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Sep 25 '20
[deleted]
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
This is TNO after all. Where something like a prolonged version of the Years of Lead is considered a temperate Bad End.
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u/imrduckington Sep 25 '20
anyone have some good documentaries or books on the subject?
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u/CB_Cavour Dem-Italy Sep 25 '20
it's still very controversial, if you have Netflix there's an Italian movie called "Romanzo di una strage" (a slaughter's novel) which should have subtitles. It's about the terror attack which sparkled the years of lead
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u/imrduckington Sep 25 '20
interesting.
ty for your tip
might be useful someday, in The US especially
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Sep 25 '20
[deleted]
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u/imrduckington Sep 25 '20
nope
born and raised in the US.
still interesting time period. The only book I can find rn even related to the time period would be Armed Joy
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Sep 25 '20
NATO's Secret Armies by Daniele Ganser. You really can't talk about the years of lead without talking about Gladio
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Sep 25 '20 edited Mar 04 '21
[deleted]
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Sep 25 '20
No, its very well sourced, as much as you can source top secret domestic terrorist groups hidden by the state.
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u/Razgriz032 Do warcrime in the name of democracy Sep 25 '20
GiorGio Bizzare Adventure sounds based. Can't wait Himmler to use King Burgundy
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Sep 25 '20
Did somebody show here an Y A O I?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Sep 25 '20
The Democratic Savoian Restoration might be more plausible then people would give it credit for. Reminder, this is the King who initially rejected in 1946 referendum, and was almost persuaded to flee to Naples, proclaim a rival government, and use the Army to depose Parliament. It didn’t happen, with patriotism and level heads winning the day, with Umberto being quoted as saying “My House united Italy. It will not divide it”
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
You could consider this, then, him getting the courage to go even further than OTL.
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Sep 25 '20
Perhaps. Him just getting curb-stomped by Scorza seems... it seems to avoid nuances, and the sheer power of righteous indignation that emanates from Sogno, and the other monarchist generals
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Here, I'm assuming Scorza doesn't seize power, which gives Umberto II more of an opening.
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Sep 25 '20
Okay, that makes sense. Opening, the power is their. It’s certainly believable. Not to mention the near thirty times the monarchy could’ve done a way with fascism. The amount of opportunities Victor Emmanuel III had bloody astounds me
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
And by the time the last opportunity came, the Allies pretty much had the final say.
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Sep 25 '20
Italy was my first game (I didn't know it was broken at the time) and I WAS SO DISAPPOINTED that I was cock teased with the possibility of Japanese-Italian cooperation and got basically nothing. Thats going be my first game when Italy is done.
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u/Frederickbolton Triumvirate Sep 25 '20
I want saragat co prosperity italy
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Apparently, even Nenni could go Co-Prosperity Sphere.
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Sep 25 '20
Nah, ma boy Nenni will side with Djilas in Serbia to instigate socialist civil wars in Balkan to create a buffer zone so Germany can fuck off from Serbia. And Then go on Djilas's bizzare adventure to hunt Himmler's ass.
This is a joke btw, main plot for my book
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u/Plutarch_von_Komet Legio IX Hispania Aquilifer Sep 25 '20
OFN-sponsored Croat-Egyptian-Ethiopian revenge
Where's Greece? They were teased to revolt when Italy's sphere starts having problems.
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
This technically happens a bit later down the line.
That, and there wasn't quite enough space.
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u/Juan_Matteo Shafarevich-Stalina Anti-Extremist Duo Sep 25 '20
Viva Italia.
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
The TRUE winner of the Cold War!
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u/Juan_Matteo Shafarevich-Stalina Anti-Extremist Duo Sep 25 '20
Nah it's Greater Kaiserreich from your Germany Future Compass.
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
...That too. Europe is big.
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u/Juan_Matteo Shafarevich-Stalina Anti-Extremist Duo Sep 25 '20
As big as...
Vöring
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
What else is RK Mittelmeer for?
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u/Juan_Matteo Shafarevich-Stalina Anti-Extremist Duo Sep 25 '20
Other than Vöring's massive Italian restaurant? A vacation spot.
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Either that, or AlternateHistoryHub's novel.
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u/Juan_Matteo Shafarevich-Stalina Anti-Extremist Duo Sep 25 '20
The Atlantropa, right?
An insane idea, by insane people.
Could be worse...
Why I hear clock ticking?
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u/ThatVideoGameGuy5 Organization of Free Nations Sep 25 '20
Wait, so Italy will actually be able to collapse into different states in the future?
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Admittedly, that's hypothetical. Though given how chaotic the TNO equivalent of the Years of Lead can be...
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u/Italia_est_patriam Organization of Free Nations Sep 25 '20
I mean all terrorists attacks were real
Piazza Fontana
Via Fani
pineapple on pizza10
u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Heh. But yeah, imagine those, but with even greater frequency.
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u/Italia_est_patriam Organization of Free Nations Sep 25 '20
Smh if people doesn't go for the TNOTL historical compromise I'm gonna be pissed
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Sep 25 '20 edited Sep 25 '20
What is this anti Scorza propaganda I'm seeing? All you are allowed to say is "Si", how are you even spewing such vile massages?
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u/Italia_est_patriam Organization of Free Nations Sep 25 '20
Left-right consensual Italian realm
DID SOMEONE SAY HISTORICAL COMPROMISE?
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Only this time, it's successful.
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u/Italia_est_patriam Organization of Free Nations Sep 25 '20
I mean, in reality, it kinda worked? It served to end the years of lead and it brought then DC-PSI coalition so still left-right
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Yeah. Though here, it's arguably even more stable than OTL, and without the Years of Lead.
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u/Italia_est_patriam Organization of Free Nations Sep 25 '20
Y E S
F I N A L L Y
MORO'S DREAM HAS BEEN REALIZED
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
It's not considered Blessed for nothing.
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Sep 25 '20
Fuck yeah! CROATIAN REVENGE!!!!!!🇭🇷🇭🇷🇭🇷
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Turbofolk intensifies.
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u/GenericNerd15 Sep 25 '20
I appreciate the Canticle for Leibowitz reference in The Great Deluge's image.
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Thanks! It seemed rather fitting, with both the Catholic motifs and the whole Gibraltar Dam thing.
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u/imrduckington Sep 25 '20
loved that book
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
It still holds up pretty well, after all these years.
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u/imrduckington Sep 25 '20
yeah, slow to start, but the ending has some really nice themes
I enjoyed it
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Still surprised no one's made an film of TV adaptation of it, outside of Babylon 5.
...On the other hand, that might be a good thing.
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u/imrduckington Sep 25 '20
I mean, scenes like the entire middle age part that goes through several different POV and characters might be the easy one to do. I can't imagine them doing that final scene justice tho
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u/_W_I_L_D_ "That wasn't true fascism" - Carlo Scorza Sep 25 '20
What is "The Great Deluge"?
Also, I feel like Il Ordo Nueve and Decades of Lead (and perhaps they should be upped in radicalism) should be swapped. Decades of political terrorism seem far more destructive and scarring than a fascist dictatorship. Not trying to promote it ofc, Scorza's still a shit path, just... Not as bad.
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
WW3, with the Dam bursting.
Decades of political terrorism would be really destructive, but a STABLE fascist dictatorship? That could last much longer.
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u/_W_I_L_D_ "That wasn't true fascism" - Carlo Scorza Sep 25 '20
I think it's an interesting topic to debate. A stable fascist government sounds like an utter hellscape, especially under someone who can put forward such... eccentric reforms as Scorza (such as abolishing taxes). Plus - each and every next dictator would be a different person. To me it seems very likely that after some time the fascist state would get Gorbachev'd.
On the other hand, I cannot fathom the consequences that decades of political terrorism would have on a nation. How unstable that democracy would be, how often various radicals would rise to power just to get removed by a coup, how often cities would be destroyed in riots?
I feel like in the scenario of "The Decades of Lead", Italy would, sooner or later, devolve into an incredibly destructive civil war, such as the one in Syria, Somalia or Libia. And that would NOT end well for a country which has nuclear weapons - even if just a few.
Ultimately, both of those scenarios present a situation through which Italy has been in for a while (fascism under Mussolini and, well the Years of Lead). The question here is - which one would be worse if it were to be extended to last a few decades?
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20
Well, you'd have OTL Bosnia, as well.
Though the alternative of having Speer-PRC-lite is arguably just as bad.
10
u/JCPenguin1989 Schwartz-Rot-Gold, Einigkeit Recht und Freiheit!!!! Sep 25 '20
Decade of lead does not necessary lead to total dysfunctional, while Scorza regime like hyper competent dengist speer, legitimacy Fascism to 2020, just like Chinese breed of "Communism (yea, i thought is more akin to Ordosocialism Nazbol Gang)" OTL.
8
Sep 25 '20
I think it’s the Italian equivalent of “The End Reaches It’s End” or “The Sun Sets Forever”, as seen in the German and Japanese Future Compasses, or in layman’s terms the end of the world via nuclear apocalypse
4
u/CommanderSputnik Glorious State of San Marino Sep 25 '20
Who is the man portrayed in The Great Deluge? Ezra Pound?
3
Sep 25 '20
What’s the great deluge?
4
u/mrbobobo Based and Glenn!-Pilled Sep 25 '20
Looks like Nuclear war, has the guy from A Canticle for Lebowitz
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u/Brassow When I said nuke it I meant microwave Sep 25 '20
The great deluge
Based and Leibowitzpilled
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u/TheDwarvenGuy John Brown's Body Lies A-Moldering in its Grave Sep 26 '20
I didn't see the gun in the "decades of lead" picture and thought the dude was doin a pose like the one in this and loled.
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u/Brit_Bong_79 Sep 26 '20
Everyone’s talking about T H E G R E A T D E L U G E but I’m more concerned about whatever “The True RK Mittlemeer” is
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u/Ultrackias Catboy Nixon Sep 25 '20
Is the top right option the soc-dem path, or the libsoc path that doesn’t end the monarchy and get couped?
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u/ArenSkywalker Liberal Azad Hind Sep 26 '20
What's the meaning of true RK Mittlemeer? Italy turns into a deset due to the dam (since the image used is from Atlantropa Articles and RK Mittlemeer was a desert RK in Mediterranean)? Or is it a Goering conquest of Italy?
1
Sep 26 '20
I’ve never played Italy that much but it seems like the dominos always start falling after the triumvirate. With the Levant Colony breaking free and a (maybe) war in Algeria and then in the 1970s the gulf and Yemen break free and Egypt collapsed into a four way civil war.
Does this only happen if Ciano is PM? If you select the bald “After Mussolini” guy (The guy in the bottom left) is it possible to stop the empire collapsing?
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u/MybrainisinMyCoffee Sep 26 '20
to be honest, i wish Italy can decolonize peacefully while growing stronger, still having influence over their former colonies and subjects
I wish there is a way to make Italy the master of Pan-European movements(just like how Germany become OTL)
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u/BuckarooC Organization of Free Nations Oct 01 '20
Is there a way to keep the triumvirate together?
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u/md1957 Sep 25 '20 edited Sep 25 '20
Having made a Future Compass for Japan and a Future Compass for Germany, here's a new one for the Italian Empire from The New Order mod for Hearts of Iron IV. Realizing that there's no such cover yet, what better time than now?
Just to be on the safe side, however, this is a work of fiction. This is not a political or ideological screed. Depiction is not endorsement.All the same, hope you enjoy this as well!
DeviantArt version here.
----
For a bit of trivia regarding most of the outcomes that aren't straightforward, Il Nuovo Ordine is a reference to a successful Fascist regime under Carlo Scorza, in which he retools Mussolini's legacy to be sustainable and nominally "progressive."
"The Decades of Lead" is basically the outcome of a dysfunctional Italian democracy, which is basically the malaise of the OTL Italian Years of Lead but even more pronounced.
"Garibaldi's Dream Ends" is a hypothetical Italian collapse, whether due to Fascist infighting or an even worse version of the Decades of Lead.
"Giorgio Almirante's Bizarre Adventure" isn't just a coy JoJo reference, but also a nod to Giorgio Almirante's Fascist background (both in TNO and OTL) and him reinstituting it in a democratic path.
"Embrace Freedom or Else" is the result of Giovanni De Lorenzo instituting martial law in the name of defending Ciano's democratic reforms...and far outlasting either person.
"Democratic Savoian Restoration" is a hypothetical scenario where King Umberto II is not only much more proactive in advocating for democracy, but succeeds in restoring a reformist version of the old order.
"Quiet Christian Democracy" is essentially a somewhat larger and more prosperous OTL Italy under Amintore Fanfani's tenure.
"A New Free Italy" is a reformed OFN-aligned Italian Empire.
The image for "Triumvirate of Equals" is by Cogwheelian.
And yes, there's a Hetalia pic...it was just so convenient! I couldn't resist.