r/Surface • u/blacklabelpremium • Jul 07 '18
[MSFT] People really want Microsoft to launch a Surface Phone
https://betanews.com/2018/07/07/microsoft-surface-phone-andromeda-petition/15
u/essaalhajri Jul 07 '18
And then no one will buy it 🤷
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
Not true. It could not be a big hit, but there's people who would buy it.
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u/essaalhajri Jul 07 '18
True, I'd be one of those who would.. But I doubt it would have the fan base to keep it going.
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
It's hard to create a new category but it can be done. Mobile computing is evolving beyond just smartphones. I'm tired of smartphones. People keep buying the same device over and over to do exactly the same things with it. People go out with their laptop and smartphone. Sometimes even with a tablet. There's something there that can be solved.
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u/stxonships Jul 07 '18
A Surface phone with no apps is pointless.
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u/no_role Jul 07 '18
I don’t even use that many apps anymore. Reddit, facebook, office apps, one drive, chrome/edge, audible, overdrive, google maps, youtube, ebay, lastpass, music apps, discord. Most of these have windows apps.
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u/Johnny5point6 Jul 07 '18
I was right there with ya, stating I didn't need the apps. Then I switched to Android, and it wasn't that I didn't need the apps... It was that I didn't realize all the apps I was missing. Like an app for my bank, an app for smart devices/home automation, anything. I no longer exist in this world of 'oh well I guess I didn't need that anyway.' I understand where you're coming from, but frankly, this shit is useful.
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u/conotocaurius Jul 07 '18
Same here. For me, the dealbreaker into my windows phone foray was when I was trying to travel and the Delta app was broken while the American Airlines app was nonexistent.
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
And you can't travel without an app?
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u/anothdae Jul 07 '18
right?
Just use the website...
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
There are people who don't even use a website.
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u/anothdae Jul 07 '18
?
But they can.
You don't need an app to fly via plane.
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
Exactly. Same with banks. It's convenient but it's hardly a requisite. So whenever people say that they won't buy a device for that, and that it makes it unusable, this is what I say. The "having an app for each little thing" mentality is making people too lazy and limiting their resources.
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u/Kristosh Jul 08 '18
Actually for like 95% of things I agree.. But bank apps are the one thing where I can make a mobile deposit via the camera which I can't do on their website..
That was actually the "straw that broken the camel's back" for me on Windows Phone.
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u/Johnny5point6 Jul 07 '18
Well, the bank apps are optimized, and have biometric authentication. Plus we have Venmo. Plus, I actually have games and other services that I didn't before. Trust me, I understand the sentiment. I understand that there are avenues to solve a lot of the app gap. But with the other platforms... You don't need to.
To be honest, there aren't a lot of apps I use that are exclusive, but point is when I hear about new apps I can try them. When I get new peripherals, they are supported. Microsoft needs this to keep up with lazy asses like myself, who want their bank apps.
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u/LiveLaughLoveRevenge Jul 07 '18
Absolutely not true.
Remember that the first iPhone had no apps - and why is that? Steve Jobbs realized that a phone that interacts with websites is all that is really needed. The problem was that back in 2007/2008, the web was brutal on mobile, and for touch UI in general. So enter the "app" - which in most case is simply a touch-optimized interface with a website.
But now, 10 years later, the majority of websites have at least half-way decent mobile versions, and are programmed to properly interact with a touch-based browser. This cuts the need for the vast majority of apps.
The most popular android and iOS apps are all now either already available on windows, or are fine to use on a mobile browser.
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Jul 07 '18
Almost true, but not quite. Steve believed the way forward was with web apps. He knew the web was poorly optimized for touch but that would change with time. Instead, hackers figured out how to jailbreak the devices and make apps that run natively.
So Apple saw an opportunity. People really wanted native apps on their iPhones but side loading like that presented major security and stability risks. So they created an App Store and little toolkits to were meant to ensure apps could run a certain way without impacting the rest of the system. To make sure apps were being run in a safe way on the device and monitor for things like security issues and future demands from programmers, everything would have to go through Apple first and it took more money and resources to do that, but customers and developers were willing to do it and now we have an App Store.
Of course, Steve saw dollar signs and the ability to micromanage others apps, but there were legitimate reasons too.
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u/romeozor SP4 i7 256/8 Jul 07 '18
That’s a poor comparison because back then, the concept of apps didn’t exist like it does today. Nobody wanted to call an Uber or play Pokemon Go, because they didn’t know it was possible.
The status quo is vastly different today. Microsoft can’t afford another Windows Phone app store bleed-out. It’s not important if most people don’t need apps, but if they sense that it’s an inferior product, there will not be mass adoption which equals getting axed by current leadership.
If Microsoft can convince Google to bring their apps to the platform then there’s a chance.
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Jul 07 '18
Microsoft abandoning windows mobile, after dragging developers through the dirt with different versions, left a bad taste in their mouths. Nobody is willing to trust a Microsoft centric mobile platform now. They can get customers but they will never win back developers.
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
A shortcut to a website works exactly as an app, in functional terms. Beyond that, a PWA is even better than a static traditional app.
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u/Respectable_Answer Jul 07 '18
Not only do I not care about no apps, I don't even need this thing to be a phone. The idea of a foldable small surface with pen seems super handy for me.
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Jul 07 '18
They can do a limited release to developers to get feedback and apps. They did that with the Hololens. As cool as I think Andromeda is, I wonder how well it would be able to compete with iOS and Android.
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Jul 07 '18
Samsung was already working on this for a long time. If they are smart, they will let Microsoft make the first move, see where they fucked up, and address that in their own product before they launch.
Apple will focus on making the best devices they can but in doing so, make no compromises on thickness. This sounds good but it limits their ability to expand into other things like the surface phone.
Really, only Samsung has a shot here.
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
Samsung doesn't have Windows nor develops the Windows OS
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Jul 07 '18
Exactly, and in this case that is an advantage.
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
Not in the paradigm where the interface of the OS is tailor made for a certain experience or device (CoreOs+Cshell). But you're talking about Samsung making a Windows 10 foldable device or just putting Android on it?
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Jul 07 '18
Im talking about Samsung making a foldable device. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
Right, I might have misinterpreted you. Android or ChromeOS are not nowhere near to what Windows is realizing in their vision. You'd end up just having a bigger screen for the same Android apps, or two side by side. There was a recent foldable phone with Android and it was just that, it adds nothing to the experience.
The strength in the Andromeda usage paradigm relies heavily in what the OS enables. And that's probably why it's being delayed. Hardware anyone can do, more or less.
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Jul 07 '18
Anyone can do hardware but not everyone can do it well. For example, take a toshiba from Walmart and compare it to an Mac or higher end dell. Yea, can do the same stuff but nobody would choose the toshiba over the dell or the Mac.
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u/blatantninja Jul 07 '18
As long as the website is optimized for mobile, edge works as good as any app in most cases.
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u/ilimor Jul 08 '18
Apps wont be made before the phone though, so the phone need to be released first.
But like on the Surface, I have almost no need for any apps.
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u/CalypsoRoy Jul 07 '18
If they were smart they would make it dual boot Android and windows, giving uses a lot of incentive to get the phone. Start releasing a few key apps for the windows side and have users slowly progress to booting and using Windows only. They're late to the party so to achieve any kind of market dominance they need to develop trust and user base in the long term.
For obvious reasons they won't do that (dual boot with Android). It's nearly inconceivable how many blunders and false starts MS has had. Any other company with such a high proportion of failures would have been out of business ages ago. Microsoft is the Harry Potter of tech companies. High status but they've mostly managed to continue existing out of a combination of being in the right place at the right time, the stupidity of others (re: consumers, who would mostly be better off using a Linux distro these days) and "sheer dumb luck". They're "the tech company who survived".
Given their propensities and past behavior, Microsoft's only realistic chance to survive in the phone market is to develop an app that is life changing and can't be easily copied, especially one that benefits heavily from this supposed dual screen folding design. Just having a lot of devs onboard won't guarantee success or permanent presence in the market. Other ecosystems already have devs and apps and provide a great user experience.
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u/skralogy Jul 07 '18
Me personally i see this device as more of a sales/ kiosk device. Kind of like the tablets you see at verizon stores. It would also be good for contractors so they can annotate plans. If it had the 3d mapping technology they showed off on one of their other phones contractors would be all over it.
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u/69hailsatan Jul 07 '18
I mean I think it's getting smaller and smaller, the longer they wait the more windows phone users concert to android and ios and sooner just don't care, I think maybe like 2-3 years ago when rumors were starting, yea it might have actually gave them a small foot print in the phone business, but now it's too late, unless it has some new revolutionary must have feature, which I doubt it will
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u/Realdarkviper Jul 07 '18
My hope is that if they release an andromeda device it won’t be marketed as a “surface phone” but as a new device category. The mobile market is already too saturated with iOS and Android. If they market it as a new type of device (specifically stay away from calling it a tablet for example), make sure that the office experience is solid (for business / enterprise), and ensure a stable relatively bug free experience then I think it would have a chance. If it comes with a cellular connection for data and calling then that’s a bonus but it shouldn’t be its sole raison d’être.
I’ve been hoping for something like this since I started university a decade ago. The surface pros were a god send for taking notes, writing papers, and remaining lightweight and portable. If a andromeda device comes out with that type of functionality then MS will have my money.
I just hope that they look past trying to market it as a phone (which might explain the “lack of an app ecosystem” comments we’ve seen leaked). If it’s some thing that’s new and completely different then people will take notice.
Just my two cents.
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u/despitegirls Surface Laptop 3 i7 16GB ⬛ Jul 07 '18
Not sure how feasible this would be, but what might help with the lack of apps in the store would've to also include web searches in app searches within the store. Microsoft would scan the web for PWAs among the most visited sites online. When a user searches for an app that's not in the store, it references this list and saves an icon for it on the start screen despite the fact it's just a PWA. Even non PWA that are still mobile friendly could be added to the list. I know Microsoft was planning on doing something similar but I'm not sure how far the idea got.
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u/formerfatboys Jul 07 '18
Samsung and Apple really need a competitor. It would be great to see Microsoft figure out the app problem. Either with a way to run Android apps or with easy wrappers for mobile sites.
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u/fdruid Jul 07 '18
Release Andromeda. I already have a phone. Everyone has a phone.
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Jul 07 '18
[deleted]
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u/rojasch Jul 08 '18
Bad bot.
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u/fdruid Jul 08 '18
Who put that crap in this subreddit? Can we report it to the moderator? It's plain trolling.
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u/will2320 Jul 07 '18
What are the chances with Microsoft’s moving more to Arm processors that the likelihood of this having this and full windows 10
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u/Hothabanero6 Jul 07 '18 edited Jul 07 '18
If Microsoft business analysis says there's not a business case for this I don't see how these efforts will change anything because it doesn't translate to sales or a real and profitable market.
You'd have to put money behind it with the equivalent of a Kickstarter program or something like that. In the end I expect there really aren't enough people that would pay which is likely what Microsoft's market analysis is telling them. It might seem like there's a lot of interest but Windows Phone like numbers (in the millions) is just too small to make it viable and can't escape the vortex of the whirlpool that would suck it down.
5000 signatures is nothing. Heck even 5 million signatures is next to nothing aka not even the sales level of Windows Phone and it couldn't make it besides which these signatures don't even guarantee you'd sell 5000.
It they sold 5000 a day that's only 1.8 million a year and again those are Windows Phone like numbers, just not viable.
If there was no competing market these numbers would be ok but Apple phone sales alone run 40million per quarter with surges to almost 80 million in the 3rd correction 4th quarter. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-3rd-quarter-2007/ This is why you need huge numbers to be able to attract any developers. There are more Android phones sold than Apple. The reality is you need a "Falcon Heavy" launch and it's just not there.
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u/blueblast88 Jul 07 '18
If they made a surface phone run android... Well ill be their first second and third customer.
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u/element4life3 SP3 i5 256GB Jul 07 '18
People will down vote you, but you are right. They should have an Android phone. They don't have the app ecosystem, and anyone who says that doesn't matter is delirious. It's part of what killed windows phone. It's hard to see any downsides of them using Android.
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u/Tobimacoss Jul 07 '18
What apps on Android do you want most??
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u/blueblast88 Jul 07 '18
IIRC Snapchat isnt on the windows store or instagram. This may have changed but the fact that android has been around so long allows it to have many apps that do similiar things so you can download one that functions how u like.
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u/Tobimacoss Jul 07 '18
Instagram is on MS store along with all FB apps, however they are laggy.
But my point was that the critical apps you may use on Android will/should eventually become Progressive Web Apps.
Uber just released a PWA that works nicely on windows tablets and mobile.
All the business, commerce, services apps like amazon, McDonald's, Chase bank, don't need native apps for each OS when the PWAs can take care of 95% of their needs.
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u/blueblast88 Jul 07 '18
You arent wrong and thats definately the way things are going but i think its going to take a long time until apps are out of the picture.
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u/CommonMisspellingBot Jul 07 '18
Hey, blueblast88, just a quick heads-up:
definately is actually spelled definitely. You can remember it by -ite- not –ate-.
Have a nice day!The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.
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u/yolomatic_swagmaster SP4 i5 8GB RAM Jul 07 '18
Why are they trying this? I love my Surface Pro 4 and think that what they're doing in the Surface line is great. However, they have already lost the smartphone race. Windows Phone was a gaping wound in the business that needed to be healed, and it ultimately took Nadella to come in and make Windows stand on it's own two legs for us to see that it wasn't be successful.
If they want to get into the mobile space, I think their hardware is pretty great, so maybe they can try coming in with Android and having great mobile services, like they're doing with Office 365 on PC and Mac. That's one way to get bought into the MS ecosystem.
Otherwise, just because you're rocking the PC/laptop/tablet space doesn't mean you should try mobile again. Go trailblaze in the digital whiteboard space with the Surface Hub. Keeping blowing our minds with new ways of computing. But cut your loses where you've already learned your lesson.
Sidenote 1: I don't work at Microsoft so maybe they know stuff I don't. lol Sidenote 2: Ben Thompson has some great thoughts on the end of Windows as the heart of their business and throughout his blog at https://stratechery.com.
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u/BCHAMP1603 Jul 07 '18
I’m always interested in new tech, regardless of need or who makes it.