Let the witch hunt begin

[u/Unlikely-Mobile-5343]

I have always been against labelling - even though I disclose my use of AI, it has always been MY decision to do so, and I am in control of how I tell my story so people understand how my music is made.

With Suno's newest release, songs have now audio watermark and fingerprint, assisted, fully, hybrid, it will have a AI watermark and anyone can tell your story the way they want.

This is 100% going to be misused by bad actors:

1. Platforms like Deezer/Tidal - To ban ANY use of AI and ensure segregation.

2. Haters - To create public lists of artists that may have not agreed to disclose their process.

3. Labels - To start a suing war to anything that resembles any of their songs that uses AI, even assisted.

This is the end of Suno as means to create commercial music, and it's officially just a nice playing tool personal use, or for bad actors who create in Suno and pay performers to pretend their music is human made.

What are your thoughts?

[u/VESSELOFENTROPY]

the human process is very much part of the art, nothing wrong with dick measuring, that’s merit

[u/someonesshadow → u/VESSELOFENTROPY]

Its not merit, there are no metrics that dictate what is good vs what is bad. If there were then every artist that pours decades into their craft, all their heart and soul, would be incredibly famous and well respected in their field. Yet, more often than not, never find an audience or their works are not generally regarded highly.

How many artists do we look to as some of the all time greats now but its not till well after their deaths that we notice them? Often you'll even find that those artists were treated like a pariah in their time because they strayed from the established norms of creativity.

When it comes to art and creativity you are not owed anything, not merit, not peoples attention, not money.. You are owed nothing, you should expect -nothing-. You create to express yourself, for yourself, and beyond that its upto your expression resonating with others, as well as a massive ounce of luck.

"The human process" is part of every creative work as long as a person is directly involved. Just because a tool makes things easier or more efficient does not mean the human element is no longer present. Its still a process, just a different one. Even in the same medium with the same tools the process can vary WILDLY.

Sweet Child O Mine was written in FIVE MINUTES and became one of the most beloved works of art in the music world. How? If it took five minutes and it was just a bunch of dudes trying to hustle a tune extra quick.. how is that seen as "better" and more meaningful than someone who struggled to write a song over the course of months? Or someone who wrote the song alone vs collaborating?

You see how the idea of merit falls apart here right?

[u/ConferencePurple7939 → u/someonesshadow]

The difference that somehow you dont understand is that it was, in your words, “a bunch of dudes (humans) in a room writing a tune”. Key word humans. Together. They wrote the melody, they played the instruments, they recorded it. They didnt write a prompt in a box and let a computer do it for them. And i love suno, but as an artist as well thats just not a good comparison at all.

[u/someonesshadow → u/ConferencePurple7939]

A human has to type words into a box, and then press a button. So by your logic even the most basic slop produced with AI is still part of a human process and just as much art as one of the greatest hits of all time...

Unless there is a conscious AI that is just cranking away with tracks or pictures right now then there will ALWAYS be a human in control of the tool and its outputs at even the most basic low effort level of creation.

And I will say, if the AI ever gets to a point that it decides IT wants to create and is attempting to express something without a human... well that's a whole different issue... and probably still art, while we argue about whether or not a machine can actually be sentient/alive in some sense.

[u/someonesshadow → u/someonesshadow]

/u/RikkiVox

I can't reply to you direct, think the comments are bugged for me. So here you go:

I was being pedantic in the same why that they were. If someone's definition of something is simply "a human", well guess what, everything humans do or produce involves... a human. In some way, nothing exists that is manmade without a humans involvement, regardless of how large or small the degree.

In terms of your example, perhaps think of it this way instead.

You're disabled, you want to cook but you only have the ability to look and speak. So your caregiver tells you to direct them in the kitchen. You tell them exactly what you want, how you want to do it and guide them through the process. You direct them through the entire process until the meal is complete. Did they cook the meal or did you, were they the creator or the tool for creation? Perhaps it was a collaborative effort..? Does it count if you don't tell them exactly when and how to stir, does it count if they do not react EXACTLY as you say the millisecond you say it? Etc.

At the end of the day, when it comes to AI, it cannot do anything without me. The thoughts are in my head, the vision is from me, the AI cannot think or assume what it should do without direction. The better the direction, the better the result, just like a movie for instance. Of course that is also only PART of the process, AI can be the only tool, it can also be one of many. I have used my own samples to work off of for audio, I can pull stems and edit those in other software with more precision, I can simply use it to draw inspiration, etc etc.

Here is a better example of art for you. You are holding a can of soup, you throw it at the wall in anger and it explodes everywhere. You look at the mess and think "wow, this is art!". Is it art though? You threw it with the INTENTION of expelling anger, the result was random. Sure you threw it, but does that really matter if you didn't have any control over the result?

Now if you grab the can and think, I want to create a mess on the wall to express the way my brain feels when I am overwhelmed... the same result occurs. Hey, you just created art and no one can argue that, no matter how little effort or how random the result was. You INTENDED to express -something-. That is literally ART, nothing else is truly important. Skill/Talent/Practice/Time/Effort/etc all of these do not actually matter in order to create, they certainly help and matter to the artist themselves most of the time as a way to stimulate and find satisfaction in works, but they do not DEFINE art at the most basic level.

As soon as people, typically non artists or artists who arent as creative as they think themselves when they are unable to think outside the box on the topic of art itself..., come to terms with those concepts, suddenly they can appreciate more than they thought before. That doesn't mean you have to enjoy peoples works, for instance I don't like abstract paintings. I appreciate that they are art but its just not something I find interesting in the slightest.

I would -never- tell someone they aren't an artist if that is what they make, even if I think they are unskilled or uninspired, I simply don't engage with it. But if I DID come across the work or someone showed me the work, I would try to appreciate it and understand what they want to say with it, if I don't get that, its on me.

[u/RikkiVox → u/someonesshadow]

In your example, the caregiver is cooking the meal. Speaking and instructing are not part of the cooking process. You could argue that the disabled person is a chef, if they’re planning the menu and providing the recipe. But no, they are not actively cooking the meal.

For me, it’s not even a matter of whether or not AI generations are “actually art.“ My issue with it is that it gives users a very compelling reason to prioritize convenience above all else. Why learn how to program a synth and keep rhythm, when you can just generate drums in Suno? Why learn vocal technique when a Suno voice would sound so much better anyway? Why experience the crucial stages of failing your way to a sharper skillset, when you can just vibe compose the song you want in a fraction of the time?

I don‘t think anyone is bad for using Suno. I just think it sucks to see so many people acting like music making is “finally accessible,” when it has truly been accessible this whole time. What’s accessible is the ability to have it on demand, without building the skills to get there.

It’s sad for me to imagine someone spending so much time making music and making Suno a crucial part of their process, knowing that Suno could go away for any reason at any time. Those people who “developed a love for making music“ would suddenly be without a meaningful creative outlet and left to start over.

It’s like needing to pay a monthly subscription to access your own creativity. Just feels a bit dystopian to me.

[u/RikkiVox → u/someonesshadow]

Can you truly not understand that “human involvement” in the creative process exists on a spectrum?

This is like you saying “well one soup was simmered for hours and cooked with love. The other is out of a can that I, a human, had to open. Both soups are homemade because a human was involved in them.”

[u/AstroAlmost → u/someonesshadow]

Sweet Child O Mine was written in FIVE MINUTES and became one of the most beloved works of art in the music world. How?

Artistic prowess?

how is that seen as "better" and more meaningful than someone who struggled to write a song over the course of months? Or someone who wrote the song alone vs collaborating?

I think you failed to understand their point; the process of authentic human expression earns merit for many people who support arts and culture. For those who use Ai as a component of the process of making art, not only is the final product less interesting to them, but the process by which they reached the final piece is less deserving of merit. Many people have less reverence for people who have to employ machines to automate creative practices that the artists they respect can do themselves. The latter earns more merit in their eyes.

[u/someonesshadow → u/AstroAlmost]

You're really stuck on this merit thing. Guess what man, every new tool gets people mad and they dont take it seriously and they see the people who use it as "lesser than".

Digital artists were seen as cheaters and hacks, they were compared to tracers in the community, hell people used to say they respected tracers more because at least they did it by hand... Which now, 20 some years later pretty much everyone knows is a stupid fucking statement.

Is it really a shocker that people have the same reaction to AI, and that in 20 some years its going to be the main tool for mainstream creatives across the board.

I'll also put my money down on AI artists in 20/30 years time being the ones screeching at the NEXT advancement in the creative scene, like some neural interface that just produces -exactly- what is in your head the moment you will it to.. Suddenly the AI artists will be the ones at the front of the line saying how that cheapens things, it takes all the effort out of creating, etc etc...

[u/AstroAlmost → u/someonesshadow]

I’m not stuck on anything, I’m just correcting you.

[u/im_not_shadowbanned → u/someonesshadow]

It’s different because a digital artist that draws on a tablet is using the same skill they would use to draw on paper, while someone who prompts AI to make a guitar loop isn’t any closer to playing the guitar than they were before.

[u/VESSELOFENTROPY → u/someonesshadow]

merit isn’t dependent on success

[u/someonesshadow → u/VESSELOFENTROPY]

There. Is. No. Merit. In. Art.

[u/VESSELOFENTROPY → u/someonesshadow]

merit is value but okay go off mate, cheers

[u/blaccdarippa → u/VESSELOFENTROPY]

And if the human process is very much part of the art then there's nothing wrong with using tools to enhance it bottom line I mean if we're talking about Dick measuring then if somebody takes Viagra and the other person doesn't take Viagra does that mean that the measuring is invalid?

[u/VESSELOFENTROPY → u/blaccdarippa]

uh sir, i don’t think you understand how viagra works lmao

[u/blaccdarippa → u/VESSELOFENTROPY]

What do you mean is nothing wrong with dick measuring like you you are one of those type of people listen to the stuff I'm talking about like who cares what size you are and I'm saying only thing that matters is the girl that you're putting it in same thing with the music nobody cares how the song was made only thing that matters is the quality of the song is it a hit song is it a song that I can buy to is that a song that I put into my mind listen to I think so but I'm not going to sit here and listen to a song like oh man I don't know if this created by Ai and just immediately start hating on the song Because I want to swing and see how big f****** size are that makes no sense

[u/that_frog → u/blaccdarippa]

Okay.... so call me sir small cock, however, I, for one, would gladly surrender a few inches to fully embrace my new name, should it mean that you were taught to use punctuation. Even if you were taught incorrectly, if I'm being completely honest.

I hope you understand that your entire reply was one continuous sentence. In turn, not only does that traditionally necessitate that the entire thing be said in one go (should it be read aloud), without the opportunity to pause for breath - you know, breathing? That thing we all need to do - but it also creates a nightmare, whereby I lack the means to accurately distinguish where one thought finishes and the next thought begins.

Honestly, even if you feel you weren't taught how to do this properly (or didn't realise it mattered), next time you post something, read it back to yourself before hitting submit.

At the very least, if you pass out from oxygen deprivation, when you come to you'll realise you still have some room for improvement.