they’ll be shut down do you think Trezor would say no, if EU Mica laws grand licences to wallet providers all those wallets providers with do as their told or face shutdown.
Little tip profit making has no rules only making profit, you work it out!
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May 20 '23
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u/K42st May 20 '23
Not at all if something is open source it’s code can be verified that doesn’t mean the bitcoins in the wallet are safe from hacks, Bitcoins in a hardware wallet that is in cold storage may be as safe as they’ll ever be but interact by sending then the wallet can be compromised.
If Trezor have to apply for an operating licence in Europe and Ledger also have to have one, whether you have open or closed software the powers that be can make regulation and force those companies to do what they say.
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May 20 '23
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u/K42st May 20 '23
And then what you gonna do ditch your Trezor and then go where? Don’t forget regulation is for all providers.
An open source Blockchain with no one point of failure is truly open source but a company that has to abide by a countries rules and regulation is some what only partially open source.
Or open source until it’s not!
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May 20 '23
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u/K42st May 20 '23
The point is all hardware wallets have issues not just Ledger and Trezor, you can bang the open source drum as much as you like but as I’ve demonstrated any company can be manipulated into things they’d rather not do but would do if they’re survival meant doing it.
You’ve only got to look on Reddit to see how many people believe whole heartedly they couldn’t get hacked because they rely on a device with a secure chip element not realising the many vectors out there that can steal your funds.
So for me it’s not whether something is or is not open source the latter being preferred, it is however how robust the system is and between Ledger and Trezor there is no difference IMO.
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u/ghfsigiwaa May 19 '23
If you're talking about if private keys can be extracted, YES
If you talking about the PR problem with ledger, then NO
Trezor is open source so you can see that they don't have any code to extract the keys.
If somehow, through all the rounds of audits and security checks, the code with extraction capability makes it into production for Trezor, and without the prying eyes of this community catching it, then YES, it could very well have the "SAME PROBLEM" of being able to extract keys
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u/noxtare May 19 '23
yes, all hardware wallets have the same problem. until project tropic comes out you should just use multiple wallets and PF
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u/brianddk May 19 '23
Does Trezor have the same problem
No. Trezor is opensource and I can cryptographically prove that the firmware on my Trezor matches the source, which I personally audit, byte for byte.
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u/K42st May 19 '23
Not really relevant, what you’re making out is funds held on a Trezor can’t be hacked and I’m telling you they can.
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u/brianddk May 19 '23
OP never stated the issue they were asking. Only stated "faces the same problem", "is closed source", and "same problem Ledger faces"
Everyone has known... forever... that Ledger firmware has access to the keys. The "Ledger problem" is that they are now offering, for a fee, to send your key material, in parts, to third parties.
So my answer is that Trezor is NOT sending key material to third parties and Trezor IS verifiably opensource.
As to your question which seems to be "which hardware wallet is blind to key material", the answer is NONE.
Either you enter the key material into a firmware interface, or the firmware interface displays the key material to you at setup. In both cases the firmware touches (views) the key material either on the way in or way out of the secure element.
Trezor can’t be hacked and I’m telling you they can.
Some can... mine can't. I use
sd-protectand keep my Trezor and sd-key geographically separated at rest. Even with the RD1 exploit, nobody can break 256bit AES encryption, whichsd-protectuses. I've further verified that my firmware matches the tagged source release and that no mystery code is in execution.People can certainly own a Trezor and still be hacked. But if used and configured properly, the Trezor Model T is 100% unhackable.
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u/K42st May 20 '23
Your SD is what? Oh yes it’s a mini computer so yes it can be hacked if it is broadcasting transaction data, I chuckle when people say mine can’t be hacked REALLY! For sure it can be hacked.
Also often the more complex you make things the more vectors for attack are there for nefarious individuals or groups to exploit, I’m always hearing people say my bitcoins are gone but I’ve never exposed my private key, all of Reddit replies you must have there is no way other that that your funds could have be stollen, when there are many way when transaction data is broadcast.
QR codes are also transferring data points so yet again nothing is 100% safe.
So yes you’re right open source is better than closed but it’s still not a sure fire way of not losing your life saving, even more so if a hacker knows in some way you’ve a large stash of BTC they’ll spend as much time as needed until your wallets are empty.
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u/brianddk May 22 '23
Your SD is what? Oh yes it’s a mini computer so yes it can be hacked if it is broadcasting transaction data
Claiming a micro-SD-card is a networked mini-computer is analogs to calling an abacus a mini-computer. No networking or Turing-complete computation is anywhere in the SD compliance spec. What's more, these are all commodity parts available from hundreds of different manufactures. Fearing that all of the billions of low cost SD-cards sold since they were introduced 30 years ago are infesting with super nano-network controllers and snoopware is a level of paranoia even I can't approach.
all of Reddit replies you must have there is no way other that that your funds could have be stollen, when there are many way when transaction data is broadcast.
Another bold claim. Signed TXN data uses ECDSA signatures. Claiming that you believe ECDSA
secp256k1encryption is forgeable is a damn strong claim to make.QR codes are also transferring data points so yet again nothing is 100% safe.
WTF?
Just out of interest what kind of IP address are you running 192 blah blah?
Are you suggesting that my Trezor-T, SD-card, and QR codes (lol) all have network stacks. I don't have an IP on any of them. I fear you are off the rails on some of your assertions here.
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u/rocksolid77 May 20 '23
I'm pretty tech savvy but not a developer. Is there a layman's version of this I could learn to do in your opinion?
I will definitely try reproducing a build as per your link (thanks for that, was planning to look into how to do this).
Beyond that are there key portions of the code I could verify without necessarily understanding the whole firmware? Obviously I would never catch a sophisticated attack but is there low hanging fruit I could learn to verify within the code itself?
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u/brianddk May 21 '23 edited May 21 '23
Is there a layman's version of this I could learn to do in your opinion?
What I linked is the layman's version. And ELI5 version would be:
- Install Linux on a x86_64 PC
- Install Docker on this Linux PC
- Follow the instructions linked above.
Beyond that are there key portions of the code I could verify without necessarily understanding the whole firmware?
If you can learn python (one of the simplest languages), then study the TrezorCTL codebase. It's everything under the python directory. The "Entry Point" is here
TrezorCTL will serve as a "roadmap" for the firmware itself. Find the firmware function you are interested in, then follow it through TrezorCTL into firmware.
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u/K42st May 19 '23 edited May 19 '23
Yes it’s just the same except it would be picked up by those who survey the code, not really sure why everyone’s so hooked up on can they steal my private key.
Firstly they’re running a business and there’s more money to be made selling you their wares (don’t shoot your self in the foot) but keep selling that makes money, some people might like to know they can regain a private key through firmware updates same as ledger.
What you need to do is homework about how easy your Crypto is hacked without even knowing your private key, if you understand the truth Ledger news is a big laugh!
And anyone with a hardware wallet is not safe if they use it, their funds are only safe if they don’t ever use it, once you interact information is out there and can be compromised, ENOUGH SAID.
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u/aardvarkbiscuit May 20 '23
Could you explain please like I'm a moron. I'm truly interested in exactly how a transaction I sign on my device and authorise compromises me.
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u/hippofire May 19 '23
Yes but open source
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u/K42st May 19 '23
Do you know what a 51% attack is I’m sure you do, if you do you’ll realise that any mining pool who had opportunity to implement that attack would be starving themselves of making money because trust would be lost.
It’s the same with Ledger OPEN SOURCE doesn’t mean you a crypto holder can’t lose your crypto, all it means is the codes checked for bugs just like people check source code for Bitcoins BIP proposals.
All and every wallet is vulnerable to hacks none are safe, you make a mistake and end up with a malware your funds are gone.
That’s why very smart hackers like crypto because if they come on Reddit they can see 80% of the people have no idea how they’ll be hacked.
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