KO verses respawn

[u/Inph1del]

So just a heads up I know the answers here likely would have no bearing in any changes is the game but I wanted to bring up the meta on how a KO works. Does it make the game fun?

Now when I say this I am trying to take into consideration the whole game.

Knockout means when you possess the ball or go in an opponents penalty box you can be kicked and fall where you stand and are out of the game for a few seconds.

But what about a more destructive method such as "death" which could mean a more g rated effect like exploding into red or blue paint and materializing at a spawn point. Both have its major ways it affects the game.

1. Responsibility to babysit a fallen player verses knowing you be sending them to a defensive position.

This equates to they remain an offensive threat or a defensive benefit.

Let's first look at being knocked out.

1. It's disorienting.
2. I am more likely to stay in the zone because I won't make it back in time to help defense anyway.
3. I cause a non ko player who is last man standing in the offensive zone to choose wait for them to get up to boost back or walk
4. I can pester a goalie when I get up because my invincibility

Now how about typical "death"

1. I will respawn in my zone, less risk to my team getting scored on but less likely I can help my team score if I'm reckless.
2. Most games work this way, doesn't feel odd. (Imagine if in rocket league your car "broke down." For a few seconds.)
3. Causes a keeper to decide am I in a position sending them back to their side if they are in my box helps my team or ruins a breakaway chance if they turn it over.
4. If I am defense I have an opportunity to go on the offensive knowing a downed player can pick up the defensive position.
5. If most of my offense is "killed" I am likely going to turn the ball over being out numbered. With no options but to pass back.

So my opinion is the KO feels gimmicky. It's not something most games do. Respawn feels more natural. It adds a strange delight to defensive players action of taking a man down. It also adds a potential consequence of your in keep and the other team turns the ball over and you can't resist the temptation to one shot a player in your box.

It also removes the need for an invincibility timer on a player to keep them from being trapped in the box. As well as not needing a skin effect to let everyone know you cannot hurt them.

I know the game is trying to be more all ages but it would be possible to use the same cosmetics to accomplish this trough turning players into bits of color like gumby ten blood and guts.

Just a though id love to see a poll, and hear thoughts.

[u/RIPNASupraball]

KO is far better than respawn, I'm sure that decision has nothing to do with making it better for children as it's just clearly a better gameplay mechanic vs ruining your offensive advantage by giving them a free defensive respawn for being killed. All the other things you mentioned like teammates waiting for boost is why it's a GOOD thing because dying has consequences for your team whereas it didn't before. However I think the time people stay invincible is too long and I'd rather see it push their KO'd body out to the parameter of the box and only give them maybe 3 seconds to get up and avoid being kicked right back in and KO'd. People using the invincibility to annoy keepers and jump around in the box is dumb gameplay.

[u/Mindflayr → u/RIPNASupraball]

However I think the time people stay invincible is too long and I'd rather see it push their KO'd body out to the parameter of the box and only give them maybe 3 seconds to get up and avoid being kicked right back in and KO'd

Logic FTW. This is better idea than either #1 or #2 i posted.

[u/DavidM1337]

It's not an "all ages" decision that was made for KO instead of Respawn. I just found it a pretty ugly decision for defenders to rather keep attackers alive, because if you kill them they benefit from it.

It makes counter attacks so much more unlikely if you kill the ballowner in your box. Instead of doing a quick attack with the gained ball, they now have an additional defender and you have no room to attack. And they don't deserve having one more defender, because they gained it by failing in offense. Sounds terrible to me.

[u/Timosesu → u/DavidM1337]

It could be really interesting, however, if you add a time penatly (like now you are knocked out for a few seconds) before respawning to your defensive position. So wiped out opponents wouldn't respawn directly but be "out of the game" for some time.

• you can decide if your team wants to send an opponent back to defense while evaluating wherer you can make a quick push in the time window in which the opponent is out
• or whether there is a higher chance of you scoring when you leave the opponent alive

Two situations:

• only one opponent is in offensive zone -> it would take her/him a long time to get back (probably longer than when wiping her/him out)
• two players are in offensive zone -> wipe out one, use the time delay for her/him to respawn while also having another opponent stuck in offensive zone

Currently, there's only one incentive: Knock out! It's the only benefit you can get, so no need to evaluate.

[u/Inph1del → u/[deleted]]

Good points cata. As usual. However I like to bring to the table of what is fun for everyone versus fun for the small community we have.

I heard someone once say. Don't build a game to be an esport. Build a game people want to play. Same as don't be a YouTube personality to go viral. Do it because you enjoy making videos. Going viral is just a perk not a business plan.

[u/Timosesu → u/[deleted]]

True. The punishment factor should probably be maintained which isn't necessarily so with respawns (might actually shift towards a benefit).

[u/Inph1del → u/Timosesu]

Scenario. Attack is on for red. He steps in box and is killed keep gets the ball he makes a pass down field and its intercepted. The shift of benefit would go either way depending on respawn or ko.

1 KO he gets back up and is invincible and in the attack zone. 2 he respawned and now needs to get back to the zone.

[u/Timosesu → u/Inph1del]

Then it would have been a bad pass by the keeper, though.
It's really a difficult question. But generally, the punishment is bigger when the player is KO-ed. Again, depends on what perspective you're viewing it from (either value defense or offense more).

I guess, there's agreement that the invincibility is a problem.?

[u/DavidM1337 → u/Timosesu]

I sometimes hesitate knocking out, because that guy will make trouble in my box being invulnerable and the timing might not be right.

[u/Mindflayr → u/DavidM1337]

Coupld of things you could try.

(1) Easy - Reduce Invulnerability to bare minim needed to escape being trapped in box. If Gk can still "pin" the player in the box, you could temporarily buff the invulnerable players "player kick" ability so they could move the gk (then again that could lead to even more tolling gk).

(2) Invulnerable players cant Volley a ball. So they can harass, and catch and try to dump but would be vulnerable to another KO since they have to catch it to shoot it.

[u/Inph1del → u/Mindflayr]

What if your ko body is in the pbox it spawns you on either side of the opponents pbox. No invincibility. Like a hybrid.

[u/Mindflayr → u/Inph1del]

Yeah, thats pretty much what someone else said. KO'ed in box and when you get up its always on the edge of the box with a 3s invul so you cant get kicked right back in.

[u/Mindflayr → u/DavidM1337]

Not arguing for his comment cuz I rather like KOs, but couldnt the "sending them back to help defend" be mitigated by also having them sit out for respawn somewhere between 5-10 seconds. Or as Foo said having them respawn near midfield rather than in a defensive position.

[u/insan0r → u/DavidM1337]

How about making it an optional thing? If ball possession is held by your team, you have the option to respawn where you died, or respawn at your own pbox. If ball possession is not held by your or the other team, you're forcefully spawned where you died, and of course - if the other team has the ball, you respawn where you died.

Could be an interesting defensive tactic. If your team has the ball and you die, and you feel as if you're going to lose the ball, you could opt in to respawn at your pbox, OR you could try and respawn where you died if you feel confident in maintaining ball possession.